Is this legal?

[Ravi]

Is it legal for the police to use a minor to entrap someone? And no, this has nothing to do with sex...get your mind out of the gutter.

If it is legal...why is it legal?

 

[Immanuel]

I don't think "entrapment" is legal in any case, but then one must define, as the courts do, exactly what is entrapment.

Might this be considered, "entrapment"? If so, more power to them.

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Immie

 

[Ravi]

hmmm...I really don't want to get into sexual entrapment, Immie, though I suppose it is the same thing.

I guess my question is...can you go up against cops for entrapment when they hire a minor to do the entrapping?

 

[Mini 14]

Yes, it is.

I'm a gun dealer. Happens all the time. They'll send in a kid who is under 21 and have him try to buy a handgun. Or they'll send in a couple, one minor, one adult. During the sale, it becomes obvious that the adult is purchasing a gun to give to the minor. Once had it happen where an adult was trying to buy a handgun to give to the minor.

We don't even let people by guns as gifts for relatives in my stores. If we catch wind that the gun is for someone else, THAT person has to fill out the 4473, or no deal. We sell enough guns (thank you, Obama!) that I don't need to sell another one that badly. Gun and ammo sales have exploded in the past year and a half. Obama truly is the best thing to happen to guns since Oliver Winchester.

They ABC does it all the time as well. They'll send minors in to buy beer or cigarettes, then bust the proprietor if he sells.

 

[Ravi]

Yes, it is.

I'm a gun dealer. Happens all the time. They'll send in a kid who is under 21 and have him try to buy a handgun. Or they'll send in a couple, one minor, one adult. During the sale, it becomes obvious that the adult is purchasing a gun to give to the minor. Once had it happen where an adult was trying to buy a handgun to give to the minor.

We don't even let people by guns as gifts for relatives in my stores. If we catch wind that the gun is for someone else, THAT person has to fill out the 4473, or no deal. We sell enough guns (thank you, Obama!) that I don't need to sell another one that badly. Gun and ammo sales have exploded in the past year and a half. Obama truly is the best thing to happen to guns since Oliver Winchester.

They ABC does it all the time as well. They'll send minors in to buy beer or cigarettes, then bust the proprietor if he sells.

mmmkay...so why is it legal for the cops to pay a minor to do something that is illegal?

 

[Immanuel]

hmmm...I really don't want to get into sexual entrapment, Immie, though I suppose it is the same thing.

I guess my question is...can you go up against cops for entrapment when they hire a minor to do the entrapping?

Well, I'm not sure what the premise is about then.

As I said, I do not think "entrapment" is legal at all, but defining what is entrapment and what is not entrapment is the issue.

Immie

 

[Ravi]

Okay...say the cops hire a minor to buy liquor in order to entrap someone into selling liquor to a minor.

How is what the cops did legal? Simply because they are cops?

 

[Mini 14]

mmmkay...so why is it legal for the cops to pay a minor to do something that is illegal?

It is how they regulate certain industries. To prove a crime (not just an oversight, or an "accident") either the person has to actually be a minor, or present ID that could reasonably be noticed as altered or false (at least that's how it affects my business). If a 24 year-old presents me an ID that says he is 22, and ATF approves his 4473, I'm not sure that I have actually committed a crime, though I'm certain the ATF or FBI could find a way to fine me for it.

It happens, especially with guns and ammo, alcohol and tobacco. They shop all of us almost every day. I don't consider it "entrapment," as much as the only logical way they regulate these two industries.

I'll say this: I would not want the job ATF has. I know my shops are the exception, as we really go out of our way to sell "by the book" or we just don't sell the damn thing. But I also know that there are shops out there that are just about the profit margin, and if they can make $50 fast and easy, they'll risk the ATF and FBI tracking it down. Not me.

It is a sellers market since Obama took office, so for every gun sale I decide to back out of, there are 7-8 other customers lined up to buy the gun anyway, and they have proper documentation or don't make me uncomfortable about transferring a firearm to them.

The biggest problems ATF monitors are sales to minors, and "straw sales" where someone purchases a gun for someone else who probably isn't able to purchase it themself. Not sure there is any way to monitor that other than to hire people to come into our stores and see if we'll sell.

 

[ConHog]

hmmm...I really don't want to get into sexual entrapment, Immie, though I suppose it is the same thing.

I guess my question is...can you go up against cops for entrapment when they hire a minor to do the entrapping?

Well, I'm not sure what the premise is about then.

As I said, I do not think "entrapment" is legal at all, but defining what is entrapment and what is not entrapment is the issue.

Immie

I don't like the idea of entrapment either. To me it seems like you're almost enticing a person to commit a crime. Like putting a beautiful undercover LEO at a bar to act like a hooker and then bust some poor jerk who tried to obtain her services. If she hadn't been there would the guy have committed a crime at all?

I don't like it.

 

[2Parties]

They do it with drugs all the time.

 

[Mini 14]

hmmm...I really don't want to get into sexual entrapment, Immie, though I suppose it is the same thing.

I guess my question is...can you go up against cops for entrapment when they hire a minor to do the entrapping?

Well, I'm not sure what the premise is about then.

As I said, I do not think "entrapment" is legal at all, but defining what is entrapment and what is not entrapment is the issue.

Immie

I don't like the idea of entrapment either. To me it seems like you're almost enticing a person to commit a crime. Like putting a beautiful undercover LEO at a bar to act like a hooker and then bust some poor jerk who tried to obtain her services. If she hadn't been there would the guy have committed a crime at all?

I don't like it.

This is the crux.

I don't consider what they're doing to me, and to liquor stores "entrapment" at all. They're policing and regulating the industries. I really don't see any other way for them to do it either, and I support them in doing so.

"Entrapment" is a different thing. In order to answer the question ravi asked, I think we'd really have to know at least a few more details than have been shared with us so far.

 

[Ravi]

mmmkay...so why is it legal for the cops to pay a minor to do something that is illegal?

It is how they regulate certain industries. To prove a crime (not just an oversight, or an "accident") either the person has to actually be a minor, or present ID that could reasonably be noticed as altered or false (at least that's how it affects my business). If a 24 year-old presents me an ID that says he is 22, and ATF approves his 4473, I'm not sure that I have actually committed a crime, though I'm certain the ATF or FBI could find a way to fine me for it.

It happens, especially with guns and ammo, alcohol and tobacco. They shop all of us almost every day. I don't consider it "entrapment," as much as the only logical way they regulate these two industries.

I'll say this: I would not want the job ATF has. I know my shops are the exception, as we really go out of our way to sell "by the book" or we just don't sell the damn thing. But I also know that there are shops out there that are just about the profit margin, and if they can make $50 fast and easy, they'll risk the ATF and FBI tracking it down. Not me.

It is a sellers market since Obama took office, so for every gun sale I decide to back out of, there are 7-8 other customers lined up to buy the gun anyway, and they have proper documentation or don't make me uncomfortable about transferring a firearm to them.

The biggest problems ATF monitors are sales to minors, and "straw sales" where someone purchases a gun for someone else who probably isn't able to purchase it themself. Not sure there is any way to monitor that other than to hire people to come into our stores and see if we'll sell.

You didn't answer my question. That they do it to regulate things isn't an answer to is it legal.

 

[George Costanza]

Okay...say the cops hire a minor to buy liquor in order to entrap someone into selling liquor to a minor.

How is what the cops did legal? Simply because they are cops?

Yes, it's legal. They (the cops) do it all the time.

Entrapment: A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime.

The key to entrapment has to do with the willingness (or lack thereof) of the suspect to commit the crime. A dope peddler is standing on the street corner, eyeing everyone that comes along to see if they want to buy drugs. An undercover narc comes along, buys drugs and then busts the drug seller for selling drugs. This is not entrapment, because of the second sentence in the quote, above.

If a guy gets intercepted by a minor as he is going into a liquor store and the kid asks the guy to buy booze for him and the guy does, the guy can be convicted of providing liquor to a minor. Personally, I think this is very close to entrapment if not outright entrapment because, as the guy got out of his car, he had no intention whatsoever of committing any type of crime. The idea for the commission of the crime had its origin solely in the police setup.

So how can the guy be convicted? Don't ask me - but it happens all the time. I guess maybe it's because the defendant usually pleads out rather than go through everything it takes to present an entrapment defense - he would have to go to trial, and few guys want to do that.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Okay...say the cops hire a minor to buy liquor in order to entrap someone into selling liquor to a minor.

How is what the cops did legal? Simply because they are cops?

Pretty much.

 

[2Parties]

There are 2 sets of rules. It's always been that way...

 

[Mini 14]

You didn't answer my question. That they do it to regulate things isn't an answer to is it legal.

Yes, it is legal in the instances I'm sharing. Now, not knowing the specifics of the situation you're asking about, its hard for me to have an opinion.

But yes, there are certain instances (more than the two I'm most familiar with) which have been defined by the courts where it is legal and acceptable for LE to utilize minors to enforce law. I imagine (though I can't say for sure) that the mechanics of it are dictated by the Child Labor Laws, and also that LE does not put a minor in position of grave danger.

 

[ConHog]

Okay...say the cops hire a minor to buy liquor in order to entrap someone into selling liquor to a minor.

How is what the cops did legal? Simply because they are cops?

Yes, it's legal. They (the cops) do it all the time.

Entrapment: A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime.

The key to entrapment has to do with the willingness (or lack thereof) of the suspect to commit the crime. A dope peddler is standing on the street corner, eyeing everyone that comes along to see if they want to buy drugs. An undercover narc comes along, buys drugs and then busts the drug seller for selling drugs. This is not entrapment, because of the second sentence in the quote, above.

If a guy gets intercepted by a minor as he is going into a liquor store and the kid asks the guy to buy booze for him and the guy does, the guy can be convicted of providing liquor to a minor. Personally, I think this is very close to entrapment if not outright entrapment because, as the guy got out of his car, he had no intention whatsoever of committing any type of crime. The idea for the commission of the crime had its origin solely in the police setup.

So how can the guy be convicted? Don't ask me - but it happens all the time. I guess maybe it's because the defendant usually pleads out rather than go through everything it takes to present an entrapment defense - he would have to go to trial, and few guys want to do that.

It's a tricky situation in something like that. I mean what if a man is just minding his own business and a minor offers him sex. Can he have sex with her and then later cry that he entrapped her? No I don't think so.

 

[Immanuel]

hmmm...I really don't want to get into sexual entrapment, Immie, though I suppose it is the same thing.

I guess my question is...can you go up against cops for entrapment when they hire a minor to do the entrapping?

Well, I'm not sure what the premise is about then.

As I said, I do not think "entrapment" is legal at all, but defining what is entrapment and what is not entrapment is the issue.

Immie

I don't like the idea of entrapment either. To me it seems like you're almost enticing a person to commit a crime. Like putting a beautiful undercover LEO at a bar to act like a hooker and then bust some poor jerk who tried to obtain her services. If she hadn't been there would the guy have committed a crime at all?

I don't like it.

But in that case, he probably would have. If she hadn't been there, he would have found a hooker on the streets. My layman's knowledge of this is that as long as the undercover LEO does not make the offer then it is not entrapment.

Immie

 

[Ravi]

Okay...say the cops hire a minor to buy liquor in order to entrap someone into selling liquor to a minor.

How is what the cops did legal? Simply because they are cops?

Yes, it's legal. They (the cops) do it all the time.

Entrapment: A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime.

The key to entrapment has to do with the willingness (or lack thereof) of the suspect to commit the crime. A dope peddler is standing on the street corner, eyeing everyone that comes along to see if they want to buy drugs. An undercover narc comes along, buys drugs and then busts the drug seller for selling drugs. This is not entrapment, because of the second sentence in the quote, above.

If a guy gets intercepted by a minor as he is going into a liquor store and the kid asks the guy to buy booze for him and the guy does, the guy can be convicted of providing liquor to a minor. Personally, I think this is very close to entrapment if not outright entrapment because, as the guy got out of his car, he had no intention whatsoever of committing any type of crime. The idea for the commission of the crime had its origin solely in the police setup.

So how can the guy be convicted? Don't ask me - but it happens all the time. I guess maybe it's because the defendant usually pleads out rather than go through everything it takes to present an entrapment defense - he would have to go to trial, and few guys want to do that.

So if you have a reasonable assumption that the purchaser is legally allowed to purchase...it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that the cops hired someone not legally allowed to purchase?

I dunno...I can't wrap my head around it.

 

[ConHog]

Well, I'm not sure what the premise is about then.

As I said, I do not think "entrapment" is legal at all, but defining what is entrapment and what is not entrapment is the issue.

Immie

I don't like the idea of entrapment either. To me it seems like you're almost enticing a person to commit a crime. Like putting a beautiful undercover LEO at a bar to act like a hooker and then bust some poor jerk who tried to obtain her services. If she hadn't been there would the guy have committed a crime at all?

I don't like it.

But in that case, he probably would have. If she hadn't been there, he would have found a hooker on the streets. My layman's knowledge of this is that as long as the undercover LEO does not make the offer then it is not entrapment.

Immie

I have ZERO experience is obtaining a hooker without risking arrest, so...........