Is there a libertarian approach to poverty that *doesn't* come down to "just stop being poor"?

[koshergrl]

My relative. I was looking for work while I waited to ship out to basic training.

well ppl who work their asses off frequently have less than lazy bums who don't. That's what happens when as a society you force working people to provide deadbeats a standard of living that they can't afford themselves.

I'm not really even sure what you're saying here. Are you condemning her for working a full time job or me for needing a place to stay and find work before enlisting?

Neither. I'm pointing out that working people are forced into a lower standard of living because they support a welfare class that has more disposable income than they have. Livin the dream.

 

[SAYIT]

My point is simple- the "poor" in the US have a very high standard of living compared to most of the world.

That is BECAUSE of our social safety nets.

Which seem, for too many, to act as an anchor rather than a safety net.
.

Let me tell you, if you don't help the poor, things will get worse. MUCH worse. The poor people don't care what you think about them. They care about surviving. If you leave them with nothing, they will do what they feel they need to in order to survive. You want to see REAL ghettos and slums?

We already have real ghettos and slums but we go 'round and 'round with how to lift families out of grinding, multi-generational poverty. Giving the poor a hand up (education) is way better than giving them a handout yet over 1/3 of NYC kids don't even graduate high school. HIGH SCHOOL for crying out loud (and high school is FREE). Too many know that even if they make little or no effort to make something of themselves, American society will carry them.

In 1987 George and Diane Weiss promised free college to a class of 112 West Philadelphia sixth graders, all of them black but they quickly realized that getting those kids to college would be at least half the battle and spent millions for tutoring, counseling and social services. 28 years later the Weiss's effort has resulted in eleven Bachelor’s degrees, two Associate’s degrees, and seven vocational certificates.

A valiant try that proved, sadly, that you can lead the ponies to water but you just can't make them drink.

 

[ChrisL]

My point is simple- the "poor" in the US have a very high standard of living compared to most of the world.

That is BECAUSE of our social safety nets.

Which seem, for too many, to act as an anchor rather than a safety net.
.

Let me tell you, if you don't help the poor, things will get worse. MUCH worse. The poor people don't care what you think about them. They care about surviving. If you leave them with nothing, they will do what they feel they need to in order to survive. You want to see REAL ghettos and slums?

We already have real ghettos and slums but we go 'round and 'round with how to lift families out of grinding, multi-generational poverty. Giving the poor a hand up (education) is way better than giving them a handout yet over 1/3 of NYC kids don't even graduate high school. HIGH SCHOOL for crying out loud (and high school is FREE). Too many know that even if they make little or no effort to make something of themselves, American society will carry them.

In 1987 George and Diane Weiss promised free college to a class of 112 West Philadelphia sixth graders, all of them black and They quickly realized that getting those kids to college would be at least half the battle and spent millions for tutoring, counseling and social services. 28 years later the Weiss's effort has resulted in eleven Bachelor’s degrees, two Associate’s degrees, and seven vocational certificates.

A valiant try that proved, sadly, that you can lead the ponies to water but you just can't make them drink.

We don't have ghettos and slums like those in some other countries. They have entire towns and cities made up of tents and cardboard houses.

 

[SAYIT]

Neither. I'm pointing out that working people are forced into a lower standard of living because they support a welfare class that has more disposable income than they have. Livin the dream.

I've been making that point for weeks and getting no response. Stop me if you've heard this one:
A long time friend - single mom with some college & 2 kids - works as much o-time as necessary to provide the kids with the little extras (hockey, dance) most of us want for our children. When o-time wasn't available she would take a 2nd job. She drove herself to have a life - nurturing, providing for & teaching her children, maintaining strong family & friend ties and working out daily - often at the cost of sleep.
She neither sought nor accepted gov't aid and always earned a bit more than the free-riders so that this hard-working, responsible mom annually paid at least some federal personal income tax which our gov't, in all its "wisdom and justice," used to supplement the income of those who couldn't or wouldn't match her effort.
She never expects or demands that society ("the rich") provide for her and hers ... she does what is necessary to be self-sufficient.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Neither. I'm pointing out that working people are forced into a lower standard of living because they support a welfare class that has more disposable income than they have. Livin the dream.

During my time living as that class I don't remember us having much essential income let alone disposable income. I certainly didn't see any of the things economic conservatives are convinced exist. Nobody was eating steak or watching multiple televisions when few people even had a vehicle. I'd encourage you to head down to the local Section 8 projects and look around for yourself if it there weren't a good chance it's not even safe enough for an outsider to walk through.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

'Is there a libertarian approach to poverty that *doesn't* come down to "just stop being poor"?'

No.

 

[Zander]

See, this is what the OP was about. "If you didn't want to be poor then you should have had the drive and motivation to be born to a rich family. If you want to stop being poor then get a job. You should be able to squeeze it in between the other two you're already working, you lazy bastard you."​

Yep. In this country being poor is a choice. Go into any "poor" persons house, trailer, or apartment and you'll see an enormous TV in every room and not one book......

Wanna stop being poor? Take responsibility for everything that happens in your life. Stop blaming others for your problems. There is no government solution for anyone's problems.

That is ridiculously simple. That is NOT why people are poor. We are a country of around 320 MILLION people. There are just not that many jobs to go around.

The truth is simple. Lies and excuses are always complicated. If you can't find a job - create your own job. Start a business. People come here from other countries with nothing and they immediately start their own businesses.
They understand CAPITALISM. They know it's the greatest engine of prosperity in the history of mankind.

There is no excuse for able bodied non retarded people being poor or needing welfare for more than a few months. It's a safety net- not a ******* sofa.

A lot of people do not have the luxury of just "starting a business." Be realistic!!! What bank is going to give this person a loan??

Who needs a loan? Millions of businesses are started every year with nothing! I never borrowed a cent to start my business and it was profitable from day one. I got a job and leaned how it was done. I applied myself with a passion to learn everything I could about that business and I saved as much money as I could. I gave up things like dinners and fancy cars. . I scrimped and saved so that I could get the money I needed. I also became the best employee I could be and was eager to take on more and more responsibility. My pay went up as a result and I was able to save more. Then one day I went out and started my own company. That is how it's done.

There is no such thing as security or a guarantee in this world. You get what you earn. No risk. No reward.

Opening a business is very complicated! It takes a lot of money too! You don't just immediately start seeing a profit. All of your money for the first few years is usually invested BACK into your business. Therefore, how do you expect a person who is poor and collecting social services to begin with such a task?

Also, opening a business is a risky undertaking. It is kind of like gambling actually. There is absolutely NO guarantees that you will be successful. Whatever business you open, there are already probably at least thousands of others in existence. We need REAL solutions to these real problems.

My grandfather used to tell me about how he supported a family of 5 (himself, his wife and 3 kids), on HIS income alone, and he worked at a factory. He owned his own home, a car, a camper, and was able to food on the table all on his income. That is literally impossible today.

Working for someone else is a far bigger gamble. The myth that it takes years to become profitable in business is why people end up as wage slaves. They live in fear. No risk, no reward. TANSTAAFL.

 

[SAYIT]

My point is simple- the "poor" in the US have a very high standard of living compared to most of the world.

That is BECAUSE of our social safety nets.

Which seem, for too many, to act as an anchor rather than a safety net.
.

Let me tell you, if you don't help the poor, things will get worse. MUCH worse. The poor people don't care what you think about them. They care about surviving. If you leave them with nothing, they will do what they feel they need to in order to survive. You want to see REAL ghettos and slums?

We already have real ghettos and slums but we go 'round and 'round with how to lift families out of grinding, multi-generational poverty. Giving the poor a hand up (education) is way better than giving them a handout yet over 1/3 of NYC kids don't even graduate high school. HIGH SCHOOL for crying out loud (and high school is FREE). Too many know that even if they make little or no effort to make something of themselves, American society will carry them.

In 1987 George and Diane Weiss promised free college to a class of 112 West Philadelphia sixth graders, all of them black and They quickly realized that getting those kids to college would be at least half the battle and spent millions for tutoring, counseling and social services. 28 years later the Weiss's effort has resulted in eleven Bachelor’s degrees, two Associate’s degrees, and seven vocational certificates.

A valiant try that proved, sadly, that you can lead the ponies to water but you just can't make them drink.

We don't have ghettos and slums like those in some other countries. They have entire towns and cities made up of tents and cardboard houses.

Understood and I believe that was Zander's point. My point is that our safety net has waaay too many people who should not only not be on it but should be helping to pull this train. We make it too easy to "get by" with gov't aid.
Working 1 part-time low wage (low skill) job and supplementing it with gov't freebies isn't just immoral, it's unfair to those who work 60 hour weeks pay for the freebies.

 

[dblack]

'Is there a libertarian approach to poverty that *doesn't* come down to "just stop being poor"?'

No.

We've been over this, C. If the only way you can conceive of helping the poor is using government to force others to do it - then you're right, libertarians don't offer you anything. But some of us aren't so fixated on government as the be-all, end-all representation of society. We can, and should, take care of each other. We just don't think we need to employ coercion for that to happen.

 

[Zander]

If only we could live in a Leftist utopia. Where all of our needs are taken care of.by the government. Free Medical. Free Housing. Free Meals. Free education. Wouldn't that be great? Total security!!

 

[ChrisL]

See, this is what the OP was about. "If you didn't want to be poor then you should have had the drive and motivation to be born to a rich family. If you want to stop being poor then get a job. You should be able to squeeze it in between the other two you're already working, you lazy bastard you."​

Yep. In this country being poor is a choice. Go into any "poor" persons house, trailer, or apartment and you'll see an enormous TV in every room and not one book......

Wanna stop being poor? Take responsibility for everything that happens in your life. Stop blaming others for your problems. There is no government solution for anyone's problems.

That is ridiculously simple. That is NOT why people are poor. We are a country of around 320 MILLION people. There are just not that many jobs to go around.

The truth is simple. Lies and excuses are always complicated. If you can't find a job - create your own job. Start a business. People come here from other countries with nothing and they immediately start their own businesses.
They understand CAPITALISM. They know it's the greatest engine of prosperity in the history of mankind.

There is no excuse for able bodied non retarded people being poor or needing welfare for more than a few months. It's a safety net- not a ******* sofa.

A lot of people do not have the luxury of just "starting a business." Be realistic!!! What bank is going to give this person a loan??

Who needs a loan? Millions of businesses are started every year with nothing! I never borrowed a cent to start my business and it was profitable from day one. I got a job and leaned how it was done. I applied myself with a passion to learn everything I could about that business and I saved as much money as I could. I gave up things like dinners and fancy cars. . I scrimped and saved so that I could get the money I needed. I also became the best employee I could be and was eager to take on more and more responsibility. My pay went up as a result and I was able to save more. Then one day I went out and started my own company. That is how it's done.

There is no such thing as security or a guarantee in this world. You get what you earn. No risk. No reward.

Opening a business is very complicated! It takes a lot of money too! You don't just immediately start seeing a profit. All of your money for the first few years is usually invested BACK into your business. Therefore, how do you expect a person who is poor and collecting social services to begin with such a task?

Also, opening a business is a risky undertaking. It is kind of like gambling actually. There is absolutely NO guarantees that you will be successful. Whatever business you open, there are already probably at least thousands of others in existence. We need REAL solutions to these real problems.

My grandfather used to tell me about how he supported a family of 5 (himself, his wife and 3 kids), on HIS income alone, and he worked at a factory. He owned his own home, a car, a camper, and was able to food on the table all on his income. That is literally impossible today.

Working for someone else is a far bigger gamble. The myth that it takes years to become profitable in business is why people end up as wage slaves. They live in fear. No risk, no reward. TANSTAAFL.

I'm sorry, but that is bull crap. You don't start a business and make a profit from day one. A profitable business takes investment. It takes time to build a reputation. It takes equipment. It takes licenses. It takes knowledge of accounting, Microsoft Excel, etc. What century are you from anyway?

 

[ChrisL]

Insurance. How could I forget insurance. You have to also pay for your employees, etc. This is just extremely silly and illogical.

 

[koshergrl]

Neither. I'm pointing out that working people are forced into a lower standard of living because they support a welfare class that has more disposable income than they have. Livin the dream.

I've been making that point for weeks and getting no response. Stop me if you've heard this one:
A long time friend - single mom with some college & 2 kids - works as much o-time as necessary to provide the kids with the little extras (hockey, dance) most of us want for our children. When o-time wasn't available she would take a 2nd job. She drove herself to have a life - nurturing, providing for & teaching her children, maintaining strong family & friend ties and working out daily - often at the cost of sleep.
She neither sought nor accepted gov't aid and always earned a bit more than the free-riders so that this hard-working, responsible mom annually paid at least some federal personal income tax which our gov't, in all its "wisdom and justice," used to supplement the income of those who couldn't or wouldn't match her effort.
She never expects or demands that society ("the rich") provide for her and hers ... she does what is necessary to be self-sufficient.

Yes well her payback will be having the it's diligently track and audit her lest she lie about how much she pays in childcare on her taxes, followed by decades of being hounded for student loans for a degree she'll. Never actually get because she's. Desperately trying to keep her family afloat. She will eat turnips, potatoes, cabbage and pig hocks while the drug dealers who live down the street heap their carts high. She will have her electric shut off because she's late with the payment, while the neighbors get federal subsidies to cover those expenses. Welcome to the welfare state, where working stiffs get the shaft.

 

[Zander]

See, this is what the OP was about. "If you didn't want to be poor then you should have had the drive and motivation to be born to a rich family. If you want to stop being poor then get a job. You should be able to squeeze it in between the other two you're already working, you lazy bastard you."​

Yep. In this country being poor is a choice. Go into any "poor" persons house, trailer, or apartment and you'll see an enormous TV in every room and not one book......

Wanna stop being poor? Take responsibility for everything that happens in your life. Stop blaming others for your problems. There is no government solution for anyone's problems.

That is ridiculously simple. That is NOT why people are poor. We are a country of around 320 MILLION people. There are just not that many jobs to go around.

The truth is simple. Lies and excuses are always complicated. If you can't find a job - create your own job. Start a business. People come here from other countries with nothing and they immediately start their own businesses.
They understand CAPITALISM. They know it's the greatest engine of prosperity in the history of mankind.

There is no excuse for able bodied non retarded people being poor or needing welfare for more than a few months. It's a safety net- not a ******* sofa.

A lot of people do not have the luxury of just "starting a business." Be realistic!!! What bank is going to give this person a loan??

Who needs a loan? Millions of businesses are started every year with nothing! I never borrowed a cent to start my business and it was profitable from day one. I got a job and leaned how it was done. I applied myself with a passion to learn everything I could about that business and I saved as much money as I could. I gave up things like dinners and fancy cars. . I scrimped and saved so that I could get the money I needed. I also became the best employee I could be and was eager to take on more and more responsibility. My pay went up as a result and I was able to save more. Then one day I went out and started my own company. That is how it's done.

There is no such thing as security or a guarantee in this world. You get what you earn. No risk. No reward.

Opening a business is very complicated! It takes a lot of money too! You don't just immediately start seeing a profit. All of your money for the first few years is usually invested BACK into your business. Therefore, how do you expect a person who is poor and collecting social services to begin with such a task?

Also, opening a business is a risky undertaking. It is kind of like gambling actually. There is absolutely NO guarantees that you will be successful. Whatever business you open, there are already probably at least thousands of others in existence. We need REAL solutions to these real problems.

My grandfather used to tell me about how he supported a family of 5 (himself, his wife and 3 kids), on HIS income alone, and he worked at a factory. He owned his own home, a car, a camper, and was able to food on the table all on his income. That is literally impossible today.

Working for someone else is a far bigger gamble. The myth that it takes years to become profitable in business is why people end up as wage slaves. They live in fear. No risk, no reward. TANSTAAFL.

I'm sorry, but that is bull crap. You don't start a business and make a profit from day one. A profitable business takes investment. It takes time to build a reputation. It takes equipment. It takes licenses. It takes knowledge of accounting, Microsoft Excel, etc. What century are you from anyway?

People start businesses every single day without any of those things.

It's an abundant world. If you want to live in a world of scarcity that is your choice. Please don't apply your own self imposed limitations to others.

how to start a business with no money - Google Search
843,000.000 results in1.1 seconds!!

 

[koshergrl]

The I r s.... Not its.

 

[SAYIT]

'Is there a libertarian approach to poverty that *doesn't* come down to "just stop being poor"?'

No.

We've been over this, C. If the only way you can conceive of helping the poor is using government to force others to do it - then you're right, libertarians don't offer you anything. But some of us aren't so fixated on government as the be-all, end-all representation of society. We can, and should, take care of each other. We just don't think we need to employ coercion for that to happen.

In fact, Americans contributed over $350 billion to the charities of their choice in 2014 without gov't coercion, and that's just on the books. The shadow giving - that which we don't or can't show on our taxes - amounts to billions more. We don't need gov't to make us do the right thing and one could argue that our expansive (and expensive) gov't freebie system - one that some pols use to get elected - is a major factor in the perpetuation of multi-generational poverty.

 

[SAYIT]

If only we could live in a Leftist utopia. Where all of our needs are taken care of.by the government. Free Medical. Free Housing. Free Meals. Free education. Wouldn't that be great? Total security!!

Aaah ... the good socialist life. Thanks comrade!

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"Is there a libertarian approach to poverty that *doesn't* come down to "just stop being poor"?'

Libertarians also have the 'go off somewhere and die' approach to poverty.

 

[dblack]

"Is there a libertarian approach to poverty that *doesn't* come down to "just stop being poor"?'

Libertarians also have the 'go off somewhere and die' approach to poverty.

Nope. That's not part of the platform, sorry. Enjoy your strawman.

 

[Dad2three]