Is Capitalism Doomed?

[Big Fitz]

If anything is doomed it's centrally planned economies.

For the premise that capitalism is doomed to hold any water, it would have to be descriptive of the current state of the economy...But it isn't, so it doesn't.

Socialism after capitalism and you'll never be sicker...

Isn't that how it goes?

 

[BoycottTheday]

It going like this:

Past: Capitalism

Present: Socialism

Your future: Darwinism

imho.

 

[georgephillip]

In the same way right wingers can't fathom what Marx meant when he argued that globalization, financial innovation run wild and redistribution of income and wealth from labor to capital would lead capitalism to self destruct.

We "fathom" it quite well. That's why we call it "bullshit."

Could you be a little more specific? (probably not)

While you're at it explain when capitalism ever succeeded in preventing regularly occurring booms and busts that always result in concentrating the public wealth in fewer and fewer private hands.

 

[georgephillip]

HUH?

Capitalism was stabbed in its heart circa 1913 when the US created a central bank and adopted a heavy graduated income tax.

Capitalism's tomb was sealed by FDR in 1935

So what the fucketh are you talking about?

.

If we return the favor circa 2013 by stabbing the Fed in the heart, does the global economy crash and burneth?

Yep.

But removing a large cancerous tumor always causes inconvenience to the patient.

.

What if it kills the patient?

What are you proposing as an alternative to fiat currency?

 

[editec]

To enable market-oriented economies to operate as they should and can, we need to return to the right balance between markets and provision of public goods. That means moving away from both the Anglo-Saxon model of laissez-faire and voodoo economics and the continental European model of deficit-driven welfare states. Both are broken.

Bingo.

I think it not unreasonable to suggest that an economic system is broken when it fails to provide enough encentive to enough people that they're simply incapable of helping themselves AND the governments which oversee their society.

Now obviously our economic system is not yet completely on the skids, but I honestly doubt that the American middle class, or the European middle class can take much more bullshit from their cronny governments.

I also do NOT think what we have is really a very good example of CAPITALISM, anyway.

What we really have is a socialistic/cronny capitalism system feeding the super-wealthy at the expense of pretty much everyone else except the their toady and servant classes.

About 80% of the US population is this nation is getting hosed.

And while the disenfranchised population is as yet unsure who exactly to blame, it is a drop dead certainty they know that SOMEBODY is fucking them over.

And eventually, no amount of hate-your-neighbor propaganda is going to be enough to make the SHEEP LOOK UP in the direction they ought to have been looking to all along.

When a system fails in the way ours is failing us, it's the LEADERSHIP who ultimately is at fault.

So while this board's morons and tools will keep trying to convince us that the VICTIMS of this criminal system are the cause of our woes, eventually all but the most stupid among us are going to realize that the only people to blame are those who had the power and authority to make such a mess of things in the first place.

 

[georgephillip]

Oh yes, good liberals never evade taxes.

Rich liberals are at least as likely as rich conservatives to evade taxes.

Liberals who are not rich are more inclined to view the $340 billion in uncollected taxes, money that was actually owed to the government in 2001, as a crime than conservatives are.

 

[georgephillip]

Capitalism is merely the natural law of economics and trade. It can't be doomed. It's what happens when no outside force interferes.

What is government's natural role in capitalism?
Does capitalism exist without corporations?
Corporations don't exist without government.

Is Wall Street part of your fairy tale?

 

[georgephillip]

To enable market-oriented economies to operate as they should and can, we need to return to the right balance between markets and provision of public goods. That means moving away from both the Anglo-Saxon model of laissez-faire and voodoo economics and the continental European model of deficit-driven welfare states. Both are broken.

Bingo.

I think it not unreasonable to suggest that an economic system is broken when it fails to provide enough encentive to enough people that they're simply incapable of helping themselves AND the governments which oversee their society.

Now obviously our economic system is not yet completely on the skids, but I honestly doubt that the American middle class, or the European middle class can take much more bullshit from their cronny governments.

I also do NOT think what we have is really a very good example of CAPITALISM, anyway.

What we really have is a socialistic/cronny capitalism system feeding the super-wealthy at the expense of pretty much everyone else except the their toady and servant classes.

About 80% of the US population is this nation is getting hosed.

And while the disenfranchised population is as yet unsure who exactly to blame, it is a drop dead certainty they know that SOMEBODY is fucking them over.

And eventually, no amount of hate-your-neighbor propaganda is going to be enough to make the SHEEP LOOK UP in the direction they ought to have been looking to all along.

When a system fails in the way ours is failing us, it's the LEADERSHIP who ultimately is at fault.

So while this board's morons and tools will keep trying to convince us that the VICTIMS of this criminal system are the cause of our woes, eventually all but the most stupid among us are going to realize that the only people to blame are those who had the power and authority to make such a mess of things in the first place.

Are you saying our leaders are slaves to greed, Commie?

FWIW, David Cay Johnson has looked at a 45 year period between 1961 and 2006 and compared how the richest 400 Americans fared to the vast majority of their countrymen and women.

The bottom 90 percent of workers saw an average increase in real annual income of $9,276 over 45 years.

Even that modest gain over five decades had more to do with two-income households than with any real increase in wages throughout an era when adjusted GDP increased 227 percent. By 2006 families were working about 900 more hours every year for about the same after-tax income than that produced by a single job three or four decades earlier.

What about those 400 slaves to greed?

Their average income rose over those 45 years from $13.7 million to $263.3 million per year.
Combined with a 60% cut in taxes.

Obviously, we're going to have to fire a lot more teachers, firefighters and cops if our slaves to greed expect to continue receiving their entitlements.

Demand Side Blog: David Cay Johnston points to taxes helping the rich, but failing to assist the economy

 

[kiwiman127]

The US capitalist economy is driven by supply and demand. In order to have a healthy supple side, there needs to be demand. Over two-thirds of our economy is driven by consumer spending. Consumer spending has been dominated by the working class. But the last few years, the working class has been losing out in the US economy due to thirty years of no to little wage growth and last year reached a record low regarding their share of the US economy.
A capitalistic supply and demand economy can't survive without the demand. Without a prosperous working class the demand diminishes. There is no question why our economy isn't recovering from the recent recession and why the US never fully recovered from the recession of 2001, the declining status of demand is your answer. The USA capitalistic economy as it has been throughout history can't survive in a plutocratic society.
When I see posters bashing the working class, I see complete ignorance. When I see posters not fully nderstand the US economic structure of supply and demand, I see people who have no clue about economics.
Prove me wrong.

 

[Patrick2]

The US capitalist economy is driven by supply and demand. In order to have a healthy supple side, there needs to be demand. Over two-thirds of our economy is driven by consumer spending. Consumer spending has been dominated by the working class. But the last few years, the working class has been losing out in the US economy due to thirty years of no to little wage growth and last year reached a record low regarding their share of the US economy.
A capitalistic supply and demand economy can't survive without the demand. Without a prosperous working class the demand diminishes. There is no question why our economy isn't recovering from the recent recession and why the US never fully recovered from the recession of 2001, the declining status of demand is your answer. The USA capitalistic economy as it has been throughout history can't survive in a plutocratic society.
When I see posters bashing the working class, I see complete ignorance. When I see posters not fully nderstand the US economic structure of supply and demand, I see people who have no clue about economics.
Prove me wrong.

The stagnation in wages isn't due to any "plutocrat" boogeyman, but rather several longterm secular changes that can't be solved by leftwing agitprop;

- the failure of government schools

- the growth of hyper-regulation and strident anti-business attitudes and discouragement of entrepreneurship

- the gigantic, ever-increasing national debt

- the balkanization of society into divisive groups due to democrat identity politics, plus the illegal alien invasion

- the rise of the asian heartland as economic powers made possible by the casting aside socialism

- the uncontrolled entitlement programs

 

[kiwiman127]

The US capitalist economy is driven by supply and demand. In order to have a healthy supple side, there needs to be demand. Over two-thirds of our economy is driven by consumer spending. Consumer spending has been dominated by the working class. But the last few years, the working class has been losing out in the US economy due to thirty years of no to little wage growth and last year reached a record low regarding their share of the US economy.
A capitalistic supply and demand economy can't survive without the demand. Without a prosperous working class the demand diminishes. There is no question why our economy isn't recovering from the recent recession and why the US never fully recovered from the recession of 2001, the declining status of demand is your answer. The USA capitalistic economy as it has been throughout history can't survive in a plutocratic society.
When I see posters bashing the working class, I see complete ignorance. When I see posters not fully nderstand the US economic structure of supply and demand, I see people who have no clue about economics.
Prove me wrong.

The stagnation in wages isn't due to any "plutocrat" boogeyman, but rather several longterm secular changes that can't be solved by leftwing agitprop;

- the failure of government schools

- the growth of hyper-regulation and strident anti-business attitudes and discouragement of entrepreneurship

- the gigantic, ever-increasing national debt

- the balkanization of society into divisive groups due to democrat identity politics, plus the illegal alien invasion

- the rise of the asian heartland as economic powers made possible by the casting aside socialism

- the uncontrolled entitlement programs

Thanks for making my point about economc ignorance.

In a newspaper interview this month, Robert C. Doll, chief equity strategist at BlackRock, the largest money manager in the world, pointed out that the fortunes of U.S. companies and the fortunes of the country as a whole were diverging: “The U.S. stock market and the U.S. economy are increasingly different animals.”

Mr. Doll’s explanation for the shift was the increasing importance of international markets rather than the domestic one — of the rising middle class in emerging markets, rather than the stagnating one back home. He said that over the next five years, 70 percent of the incremental earnings of S.&P. 500 companies would come from outside the United States.
Chrystia Freeland | Analysis & Opinion | Reuters.com

 

[georgephillip]

The current crisis of capitalism that began in 2007 grew out of excessive debts in the US financial sector, households and non-financial enterprises across the country that was brought on by four decades of wage stagnation for 90% of Americans.

As costs rose most wages and salaries didn't. Debt substituted for income; Wall Street capitalized on that by filling mailboxes from coast to coast with applications for credit cards and by inventing new speculations on the rising US debts.

Those financial speculations also known as bets became even more valuable than the profits of non-financial firms which used outsourcing and union busting to keep their workers' wages flat even as rising productivity delivered ever more product per worker to the corporation.

It all worked until it didn't, i.e., when millions of US workers could no longer support their debt burden. The wealth and power accumulated by the FIRE sector since 1970 guaranteed massive government funded bailouts at the expense of the same workers who lost their jobs, homes and retirements.

Social Security, food stamps and aliens had nothing to do with it.

 

[georgephillip]

The US capitalist economy is driven by supply and demand. In order to have a healthy supple side, there needs to be demand. Over two-thirds of our economy is driven by consumer spending. Consumer spending has been dominated by the working class. But the last few years, the working class has been losing out in the US economy due to thirty years of no to little wage growth and last year reached a record low regarding their share of the US economy.
A capitalistic supply and demand economy can't survive without the demand. Without a prosperous working class the demand diminishes. There is no question why our economy isn't recovering from the recent recession and why the US never fully recovered from the recession of 2001, the declining status of demand is your answer. The USA capitalistic economy as it has been throughout history can't survive in a plutocratic society.
When I see posters bashing the working class, I see complete ignorance. When I see posters not fully nderstand the US economic structure of supply and demand, I see people who have no clue about economics.
Prove me wrong.

The stagnation in wages isn't due to any "plutocrat" boogeyman, but rather several longterm secular changes that can't be solved by leftwing agitprop;

- the failure of government schools

- the growth of hyper-regulation and strident anti-business attitudes and discouragement of entrepreneurship

- the gigantic, ever-increasing national debt

- the balkanization of society into divisive groups due to democrat identity politics, plus the illegal alien invasion

- the rise of the asian heartland as economic powers made possible by the casting aside socialism

- the uncontrolled entitlement programs

Thanks for making my point about economc ignorance.

In a newspaper interview this month, Robert C. Doll, chief equity strategist at BlackRock, the largest money manager in the world, pointed out that the fortunes of U.S. companies and the fortunes of the country as a whole were diverging: “The U.S. stock market and the U.S. economy are increasingly different animals.”

Mr. Doll’s explanation for the shift was the increasing importance of international markets rather than the domestic one — of the rising middle class in emerging markets, rather than the stagnating one back home. He said that over the next five years, 70 percent of the incremental earnings of S.&P. 500 companies would come from outside the United States.
Chrystia Freeland | Analysis & Opinion | Reuters.com

Thanks for your link.

"The move to consumers from emerging markets is just part of the story.

"Within the United States, Madison Avenue is discovering that the age of the American mass consumer may be drawing to an end. Instead, a new white paper by Ad Age, the industry’s trade journal, argues that growing income inequality means the only buyers who count are those at the top.

“Simply put, as the discrepancy between the rich and poor has become more and more stark, a small plutocracy of wealthy elites drives a larger and larger share of total consumer spending,” the paper concludes, citing research that shows the top 10 percent of U.S. households account for nearly 50 percent of all consumer spending. 'It appears that mass affluence may be a thing of the past — and that luxury marketers should reconsider how their products appeal to elite consumers.'

"It is hard to overemphasize the importance of this business shift from the U.S. middle class to the rich at home and the hundreds of millions graduating into the middle class in the emerging markets."

Chrystia Freeland | Analysis & Opinion | Reuters.com

 

[kiwiman127]

The share of income growth going to employee compensation was far lower than in the four other economic recoveries that have occurred over the last three decades, the study found.

“The lack of any net job growth in the current recovery combined with stagnant real hourly and weekly wages is responsible for this unique, devastating outcome,” wrote the report’s authors, Andrew Sum, Ishwar Khatiwada, Joseph McLaughlin and Sheila Palma.

The Wageless, Profitable Recovery - NYTimes.com

Just another point that shows that flat wages coincide with a decrease in demand.

 

[Big Fitz]

When the last barter is made, then capitalism will die. Till then, it is immortal.

 

[georgephillip]

The share of income growth going to employee compensation was far lower than in the four other economic recoveries that have occurred over the last three decades, the study found.

“The lack of any net job growth in the current recovery combined with stagnant real hourly and weekly wages is responsible for this unique, devastating outcome,” wrote the report’s authors, Andrew Sum, Ishwar Khatiwada, Joseph McLaughlin and Sheila Palma.

The Wageless, Profitable Recovery - NYTimes.com

Just another point that shows that flat wages coincide with a decrease in demand.

Where's Henry when you really need him?

I think the time is rapidly approaching in this country for a serious discussion about whether or not capitalism is still capable of providing jobs to all who need one. If not, what takes its place?

 

[Kuros]

The essential argument boils down to this:

(1) It is completely capitalist and disgusting that the banks hijacked the economy and heisted a bailout for their bad faith efforts.

(2) It is completely socialist and disgusting that the banks hijacked the economy and heisted a bailout for their bad faith efforts.

Privatized gain; socialized losses. Capitalism or socialism? One thing we should all agree on: its disgusting. We need to unite around that.

 

[georgephillip]

When the last barter is made, then capitalism will die. Till then, it is immortal.

Capitalism is about as immortal as a tulip.

"The history of capitalism can be traced back to early forms of merchant capitalism practiced in Western Europe during the Middle Ages,[1] though many economic historians consider the Netherlands as the first thoroughly capitalist country.

"In Early modern Europe it featured the wealthiest trading city (Amsterdam) and the first full-time stock exchange.

"The inventiveness of the traders led to insurance and retirement funds as well along with much less benign phenomena such as the boom-bust cycle, the world's first asset-inflation bubble, the tulip mania of 1636–1637, and according to Murray Sayle, the world's first bear raider – Isaac le Maire, who in 1607 forced prices down by dumping stock and then buying it back at a discount.[2]"

History of capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Steelplate]

WHO IS IT WHO GETS PREFERENTIAL TAX TREATMENT? THE RICH? THINK AGAIN, SPARKY.

Look at your chart... for the love of God man.... $11k or less/year? These are the people you are pissed at? yeah... they don't need no help.. let them eat cake.

 

[Big Fitz]

WHO IS IT WHO GETS PREFERENTIAL TAX TREATMENT? THE RICH? THINK AGAIN, SPARKY.

Look at your chart... for the love of God man.... $11k or less/year? These are the people you are pissed at? yeah... they don't need no help.. let them eat cake.

Soooo... the more money you make, the less you are an American? Is that how we're working the system now? Pay more, get less because in the eyes of government you are worth less, save the amount of parasites you support?

good thinking!