Is homeschooling a good solution?

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Which ones would that be? The high school where I teach graduates about 95%of our students. None are illiterate.

Many states require competency tests to demonstrate what they have learned. How do you explain those people?

How do you explain inner city schools that fail 60% of their students? Why shouldn't parents of children in these schools have the option of sending their kids elsewhere? The don't have the option of moving to some tony suburb where the real estate prices are in the stratosphere.

And you think the problem is the education system... Do you think they would do better with homeschooling...

The education system isn't a magic wand to solve everything... resources have to spent there... There is great examples internationally of proper investment in socially deprived area and the results achieved.

Then explain why these same kids do much better when they get a voucher and go to a private school?

They don't! Many studies have proven that there is no significant difference in student performance.

Bullshit propaganda studies, you mean.

Not quite. I have a master's degree in this topic.

How about you? GED? HS diploma?

 

[Markle]

Bullshit. They don't have a choice about paying for the failed government schools.

Failed? That word gets tossed around so much it has no meaning. I doubt you could quantify what constitutes a "failed" school.

A failed school system is one that graduates students who are illiterate. How about that definition?

Which ones would that be? The high school where I teach graduates about 95%of our students. None are illiterate.

Many states require competency tests to demonstrate what they have learned. How do you explain those people?

How do you explain inner city schools that fail 60% of their students? Why shouldn't parents of children in these schools have the option of sending their kids elsewhere? The don't have the option of moving to some tony suburb where the real estate prices are in the stratosphere.

Would you please explain that nonsensical gibberish? How do they "fail" the students? Students fail, Schools do not.

That's just foolish. Of course SCHOOLS fail.

Government schools are incapable of getting rid of incompetent teachers.

Government schools are incapable of enforcing discipline or getting rid of students that drag down the other students and disrupt schools in general.

School unions have secured so much power that they now care only for how much money and power they have, they do NOT, nor have they ever given a rat's behind about the students.

Since I graduated high school in 1963 they have actually had to "re-center" the SAT scores because they were dropping lower and lower. While the bonus points are reduced the higher your actual score, technically you could score well above a perfect score in English and math.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I could not teach in today's world. Not for the pittance they are paid for putting up with today's entitled youth. I would never forego my earning potential to do that. Why anyone does is bizarre. Its so much easier to make double in the private sector for half the effort.

"pittance?" They hardly do any work. They have a 6 hour work day and they only work about 180 days out of the year. They get paid far more than they are worth, if you ask me.

Utterly ignorant. ^^^

That's not even remotely "utter ignorance" - it is 100% fact. We crunched the numbers for my children's school district and they work part time. Literally part time. Only 5 hours per day (which is absolutely laughable) and then they have 3 days at Thanksgiving, two weeks at Christmas, a week at Easter, plus a slew of days for stuff that nobody else in America gets time off for (like Presidents Day, Martin Luther King Jr. day, etc.), and of course, three months in summer. And yet the average salary in the district was a staggering $78,000 per year. And mind you - that may not sound much in some areas like New York City or California. But in this area, that is a TON of money. Who in the hell makes $78,000 for part time work?!? I know people who put in 60 hours per week and don't even come close to that kind of money.

You realize that all of that time off except for the few holidays are unpaid, and no one has 3 months in the summer. Last year, we had slightly over two months with a nice required training scheduled in July. Only 5 hours per day? I work 7:30 to 3:00. I get to school at 6:45 am and often work until 4 or 5 pm. That's more than 5 hours, unless you flunked math.

Send me the info on this district and I will be gald to destroy your fantasy.

 

[Markle]

I don't believe liberal parents should be forced to make their children attend conservative public schools in red states and vice versa.

Having lived in 8 States literally from coast to coast, I can tell you that all government schools are liberal

Not the school where I teach.

Then it is a private school.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

It's always comical watching a public school educator defend public schools....a waste of time for people paying attention but none the less comical

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Failed? That word gets tossed around so much it has no meaning. I doubt you could quantify what constitutes a "failed" school.

A failed school system is one that graduates students who are illiterate. How about that definition?

Which ones would that be? The high school where I teach graduates about 95%of our students. None are illiterate.

Many states require competency tests to demonstrate what they have learned. How do you explain those people?

How do you explain inner city schools that fail 60% of their students? Why shouldn't parents of children in these schools have the option of sending their kids elsewhere? The don't have the option of moving to some tony suburb where the real estate prices are in the stratosphere.

Would you please explain that nonsensical gibberish? How do they "fail" the students? Students fail, Schools do not.

That's just foolish. Of course SCHOOLS fail.

Government schools are incapable of getting rid of incompetent teachers.

Government schools are incapable of enforcing discipline or getting rid of students that drag down the other students and disrupt schools in general.

School unions have secured so much power that they now care only for how much money and power they have, they do NOT, nor have they ever given a rat's behind about the students.

Since I graduated high school in 1963 they have actually had to "re-center" the SAT scores because they were dropping lower and lower. While the bonus points are reduced the higher your actual score, technically you could score well above a perfect score in English and math.

Your ignorance of norm referenced tests is only surpassed by your ignorance of education is general. Schools get rid of incompetent teachers every day. You just know nothing about it because it doesn't bleed. so it doesn't lead the news.

Your concept of unions is the pablum dished out by conservatives and liberals alike who haven't darkened the door of a classroom since they dropped out or were kicked out.

Unions are for the teachers, not the students. That would be like saying the Teamsters are about the trucks!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I don't believe liberal parents should be forced to make their children attend conservative public schools in red states and vice versa.

Having lived in 8 States literally from coast to coast, I can tell you that all government schools are liberal

Not the school where I teach.

Then it is a private school.

Public high school in a rural area. Sorry to bust your bubble.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

It's always comical watching a public school educator defend public schools....a waste of time for people paying attention but none the less comical

Actually, it is depressing to see the idiocy that people try to pass off as intellectual commentary in criticizing something they know nothing about.

 

[Markle]

I could not teach in today's world. Not for the pittance they are paid for putting up with today's entitled youth. I would never forego my earning potential to do that. Why anyone does is bizarre. Its so much easier to make double in the private sector for half the effort.

"pittance?" They hardly do any work. They have a 6 hour work day and they only work about 180 days out of the year. They get paid far more than they are worth, if you ask me.

Utterly ignorant. ^^^

That's not even remotely "utter ignorance" - it is 100% fact. We crunched the numbers for my children's school district and they work part time. Literally part time. Only 5 hours per day (which is absolutely laughable) and then they have 3 days at Thanksgiving, two weeks at Christmas, a week at Easter, plus a slew of days for stuff that nobody else in America gets time off for (like Presidents Day, Martin Luther King Jr. day, etc.), and of course, three months in summer. And yet the average salary in the district was a staggering $78,000 per year. And mind you - that may not sound much in some areas like New York City or California. But in this area, that is a TON of money. Who in the hell makes $78,000 for part time work?!? I know people who put in 60 hours per week and don't even come close to that kind of money.

You realize that all of that time off except for the few holidays are unpaid, and no one has 3 months in the summer. Last year, we had slightly over two months with a nice required training scheduled in July. Only 5 hours per day? I work 7:30 to 3:00. I get to school at 6:45 am and often work until 4 or 5 pm. That's more than 5 hours, unless you flunked math.

Send me the info on this district and I will be gald to destroy your fantasy.

Are you attempting to convince us that we should feel sorry for teachers?

Do they NOT know from their first day of college what the pay scale is for teachers where they want to teach, what the hours are, what the benefits are, etc., etc., etc? If they do NOT, are they really qualified to teach school?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I don't believe liberal parents should be forced to make their children attend conservative public schools in red states and vice versa.

Home schooling is great if you want to raise a child with no exposure to any other ideas than your own,

Most people do not have the capability to home school because their own education is lacking or it is not feasible because of work schedules, etc.

If you can do it, great! If not, don't try to use it as a dodge for mandatory attendance laws or you will just be raising another idiot dependent on social services.

And yet somehow homeschooled kids kick ass on virtually every measure. For the record I homeschooled my older son. All the homeschooled kids I ever met, even where their parents were hardly intellects, were polite and could interact well with adults.

Great post Rabbi. All statistics show that homeschooled children excel far beyond public schooled children in every category (academics, social, religious, political, etc.)

“A recent study shows that homeschooled kids score almost twice as high on exams as public school students. Other studies show that homeschooled kids score 72 points higher than the national average on SAT exams.

Homeschoolers are more likely to attend college, are more likely to graduate, and have higher college GPAs (Grade Point Averages) than other students.
The old wives’ tale spread by the teachers’ unions (who are afraid of competition) is that homeschoolers are not “socialized.” Well, the facts are in. Homeschoolers are almost twice as involved in their local community or church as public school students, and almost three times as involved in politics.

Homeschooled children also have far fewer behavioral problems.”

Excerpt From: Wayne Allyn Root. “The Ultimate Obama Survival Guide.” Regnery Publishing, 2013-03-26. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: The Ultimate Obama Survival Guide by Wayne Allyn Root on iBooks

Somehow, those testing advantages seem to disappear when in college. I don't know if the testing at home is more lax or they just tend to fall apart outside of the secure, comforting environment of the home.

That's simply not true. Their scores are exponentially better than their fellow public-schooled college students. I've not only seen it first hand, but the studies have proven that as well.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I could not teach in today's world. Not for the pittance they are paid for putting up with today's entitled youth. I would never forego my earning potential to do that. Why anyone does is bizarre. Its so much easier to make double in the private sector for half the effort.

"pittance?" They hardly do any work. They have a 6 hour work day and they only work about 180 days out of the year. They get paid far more than they are worth, if you ask me.

Utterly ignorant. ^^^

That's not even remotely "utter ignorance" - it is 100% fact. We crunched the numbers for my children's school district and they work part time. Literally part time. Only 5 hours per day (which is absolutely laughable) and then they have 3 days at Thanksgiving, two weeks at Christmas, a week at Easter, plus a slew of days for stuff that nobody else in America gets time off for (like Presidents Day, Martin Luther King Jr. day, etc.), and of course, three months in summer. And yet the average salary in the district was a staggering $78,000 per year. And mind you - that may not sound much in some areas like New York City or California. But in this area, that is a TON of money. Who in the hell makes $78,000 for part time work?!? I know people who put in 60 hours per week and don't even come close to that kind of money.

You realize that all of that time off except for the few holidays are unpaid, and no one has 3 months in the summer. Last year, we had slightly over two months with a nice required training scheduled in July. Only 5 hours per day? I work 7:30 to 3:00. I get to school at 6:45 am and often work until 4 or 5 pm. That's more than 5 hours, unless you flunked math.

Send me the info on this district and I will be gald to destroy your fantasy.

Are you attempting to convince us that we should feel sorry for teachers?

Do they NOT know from their first day of college what the pay scale is for teachers where they want to teach, what the hours are, what the benefits are, etc., etc., etc? If they do NOT, are they really qualified to teach school?

Not sorry, but stop spreading the bullshit! Critics of education simply make shit up to justify their criticisms.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I could not teach in today's world. Not for the pittance they are paid for putting up with today's entitled youth. I would never forego my earning potential to do that. Why anyone does is bizarre. Its so much easier to make double in the private sector for half the effort.

"pittance?" They hardly do any work. They have a 6 hour work day and they only work about 180 days out of the year. They get paid far more than they are worth, if you ask me.

Utterly ignorant. ^^^

That's not even remotely "utter ignorance" - it is 100% fact. We crunched the numbers for my children's school district and they work part time. Literally part time. Only 5 hours per day (which is absolutely laughable) and then they have 3 days at Thanksgiving, two weeks at Christmas, a week at Easter, plus a slew of days for stuff that nobody else in America gets time off for (like Presidents Day, Martin Luther King Jr. day, etc.), and of course, three months in summer. And yet the average salary in the district was a staggering $78,000 per year. And mind you - that may not sound much in some areas like New York City or California. But in this area, that is a TON of money. Who in the hell makes $78,000 for part time work?!? I know people who put in 60 hours per week and don't even come close to that kind of money.

I know of no teacher that only works during office hours. If they do, they're not a good teacher.

And I know of no people in the private sector (at least in the corporate world - might be different in the blue collar world, I don't really know) that only work office hours. What is your point?

Those teachers are still putting in anywhere from 50% to 75% less hours than the average American and making around 40% to 45% more money. It's so absurd there is no way to articulate it.

And for the record - their job is to teach and the students are not available to them after school hours. Which means they are not doing their core job after office hours. At most they might be grading a few papers with their feet up in front of the tv. Oooooh! Comparing a students answers to an answer key. And hell, their spouses and their children help with that most of the time anyway. Bottom line - it's the ultimate cush job. And I'm ok with that. I really am. But stop screwing the tax payer with these exorbitant salaries, healthcare plans, and retirement pensions. Pay them $35,000 year (more than fair for part time work), give them a good healthcare plan (not cadillac) and a good pension (again - not cadillac) and then sell them on the fact that they not only have job security, excellent benefits, but that they also get an extreme amount of personal time and vacation time. That is a FAIR total compensation package. I'm sick of these left-wing unions wanting their cake and eating it to. They want employees to make six-figures a year and work less than part time. Sorry, but that's not how the real world works.

I wish you would shadow a teacher for just one day and then you would realize how utterly stupid you are!

I make about $52,000 a year with 18 years service. I teach 130 students per day, which means about 260 pieces of paper that have to be graded and entered into a computer. I grade each paper, with no answer key because you cannot do that with math. English teachers have to read 10 essays each time they assign one. i work a minimum of 8 full hours day minimum, but usually about 10 hours per day, and then for about 4-6 hours on the weekend. Part-time? You have no clue.

I pay for my own retirement out of that $52,000 dollars, so I have no idea what Cadillac you are talking about. I pay a portion of my healthcare plan and would pay even more if my family was on it. Now, what other benefits are you talking about because I don't get any?

I just wish idiots like you would educate yourself or just shut up!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I don't believe liberal parents should be forced to make their children attend conservative public schools in red states and vice versa.

Home schooling is great if you want to raise a child with no exposure to any other ideas than your own,

Most people do not have the capability to home school because their own education is lacking or it is not feasible because of work schedules, etc.

If you can do it, great! If not, don't try to use it as a dodge for mandatory attendance laws or you will just be raising another idiot dependent on social services.

Home schooled children outperform their public school counterparts in every metric

That alone is reason to home school your kids

Prove it!

Require that high school dropout Mom that is teaching her kid to take the same tests as her public school counterpart teachers to prove the child is learning!

Go ahead! I dare you!

No one has! That is why your post stinks to high heaven.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I could not teach in today's world. Not for the pittance they are paid for putting up with today's entitled youth. I would never forego my earning potential to do that. Why anyone does is bizarre. Its so much easier to make double in the private sector for half the effort.

"pittance?" They hardly do any work. They have a 6 hour work day and they only work about 180 days out of the year. They get paid far more than they are worth, if you ask me.

Utterly ignorant. ^^^

That's not even remotely "utter ignorance" - it is 100% fact. We crunched the numbers for my children's school district and they work part time. Literally part time. Only 5 hours per day (which is absolutely laughable) and then they have 3 days at Thanksgiving, two weeks at Christmas, a week at Easter, plus a slew of days for stuff that nobody else in America gets time off for (like Presidents Day, Martin Luther King Jr. day, etc.), and of course, three months in summer. And yet the average salary in the district was a staggering $78,000 per year. And mind you - that may not sound much in some areas like New York City or California. But in this area, that is a TON of money. Who in the hell makes $78,000 for part time work?!? I know people who put in 60 hours per week and don't even come close to that kind of money.

Not to mention all the Cadillac benefits they get. Plus they have additional days off like teacher workshop days and all the other various administrative holidays.

We get Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas day, New Years Day, MLK Day, President's Day (sometimes), and that is it!

Please tell me where my Cadiallac benefits are, because I pay for them.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Actually, there's a lot of studies looking at the distance people have to travel to get to grocery stores in rural or very poor urban areas. It's shockingly bad. I can vouch for this as whenever I go visit family in Southern Illinois and/or Southern Indiana the distance to a grocery store is pretty rough.

That's one of the challenges you have to live with if you want to be a farmer. Schooling is another.

That's only acceptable if you're fine with creating a permanent serf class. Kids should have access to quality food and quality education regardless of location in the USA. Accepting anything less is accepting that America doesn't need to be exceptional and that "good enough" will do.

Public schools aren't *quality*.

That's a generalization. There are some good public schools.

Actually it's not the schools that are better, it's the parents that are better. In upscale neighborhoods the parents are educated professionals who are motivated for their children to learn. Most of what children learn is taught by their parents. Schools simply put a rubber stamp on it.

I have yet to meet many parents that can handle high school algebra!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

That's pretty much a homeschool myth.

It's no more BS than those claiming that in general home schooled kids to better than public educated children do. BOTH rely on slanted studies and anecdotal evidence to support the writer's preformed opinion

All I know is, the homeschooled students I have known were perhaps better mannered than the average kid but perfectly able to interact with peers. They were much better educated than their peers in public school. One-on-one instruction usually aces instruction in a large group. Most of these kids have siblings, neighborhood friends, and many are active in sports. At least none of the ones I've known were strange or socially lacking. I know that is anecdotal, but I am guessing your aversion to homeschooling is also based on one or two kids you have encountered somewhere along the way.

Also speaking anecdotally, the parents that do it right (Organized fieldtrips, sports, organized play dates/outings) raise children who are totally normal socially. They also raise children who are outstanding academically.

The parents who do it terribly usually give up and dump their kids back into public schools that by law have to take them in. That makes it hard to realistically track and compare test scores as failed homeschooled children end up in the public school testing pool. As I said though, if you can do it and do it well, you should. If you can't, don't. I work with my kids in the summer with a pretty rigid schedule on math, reading and writing. The personal cost to me is that it tanks my productivity in the summer to do it and the kids hate it. There's no way I could keep that up in the school year and work full time. Moral of the story: It wouldn't work for me full year.

I wish we had some way to track how homeschooled children are doing, once they've been taken out of public school, but there is no money in the budget or time in the day for school personnel to track and follow these kids. I've seen the 'dark side' of homeschooling, as well, when parents pulled kids out of school after the school reported abuse or neglect, or because the kid didn't feel like going and the parents didn't feel like arguing about it, or because the parent couldn't get out of bed to get the kid on the bus in the morning. I've also met parents so ignorant they can barely write their name, claiming they are "homeschooling." That can't be stopped, for some reason, and it is unfair to our kids. I'm quite sure that back in the 80's, there were rules that you needed a bachelor's degree in order to homeschool. That was overkill, but no follow up whatsoever is really a problem for some kids who aren't getting any education at all.

Lol. I think the percentage of public school kids who aren't getting an education is a LOT higher.

No, you didn't, or you would not have said what you did.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

That's only acceptable if you're fine with creating a permanent serf class. Kids should have access to quality food and quality education regardless of location in the USA. Accepting anything less is accepting that America doesn't need to be exceptional and that "good enough" will do.

Public schools aren't *quality*.

That's a generalization. There are some good public schools.

Actually it's not the schools that are better, it's the parents that are better. In upscale neighborhoods the parents are educated professionals who are motivated for their children to learn. Most of what children learn is taught by their parents. Schools simply put a rubber stamp on it.

That's simply not true. There are plenty of good parents in the zip codes with struggling schools. The problems are many and not easily boiled down to bumper stickers. Schools are underfunded, racially segregated (Which still happens, see Lincoln parish in Louisiana that was forced to desegregate in 2015), or the cost of living is high enough that both parents work multiple jobs.

I think though we can both agree that having a failing public school is simply unacceptable. I think a lot of the rancor stems from the idea of how you fix it.

The sad fact is public schools will continue to struggle as long as teachers' unions continue to have a stranglehold on the purse strings, regardless of whether the federal government is involved or not.

Really? What about the states where there are no teacher's unions? I'll bet you didn't even know they existed. I guess they must really be tearing up the record books since the lack of unions is the key to a good education! Wait! No. They aren't? Why not?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

The fix is not to point fingers at one particular aspect involved in a child's education. Look at all the factors and investigate then work with the primary problem.
It is to easy to find one bad instructor and blame the entire system.
But the right wingers find this as an easy way out.

Public schools aren't *quality*.

That's a generalization. There are some good public schools.

Actually it's not the schools that are better, it's the parents that are better. In upscale neighborhoods the parents are educated professionals who are motivated for their children to learn. Most of what children learn is taught by their parents. Schools simply put a rubber stamp on it.

That's simply not true. There are plenty of good parents in the zip codes with struggling schools. The problems are many and not easily boiled down to bumper stickers. Schools are underfunded, racially segregated (Which still happens, see Lincoln parish in Louisiana that was forced to desegregate in 2015), or the cost of living is high enough that both parents work multiple jobs.

I think though we can both agree that having a failing public school is simply unacceptable. I think a lot of the rancor stems from the idea of how you fix it.

Oh, I'm not suggesting teachers are the only problem, merely that it's a large problem.

Think about how much better a school could be if they could get rid of all the bad students and the bad teachers. As a teacher , of course why should we pay you to be substandard at your job? And as a student, why should we be forced to spend resources educating you if you don't care about your education?

Based on what?

 

[Katzndogz]

I don't believe liberal parents should be forced to make their children attend conservative public schools in red states and vice versa.

Home schooling is great if you want to raise a child with no exposure to any other ideas than your own,

Most people do not have the capability to home school because their own education is lacking or it is not feasible because of work schedules, etc.

If you can do it, great! If not, don't try to use it as a dodge for mandatory attendance laws or you will just be raising another idiot dependent on social services.

Home schooled children outperform their public school counterparts in every metric

That alone is reason to home school your kids

Prove it!

Require that high school dropout Mom that is teaching her kid to take the same tests as her public school counterpart teachers to prove the child is learning!

Go ahead! I dare you!

No one has! That is why your post stinks to high heaven.

You don't think that the parents are doing all the teaching do you?

 

[koshergrl]

It's no more BS than those claiming that in general home schooled kids to better than public educated children do. BOTH rely on slanted studies and anecdotal evidence to support the writer's preformed opinion

All I know is, the homeschooled students I have known were perhaps better mannered than the average kid but perfectly able to interact with peers. They were much better educated than their peers in public school. One-on-one instruction usually aces instruction in a large group. Most of these kids have siblings, neighborhood friends, and many are active in sports. At least none of the ones I've known were strange or socially lacking. I know that is anecdotal, but I am guessing your aversion to homeschooling is also based on one or two kids you have encountered somewhere along the way.

Also speaking anecdotally, the parents that do it right (Organized fieldtrips, sports, organized play dates/outings) raise children who are totally normal socially. They also raise children who are outstanding academically.

The parents who do it terribly usually give up and dump their kids back into public schools that by law have to take them in. That makes it hard to realistically track and compare test scores as failed homeschooled children end up in the public school testing pool. As I said though, if you can do it and do it well, you should. If you can't, don't. I work with my kids in the summer with a pretty rigid schedule on math, reading and writing. The personal cost to me is that it tanks my productivity in the summer to do it and the kids hate it. There's no way I could keep that up in the school year and work full time. Moral of the story: It wouldn't work for me full year.

I wish we had some way to track how homeschooled children are doing, once they've been taken out of public school, but there is no money in the budget or time in the day for school personnel to track and follow these kids. I've seen the 'dark side' of homeschooling, as well, when parents pulled kids out of school after the school reported abuse or neglect, or because the kid didn't feel like going and the parents didn't feel like arguing about it, or because the parent couldn't get out of bed to get the kid on the bus in the morning. I've also met parents so ignorant they can barely write their name, claiming they are "homeschooling." That can't be stopped, for some reason, and it is unfair to our kids. I'm quite sure that back in the 80's, there were rules that you needed a bachelor's degree in order to homeschool. That was overkill, but no follow up whatsoever is really a problem for some kids who aren't getting any education at all.

Lol. I think the percentage of public school kids who aren't getting an education is a LOT higher.

No, you didn't, or you would not have said what you did.

Awesome, you can read minds.