Interesting physics problem

[Old Rocks]

Very interesting problem. This is the kind of conundrum that leads to new discoveries.

Discovery that quasars don't show time dilation mystifies astronomers

Discovery that quasars don't show time dilation mystifies astronomers
April 9, 2010 by Lisa Zyga Enlarge
This X-ray image shows the quasar PKS 1127-145, a highly luminous source of X-rays and visible light located about 10 billion light years from Earth. Its X-ray jet extends at least a million light years from the quasar. Credit: NASA.

(PhysOrg.com) -- The phenomenon of time dilation is a strange yet experimentally confirmed effect of relativity theory. One of its implications is that events occurring in distant parts of the universe should appear to occur more slowly than events located closer to us. For example, when observing supernovae, scientists have found that distant explosions seem to fade more slowly than the quickly-fading nearby supernovae.


The effect can be explained because (1) the speed of light is a constant (independent of how fast a light source is moving toward or away from an observer) and (2) the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, which causes light from distant objects to redshift (i.e. the wavelengths to become longer) in relation to how far away the objects are from observers on Earth. In other words, as space expands, the interval between light pulses also lengthens. Since expansion occurs throughout the universe, it seems that time dilation should be a property of the universe that holds true everywhere, regardless of the specific object or event being observed. However, a new study has found that this doesn’t seem to be the case - quasars, it seems, give off light pulses at the same rate no matter their distance from the Earth, without a hint of time dilation.

 

[amrchaos]

Time Dilation occurs if the object is moving relative to us. It is theorized that the Universe is expanding so that objects far away from us are believed to moe away from us at high speeds.

Yet it is possible that there are objects that are moving at sub-relative speeds and therefore we should not see time dilation in them. But for every quasar to exhibit this phenome is truely strange. There may be more to the curvature of space than what we realize. We know that gravity(of the quasar in this case) could effect light as well. Even so, there should be a detectable effect of the light from the quasar that differs from one to another.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Has anyone considered the possibility that its Global Warming on a galactic scale?

 

[xsited1]

Has anyone considered the possibility that its Global Warming on a galactic scale?

Now that's just silly. These quasars are 10 billion light years away and everyone knows SUVs didn't exist 10 billion years ago.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Time Dilation occurs if the object is moving relative to us. It is theorized that the Universe is expanding so that objects far away from us are believed to moe away from us at high speeds.

Yet it is possible that there are objects that are moving at sub-relative speeds and therefore we should not see time dilation in them. But for every quasar to exhibit this phenome is truely strange. There may be more to the curvature of space than what we realize. We know that gravity(of the quasar in this case) could effect light as well. Even so, there should be a detectable effect of the light from the quasar that differs from one to another.

I wonder if it could possibly be because they are away from gravity? Remember, in the first time experiment, they took 2 atomic clocks and synchronized them. One was left on the ground, and one was flown at 30,000 feet for a while.

The one in the airplane was slower than the one on the ground.

We also know that quasars and pulsars are collapsed stars that exploded, so would there be a possibility that during the explosion, they flung away all their mass, and the reason they are all constant is because they all have the same amount of mass/gravity?

 

[xsited1]

Time Dilation occurs if the object is moving relative to us. It is theorized that the Universe is expanding so that objects far away from us are believed to moe away from us at high speeds.

Yet it is possible that there are objects that are moving at sub-relative speeds and therefore we should not see time dilation in them. But for every quasar to exhibit this phenome is truely strange. There may be more to the curvature of space than what we realize. We know that gravity(of the quasar in this case) could effect light as well. Even so, there should be a detectable effect of the light from the quasar that differs from one to another.

All objects are moving at sub-relative speeds. (Except for the Star Ship Enterprise, of course.) But I agree with you here: "There may be more to the curvature of space than what we realize." I can go along with this, but why are only quasars affected? Strange. Could be due to their distance, but that doesn't really make sense to me. The article ends with "There’s also a possibility that the explanation could be even more far-reaching, such as that the universe is not expanding and that the big bang theory is wrong." In any case, the theory will have to be updated.

This is truly a stunning discovery and quite baffling. I'm gonna have to rep the OP for posting this.

 

[amrchaos]

Time Dilation occurs if the object is moving relative to us. It is theorized that the Universe is expanding so that objects far away from us are believed to moe away from us at high speeds.

Yet it is possible that there are objects that are moving at sub-relative speeds and therefore we should not see time dilation in them. But for every quasar to exhibit this phenome is truely strange. There may be more to the curvature of space than what we realize. We know that gravity(of the quasar in this case) could effect light as well. Even so, there should be a detectable effect of the light from the quasar that differs from one to another.

I wonder if it could possibly be because they are away from gravity? Remember, in the first time experiment, they took 2 atomic clocks and synchronized them. One was left on the ground, and one was flown at 30,000 feet for a while.

The one in the airplane was slower than the one on the ground.

We also know that quasars and pulsars are collapsed stars that exploded, so would there be a possibility that during the explosion, they flung away all their mass, and the reason they are all constant is because they all have the same amount of mass/gravity?

Even collapsed stars moving from us at relativistic speeds should show some dilation. Even a near massless object, if it pulsates light, will show dilation.

The reason I suggested the mass of the Qusar is the idea that at some point, the light will get outside the mass shell of the quasar. When this occurs, the full gravitational effect of the quasar should take effect(Before, when the light was inside the shell, the only gravitational effect experienced by the quasar was the core that was still intact! The gravitational effect inside the shell can be considered negligble if we considered the lost mass is distributed uniformly. The gravitational force should take full effect once the light leaves the shell. Even so, the more I think about it, the more I come to believe that quasars should have a large redshift and not a neglible one.

 

[saveliberty]

Time Dilation occurs if the object is moving relative to us. It is theorized that the Universe is expanding so that objects far away from us are believed to moe away from us at high speeds.

Yet it is possible that there are objects that are moving at sub-relative speeds and therefore we should not see time dilation in them. But for every quasar to exhibit this phenome is truely strange. There may be more to the curvature of space than what we realize. We know that gravity(of the quasar in this case) could effect light as well. Even so, there should be a detectable effect of the light from the quasar that differs from one to another.

I wonder if it could possibly be because they are away from gravity? Remember, in the first time experiment, they took 2 atomic clocks and synchronized them. One was left on the ground, and one was flown at 30,000 feet for a while.

The one in the airplane was slower than the one on the ground.

We also know that quasars and pulsars are collapsed stars that exploded, so would there be a possibility that during the explosion, they flung away all their mass, and the reason they are all constant is because they all have the same amount of mass/gravity?

You are really reaching here. A massless object, yet with a gravitational field large enough to bend light?

 

[Missourian]

It's possible that redshift is caused by gravitation and not by the doppler effect.

Quasars gain their immense luminosity from their proximity to the accretion disc of a black hole. If their red shift is caused by gravitational bending then they are not as distant as the Doppler based redshift calculations determine them to be (and they may not be moving away from us).

This would throw the Big Bang Theory a serious curve ball, as it's basis is rooted in the certainty of Doppler based redshift.

​

 

[saveliberty]

It's possible that redshift is caused by gravitation and not by the doppler effect.

Quasars gain their immense luminosity from their proximity to the accretion disc of a black hole. If their red shift is caused by gravitational bending then they are not as distant as the Doppler based redshift calculations determine them to be (and they may not be moving away from us).

This would throw the Big Bang Theory a serious curve ball, as it's basis is rooted in the certainty of Doppler based redshift.

​

The black hole's influence makes more sense to me.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The Pioneer anomaly shows that gravity won't cooperate with our theories about it; so I don't know why we expect our fiction of "Time" to cooperate

 

[CrusaderFrank]

bump

 

[Quantum Windbag]

This is simple to explain, the quasars are not moving relative to Earth. The problem now becomes explaining why they are not moving, not why light behaves differently when coming from quasars. Trust me on this, the latter will be a lot easier to explain, someday.

 

[Old Rocks]

No opinion at all on what is going on. Very interesting problem for this generation of physicists. Wonder what they will come up with, and what avenues of knowledge that it will open up.

 

[rdean]

No opinion at all on what is going on. Very interesting problem for this generation of physicists. Wonder what they will come up with, and what avenues of knowledge that it will open up.

Unfortunately, it probably won't happen in this country. We've lost the will to "know".

Dr. Miller's data reveal some yawning gaps in basic knowledge. American adults in general do not understand what molecules are (other than that they are really small). Fewer than a third can identify DNA as a key to heredity. Only about 10 percent know what radiation is. One adult American in five thinks the Sun revolves around the Earth, an idea science had abandoned by the 17th century.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/science/30profile.html