Is the left really against schools hiring students or is the issue Gingrich said it?

[EriktheRed]

Those of you who really think, or think you think, that learning to work and learning the value of work in terms of the income it generates is of the highest priority,

how about this? Eliminate ALL sports programs and use the money you save to fund work-in-school programs. Eliminate playing games for free and replace them with doing work for money.

Kind of loses its charm in that context, doesn't it?

Someone posting on here from Texas is gonna want to string you up for saying that.

 

[SAT2]

How many of them are there, Joe? How many?

If it's ONE, it's too many.

Not an answer, Joe. How many?

Of course, as I have pointed out to SAT a bunch of times, and he(she?) keeps ignoring, the Democratic politicians themselves don't expose their kids to this bullshit. They put their kids in nice private schools.

Joe being a serial liar, he says I've ignored this. Of course, I haven't, and I'll give him the answer AGAIN.

I have books that I bought in my home. That doesn't mean I'm against the public library.

I have a car. That doesn't mean I'm against public transportation.

You can support public education, and support your tax dollars going to public education, and still opt for private school for your kids.

That's a complete cop out and you know it. I'm amazed you are even trying to get away with it.

If you blocked people from having access to book stores and car dealerships, while taking advantage of them yourself, then your comparisons would be apt.

When you state that you are not going to allow ANY school choice, oppose magnet schools and charter schools and voucher and school choice of any kind, but DAMMIT, I'm sending my kid to a nice Catholic School while I INSIST on busing your kid into the Ghetto for the purpose of "democratizing" him. That isn't choice, that's coercion.

Further, if you ignore the wishes of the people who are like, paying for this stuff, by insisting on teaching evolution only when some of them want intelligent design taught, or forcing birth control and sex education on them when they feel that is something that should be taught in the home, then we aren't really talking about "choices" anymore, are we.

My analogy is completely apt. Some things are available to those with more money. Private school is one of them. No one is blocked from owning a car, or buying books, or sending their kids to private schools, by anything other than money.

Magnet schools are public schools, and as far as I know, they are in most districts. You apparently have your terms mixed up. The other part of your rant I'm going to leave alone for the present because you're way too prone to wandering off in the weeds.

 

[kaz]

I am patiently waiting for any evidence whatsoever from you of any liberal EVER flip flopping on this issue simply because Gingrich came out in support of it.

Actually I showed you the quote and that wasn't my claim. That's a claim you pulled out of your ass. Show me the quote where I said a liberal "flip flopped."

 

[NYcarbineer]

I am patiently waiting for any evidence whatsoever from you of any liberal EVER flip flopping on this issue simply because Gingrich came out in support of it.

Actually I showed you the quote and that wasn't my claim. That's a claim you pulled out of your ass. Show me the quote where I said a liberal "flip flopped."

Why are you trolling?

If you're claiming that liberals are opposing this only because Gingrich is for it, even though it conflicts with that liberals' true values and beliefs,

you're claiming that liberal is flip flopping, or is hypocritical, or inconsistent, or irrationally partisan.

btw, can you name the liberals HERE that are only opposing this because Gingrich is for it?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Those of you who really think, or think you think, that learning to work and learning the value of work in terms of the income it generates is of the highest priority,

how about this? Eliminate ALL sports programs and use the money you save to fund work-in-school programs. Eliminate playing games for free and replace them with doing work for money.

Kind of loses its charm in that context, doesn't it?

Someone posting on here from Texas is gonna want to string you up for saying that.

lol, I just watched the entire Friday Night Light series over the last couple months.

Yep, you're right.

Of course they'll tell you that sports are a metaphor for life and build all sorts of character traits needed for the world of work.

 

[kaz]

I am patiently waiting for any evidence whatsoever from you of any liberal EVER flip flopping on this issue simply because Gingrich came out in support of it.

Actually I showed you the quote and that wasn't my claim. That's a claim you pulled out of your ass. Show me the quote where I said a liberal "flip flopped."

Why are you trolling?

Worried I'm infringing on your territory?

If you're claiming that liberals are opposing this only because Gingrich is for it, even though it conflicts with that liberals' true values and beliefs

This is your best argument, that liberals are against self sufficiency and work.

you're claiming that liberal is flip flopping, or is hypocritical, or inconsistent, or irrationally partisan

Yes, and of those YOU chose only flip flopping. The others are what I argued. I didn't say liberals did or did not specifically "flip flop." That was pulled out of your ass. Though even you said your school hired kids and didn't say you actually opposed it.

 

[JoeB131]

My analogy is completely apt. Some things are available to those with more money. Private school is one of them. No one is blocked from owning a car, or buying books, or sending their kids to private schools, by anything other than money.

Magnet schools are public schools, and as far as I know, they are in most districts. You apparently have your terms mixed up. The other part of your rant I'm going to leave alone for the present because you're way too prone to wandering off in the weeds.

Magnet schools are schools where they pick and chose their kids, just like you keep accsing the mean old Private Schools of doing.

But I can't send my kid there if I think he should go there. If the school district says I got to send my kid to the ghetto and fight the gangbangers for his lunch money (again, all in the name of "Democratizing" them. And after that shit, they'll never vote for Democrats) that's not a choice.

And if I don't want my kid to be taught where to get an abortion or that he evolved from a shit-flinging monkey because my beliefs tell me otherwise, too bad. You got to send them to OUR school and learn WHAT we tell them. And we'll take a big chunk of your money to pay for it while sending our kiddies off to a private school.

On the other hand, if I don't like the selection of books in the library in my town, I can go get a library card at a library in the neighboring town. See the difference? If the Train doesn't go where I want to go, I can take another train.

Not the same with the schools. You go where we tell you to go, unless you opt out like we do.

 

[SAT2]

Magnet schools are schools where they pick and chose their kids, just like you keep accsing the mean old Private Schools of doing.

They pick and choose, based on achievement, not on ability to pay.

But I can't send my kid there if I think he should go there. If the school district says I got to send my kid to the ghetto and fight the gangbangers for his lunch money (again, all in the name of "Democratizing" them. And after that shit, they'll never vote for Democrats) that's not a choice.

You continue to be baffled by the word democracy, believing it to be associated solely with the Democratic party.

And if I don't want my kid to be taught where to get an abortion or that he evolved from a shit-flinging monkey because my beliefs tell me otherwise, too bad. You got to send them to OUR school and learn WHAT we tell them. And we'll take a big chunk of your money to pay for it while sending our kiddies off to a private school.

So in most areas, you're in line with Catholic teaching, but when it comes to evolution, you're a Baptist fundamentalist. Now how did that happen, exactly?

As for teaching them where to get an abortion, you're letting your imagination run away with you.

On the other hand, if I don't like the selection of books in the library in my town, I can go get a library card at a library in the neighboring town. See the difference? If the Train doesn't go where I want to go, I can take another train.

Not the same with the schools. You go where we tell you to go, unless you opt out like we do.

I do see the difference. Hopefully, you see the similarity-that simply sending your kids to private school doesn't mean that you're a hypocrite. Especially if you spend your time fighting for tax dollars to make sure those schools are adequately funded.

Parents have the right to homeschool, and they can ask for zone waivers, but they have to provide transportation-and of course, not everyone can do that. Which is why we shouldn't have any schools that are dangerous.

 

[Iridescence]

The price of education is ridiculous and most of America is coming around to see that the return is not reflecting the high cost. There is going to have to be a change, it doesn't matter if it comes in the form of allowing our children to work at an earlier age than most seem comfortable with. Most of America seems to find it unacceptable to send our nation's children to school for years to have them come out of those years distant from their established cores. Most of America also seems to be oblivious that during the years in school many of our children are taught to disrespect and disobey our government laws and government officials. Perhaps not all are... and perhaps not all do... but the number is large, too large, considering that even Presidential candidates are making it part of their campaign to mention such.

 

[SAT2]

The price of education is ridiculous and most of America is coming around to see that the return is not reflecting the high cost. There is going to have to be a change, it doesn't matter if it comes in the form of allowing our children to work at an earlier age than most seem comfortable with. Most of America seems to find it unacceptable to send our nation's children to school for years to have them come out of those years distant from their established cores. Most of America also seems to be oblivious that during the years in school many of our children are taught to disrespect and disobey our government laws and government officials. Perhaps not all are... and perhaps not all do... but the number is large, too large, considering that even Presidential candidates are making it part of their campaign to mention such.

The number is large, because a candidate brought it up?

Can you back up what you're saying about outcomes with some data?

 

[EriktheRed]

Those of you who really think, or think you think, that learning to work and learning the value of work in terms of the income it generates is of the highest priority,

how about this? Eliminate ALL sports programs and use the money you save to fund work-in-school programs. Eliminate playing games for free and replace them with doing work for money.

Kind of loses its charm in that context, doesn't it?

Someone posting on here from Texas is gonna want to string you up for saying that.

lol, I just watched the entire Friday Night Light series over the last couple months.

Yep, you're right.

Of course they'll tell you that sports are a metaphor for life and build all sorts of character traits needed for the world of work.

Won't dispute that there's some truth to that, either. Still, it appears a lot of them are making a little too much out of it.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Actually I showed you the quote and that wasn't my claim. That's a claim you pulled out of your ass. Show me the quote where I said a liberal "flip flopped."

Why are you trolling?

Worried I'm infringing on your territory?

If you're claiming that liberals are opposing this only because Gingrich is for it, even though it conflicts with that liberals' true values and beliefs

This is your best argument, that liberals are against self sufficiency and work.

you're claiming that liberal is flip flopping, or is hypocritical, or inconsistent, or irrationally partisan

Yes, and of those YOU chose only flip flopping. The others are what I argued. I didn't say liberals did or did not specifically "flip flop." That was pulled out of your ass. Though even you said your school hired kids and didn't say you actually opposed it.

Flip flopping IS hypocritical, inconsistent, and if done for partisan reason, irrationally partisan.

You can't show us one liberal who did that.

I did not oppose legal age kids being hired to supplement the work force. That is a far cry from wanting to get rid of stupid labor laws to replace 'unionized' workers with children.

Did you know I praised Gingrich in 2009 (for being right) when he endorsed Dede Scozzafava over tea party favorite Doug Hoffman in the infamous NY23 congressional race?

Look it up.

 

[JoeB131]

Magnet schools are schools where they pick and chose their kids, just like you keep accsing the mean old Private Schools of doing.

They pick and choose, based on achievement, not on ability to pay.

Previously you argued the reason Catholic Schools get better results is beause they don't take the troubled students and the students with disabilities.... Try to keep your arguments straight.

But I can't send my kid there if I think he should go there. If the school district says I got to send my kid to the ghetto and fight the gangbangers for his lunch money (again, all in the name of "Democratizing" them. And after that shit, they'll never vote for Democrats) that's not a choice.

You continue to be baffled by the word democracy, believing it to be associated solely with the Democratic party.

Not at all. You seem to think the Schools exist for indoctrination. They don't. There is not one sensible person who will agree with the notion, "We need to bus your kid halfway across the city and put them in with vicious gangbangers in order to 'democratize' them."

And if I don't want my kid to be taught where to get an abortion or that he evolved from a shit-flinging monkey because my beliefs tell me otherwise, too bad. You got to send them to OUR school and learn WHAT we tell them. And we'll take a big chunk of your money to pay for it while sending our kiddies off to a private school.

So in most areas, you're in line with Catholic teaching, but when it comes to evolution, you're a Baptist fundamentalist. Now how did that happen, exactly?

Actually, I'm an atheist, despite 12 years of Catholic teaching. My point is not what I believe, but what Parents will have to go along with. If they are teaching moral messages I don't agree with as a parent, I should have other options. And if I vote that other options should be offered, the ACLU shouldn't come in and shut that down.

As for teaching them where to get an abortion, you're letting your imagination run away with you.

Not at all. Planned Parenthood has the run of Public Schools... thanks to Liberals. Again, not that I have a problem with abortion, personally. I just don't think the wishes of parents should be overruled.

I do see the difference. Hopefully, you see the similarity-that simply sending your kids to private school doesn't mean that you're a hypocrite. Especially if you spend your time fighting for tax dollars to make sure those schools are adequately funded.

Well, it depends why you want them 'funded'. If you want them funded to improve them, then you'd demand accountability that they were actually improving to the point you'd want to send your kids there.

But it you want to fund them in order to get a kickback from the teacher's unions and plenty of patronage and pork to spread around to reward your partisans, but you know it's fucked up as a football bat and you'd never put your kid in one, then you are a hypocrite.

Guess which one describes the relationship Democrats have with these schools. And have had since I went to school with the Lipinski kids. (One of them is a Congressman now.)

Parents have the right to homeschool, and they can ask for zone waivers, but they have to provide transportation-and of course, not everyone can do that. Which is why we shouldn't have any schools that are dangerous.

I agree, we shouldn't. So why do we?

Because you libs decided that instead of sending these dangerous little bastards to reform school where they belong, you get rid of the reform schools and you "mainstream" them.

The whole rotten system is designed to perpetuate this underclass. Oh, you'll whine about racism, but the success of Asian Americans blows that bullshit out of the water. You create people who are dependent on government, they'll keep voting for more of it.

Until it is no longer sustainable, which is pretty much where we are at now.

 

[Iridescence]

The price of education is ridiculous and most of America is coming around to see that the return is not reflecting the high cost. There is going to have to be a change, it doesn't matter if it comes in the form of allowing our children to work at an earlier age than most seem comfortable with. Most of America seems to find it unacceptable to send our nation's children to school for years to have them come out of those years distant from their established cores. Most of America also seems to be oblivious that during the years in school many of our children are taught to disrespect and disobey our government laws and government officials. Perhaps not all are... and perhaps not all do... but the number is large, too large, considering that even Presidential candidates are making it part of their campaign to mention such.

The number is large, because a candidate brought it up?

Can you back up what you're saying about outcomes with some data?

The number is large and that is proven by the attention that the media gives it. Even the more respected media sources. The fact that candidates have made it part of their campaign proves that it is a concern for all of America and that it is potentially solvable with polite discussions/maneuvering rather than to allow it to continue getting uglier as time passes. The data? We seem to have a great many things provoking what is being dubbed as 'Homegrown Terrorists'. I don't take that lightly, as a mother. I understand how difficult it is to accept the fact that public education is NOT optional and yet as many of our nation's children develop negatively... systems tend to look at the parents and the homelife instead of questioning whether a public education should be something other than mandatory.

 

[SAT2]

Magnet schools are schools where they pick and chose their kids, just like you keep accsing the mean old Private Schools of doing.

They pick and choose, based on achievement, not on ability to pay.

Previously you argued the reason Catholic Schools get better results is beause they don't take the troubled students and the students with disabilities.... Try to keep your arguments straight.

And what I said didn't contradict that. Can you read at all?

Not at all. You seem to think the Schools exist for indoctrination. They don't. There is not one sensible person who will agree with the notion, "We need to bus your kid halfway across the city and put them in with vicious gangbangers in order to 'democratize' them."

No, I don't think that schools exist for indoctrination. You're confusing terms. It's not necessary to bus kids for schools to provide the experience of being with people different than yourself.

Actually, I'm an atheist, despite 12 years of Catholic teaching. My point is not what I believe, but what Parents will have to go along with. If they are teaching moral messages I don't agree with as a parent, I should have other options. And if I vote that other options should be offered, the ACLU shouldn't come in and shut that down.

I know that's what you claim, yes. That you're an atheist. But you're suddenly taking the irrational belief that science classes in public schools are required to teach the viewpoints of Baptist fundamentalists. Which is, as I said, interesting.

Not at all. Planned Parenthood has the run of Public Schools... thanks to Liberals. Again, not that I have a problem with abortion, personally. I just don't think the wishes of parents should be overruled.

They don't here. And even if PP was in the schools, that doesn't mean that the school is teaching kids where to get an abortion. Please check on your claims.

I do see the difference. Hopefully, you see the similarity-that simply sending your kids to private school doesn't mean that you're a hypocrite. Especially if you spend your time fighting for tax dollars to make sure those schools are adequately funded.

Well, it depends why you want them 'funded'. If you want them funded to improve them, then you'd demand accountability that they were actually improving to the point you'd want to send your kids there.

Yes, that's what I to fund.

But it you want to fund them in order to get a kickback from the teacher's unions and plenty of patronage and pork to spread around to reward your partisans, but you know it's fucked up as a football bat and you'd never put your kid in one, then you are a hypocrite.

Again, we're in the land of Joe's mind. What even conservatives call "the fever swamps".

Parents have the right to homeschool, and they can ask for zone waivers, but they have to provide transportation-and of course, not everyone can do that. Which is why we shouldn't have any schools that are dangerous.

I agree, we shouldn't. So why do we?

Because you libs decided that instead of sending these dangerous little bastards to reform school where they belong, you get rid of the reform schools and you "mainstream" them.

You don't know what you're talking about. We have alternative schools-which is a school for kids with bad behavior. Mainstreaming is about special education, not about conduct problems. Where are you getting this stuff? You seem to just be pulling shit out of thin air.

The whole rotten system is designed to perpetuate this underclass. Oh, you'll whine about racism, but the success of Asian Americans blows that bullshit out of the water. You create people who are dependent on government, they'll keep voting for more of it.

Until it is no longer sustainable, which is pretty much where we are at now.

Oh, bullshit. That is idiotic.

 

[JoeB131]

You totally screwed up the quoting, so I'll hit the parts where you tried to make a point...

Yes, that's what I to fund.

I think you missed an action verb there, spanky. That wonderful Public Education, they explained what a Verb is to you at some point, right?

but the point is, your side doesn't want to fund that. Whenever there is any attempt at accountability, you fight it tooth and nail because, hey, those Teacher Unions paid good money to perserve those jobs.

Of course, the best accountability is the open market. Everyone gets a voucher, and the market decides.

I know that's what you claim, yes. That you're an atheist. But you're suddenly taking the irrational belief that science classes in public schools are required to teach the viewpoints of Baptist fundamentalists. Which is, as I said, interesting.

Not at all. It's the thing that if you are going to demand people pay for a school, they should have a say in what is taught there.

As a practical matter, pretending the ID/Creationist point of view doesn't exist, and we will never, ever talk about it is self defeating. It should be addressed. Because if you just hide it, they will assume you are hiding it for a reason. Which is why more Americans believe in Genesis than Darwin. That and the "Science" teachers are the same inept boobs who can't teach math or spelling, either.

No, I don't think that schools exist for indoctrination. You're confusing terms. It's not necessary to bus kids for schools to provide the experience of being with people different than yourself.

But that's exactly what you libs insisted on doing. You pushed busing and even penalized parents who tried to opt out of it. (Such as by not giving them credit for half the school year if they switched schools.) In fact, forced busing only stopped in Chicago when the number of White kids left in the system dropped to 11% of the total, and there just weren't enough of them to bus around.

 

[SAT2]

You totally screwed up the quoting, so I'll hit the parts where you tried to make a point...

Oh, you understood it perfectly well. Stop being childish.

Yes, that's what I to fund.

I think you missed an action verb there, spanky. That wonderful Public Education, they explained what a Verb is to you at some point, right?

See the above. Grow up. You're an old guy, act like it.

but the point is, your side doesn't want to fund that. Whenever there is any attempt at accountability, you fight it tooth and nail because, hey, those Teacher Unions paid good money to perserve those jobs.

Of course, the best accountability is the open market. Everyone gets a voucher, and the market decides.

We disagree on how to achieve that aim.

I know that's what you claim, yes. That you're an atheist. But you're suddenly taking the irrational belief that science classes in public schools are required to teach the viewpoints of Baptist fundamentalists. Which is, as I said, interesting.

Not at all. It's the thing that if you are going to demand people pay for a school, they should have a say in what is taught there.

As a practical matter, pretending the ID/Creationist point of view doesn't exist, and we will never, ever talk about it is self defeating. It should be addressed. Because if you just hide it, they will assume you are hiding it for a reason. Which is why more Americans believe in Genesis than Darwin. That and the "Science" teachers are the same inept boobs who can't teach math or spelling, either.

It's a point of view. Not science. It can be taught in civics class.

No, I don't think that schools exist for indoctrination. You're confusing terms. It's not necessary to bus kids for schools to provide the experience of being with people different than yourself.

But that's exactly what you libs insisted on doing. You pushed busing and even penalized parents who tried to opt out of it. (Such as by not giving them credit for half the school year if they switched schools.) In fact, forced busing only stopped in Chicago when the number of White kids left in the system dropped to 11% of the total, and there just weren't enough of them to bus around.

Busing is a failed solution to a serious problem. Try to grasp the entire issue.

 

[JoeB131]

Busing is a failed solution to a serious problem. Try to grasp the entire issue.

it was a solution to a problem that didn't need solving. That's why it failed.

It's a point of view. Not science. It can be taught in civics class.

or, here's an idea. We have school choice, and parents can pick a school where it is taught the way they want it taught. WHAT A CONCEPT!

We disagree on how to achieve that aim.

No, I don't think that you are at all interested in fixing the problems. In fact, you won't even allow alternative to be tried. You just want to keep on trying the same thing, over and over again, even though it's failed...

 

[SAT2]

You're mistaken. Busing was a response to unequal schools. That was and is a real problem.

Teaching creationism in science class in public schools is a dumb idea. Sorry.

You have no idea what I propose for fixing education. Just because I reject your failed ideas doesn't mean that I am in favor of things staying as they are.

 

[Iridescence]

One thing I find ironic... is that creationism is not considered as teachable science theory and yet we happily and willingly teach sex education to grade schoolers... Isn't that a creation science? :eusa_angle: