Insight: GM's Volt: The ugly math of low sales, high costs

[EdwardBaiamonte]

......

How is your electric car doing?

Wonderfully! Thanks for asking. Over 7,000 miles in almost 7 months and only used 3.7 gallons of dead dinosaur juice. Has not seen a gas pump since we took possession in March. We have 5.6 more gallons of dealer supplied gas left in the tank. That ought to get us to January, maybe February. Then the program that burns all gas not used in 12 months will kick in and we'll finally have to fill up.

Well its good to know they have made progress with electric. That way if oil ever gets expensive we'll have a substitute.

During the 70's oil crisis they said we'd be out by 1990. And that was before SUV's and before China and India were buying 25 million cars a year. It seems even with huge population and car and SUV growth we still have more oil than ever. Go figure.

 

[Papageorgio]

......

How is your electric car doing?

Wonderfully! Thanks for asking. Over 7,000 miles in almost 7 months and only used 3.7 gallons of dead dinosaur juice. Has not seen a gas pump since we took possession in March. We have 5.6 more gallons of dealer supplied gas left in the tank. That ought to get us to January, maybe February. Then the program that burns all gas not used in 12 months will kick in and we'll finally have to fill up.

Sorry, I thought you had an all electric.

 

[martinjlm]

It is an electric with extended range. Gas engine only turns on when electric is fully depleted (very rarely) or for brief spurts every six weeks just to keep the bearings and seals lubricated and the pistons conditioned. Burns about 0.1 gallons when that happens.

 

[daveman]

It's really sad when Americans cheer for the failure of one of it's own companies and all because of the complete control their ideology has over them. And these same people claim to love their country. Liars.

On another note: Toyota hybrids: Carmaker to expand range of models Toyota hybrids: Carmaker to expand range of models | Indianapolis Star | indystar.com

So there is market for hybrids. GM just has to figure out how to capture their segment of the market and how to convince the domestic haters of America to buy their cars.

The Chevy Volt is not America.

Idiot.

 

[daveman]

You didn't have a problem with that before...

I have no problem with the government buying things, except when the things they're buying are crap in order to pay back Democrat special interest groups.

The purpose of the US Treasury is not to repay Obama's donors.

So Daveman, is Obama the first ever president to ever contrive a way to pay back those who have donated money to their campaigns? No. But let's just pin that one on Obama, OK?

Name one GOP President who gave a half a billion dollars to a campaign contributor, whose company then went bankrupt.

Hit: You can't.

Now if Big Money was out of politics,,,,,,,,,,,,,,!

But of course, you don't mean Big Union Money, do you?

 

[daveman]

You didn't have a problem with that before...

I have no problem with the government buying things, except when the things they're buying are crap in order to pay back Democrat special interest groups.

The purpose of the US Treasury is not to repay Obama's donors.

And as usual, no proof of anything at all. Just con dogma. What a surprise.

It's really not my fault you're not paying attention.

Of course, if you were paying attention, you wouldn't be an Obamabot.

United Auto Workers: Summary | OpenSecrets

Since 1990, the UAW has donated $27,819,437 to Democrats, and only $185,500 to the GOP.

The GM bailout was political payback. You can tell because the union pension fund was paid before investors.

President Obama’s restructuring of GM meant wiping out the bondholders and the previous stockholders, as well as putting thousands of mechanics and salesmen out of work by needlessly closing more than 1,000 dealerships. When the tough budget cutting decisions had to be made, all employees weren’t treated equally. UAW (union) workers, current and retired, were exempt from pay cuts and benefit losses, while non-union workers lost up to 70 percent of theirs. Also, GM received a $14 billion tax-credit. So even though they’re now earnin huge profits, they’re paying zero in income taxes.​

You can consider my point proven.

But you won't. Predictably.

 

[martinjlm]

.....

Well its good to know they have made progress with electric. That way if oil ever gets expensive we'll have a substitute.

During the 70's oil crisis they said we'd be out by 1990. And that was before SUV's and before China and India were buying 25 million cars a year. It seems even with huge population and car and SUV growth we still have more oil than ever. Go figure.

That is EXACTLY the point of President Obama's TARGET of 1 million electric vehicles (out of approximately 60 million cars sold in that timeframe). Until someone starts producing electric vehicles in some modest volume, the technology will not be improved enough or cost reduced enough to make it a viable option SHOULD the option be needed. If GM, Ford, and Chrysler don't do something to prove electric vehicle, plug-in hybrid, or extended range electric vehicles are viable, other companies who are currently TRAILING American automakers in electric vehicle development will come in and take control of the US market.

Here at the Paris Auto Show, Audi has announced that they will provide a plug-in hybrid version of every vehicle in their lineup by 2020. Similar to Toyota / Lexus statements from 5 years ago to offer a hybrid version of every vehicle in their lineup by 2015. News flash.....Toyota is on pace to do just that.

And BMW is creating an entire line of electric and plug-in hybrid products called their "i-Series". Hyundai announced at Paris yesterday that they will start selling Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles in Copenhagen by the end of this year. They will spread sales to Europe and the US by 2015.

People can hate electric vehicles and hybrids all they want, it's not gonna stop them from being offered. Of course, you do not have to buy one if you don't like them, but fact of the matter is, with the 2016 and 2020 fuel economy and emissions regulations, the only way some people will be able to buy pickup trucks and SUVs is if someone else buys enough hybrids and electrics to give manufacturers enough room in their CAFE standing to offset the poor fuel economy of their pickups and SUV. These fuel economy and emissions regulations are law.

 

[daveman]

.......U.S. President Barack Obama has set a goal of getting one million electric vehicles on the road by 2015, a target many analysts say will be impossible to achieve.[/INDENT]
President Obama probably shouldn't get a job as an auto industry analyst next year.

So glad this came up. Let's do a little math......

The U.S. light duty vehicle market (cars and personal trucks and SUVs, but not trucks with GVW over 8,600 lbs) typically ranges from 12 million a year in a very bad year to as much as 16 million in a very good year. Now, President Obama made that statement sometime in 2009 or 2010. I'll err on the conservative side and start my counting in 2011, that way we know it begins after he said it. Keep in mind that he said 1 million sold BY 2015, not IN 2015.

In 2011 there were 13 million vehicles sold. 2012 looks like it's gonna come in around 14.5 million. For giggles and grins, we'll assume things aren't gonna get any better (economists are predicting continued growth in auto sales, but we'll ignore that for now). Let's say that 2013, 2014, and 2015 all come in at 14.0 million. Lower than 2012. We also won't consider the fact that millions of vehicles sold before 2011 are and will still be on the road. That means since President Obama set the goal for 1 million electric vehicles on the road by 2015, the US market would have added 59.5 million more vehicles to the US car parq (yes, parq is a word...google it). So the President is setting a goal that 1 out of 60 new cars added to the roads be electrically powered. Yeah, I guess i can see how that can be interpretted as holding a gun to your head and making you buy an electric vehicle. <-----Folks, that right thar is sarcasm, case ya didn't notice.. That's about 1.6% of new car sales.

And as far as whether or not President Obama would make a good automotive analyst or not....I don't know (or care) but what I DO know is that I AM an automotive analyst and I must be doing fairly well at it, based on what they're paying me.

For what it's worth I'm in Paris right now covering the Mondial de Automobile (Paris Auto Show). The hottest car in the place right now is a shocking blue Mercedes S Class AMG. Folks, it's electric. 100%. And Mercedes announced that it officially goes on sale today. And they showed a smaller less expensive all electric vehicle that goes on sale in mid 2013. And President Obama had nothing to do with these. Mercedes decided that they needed to build these vehicles and they're doing it. Factor in the fact that an all new vehicle program takes at least three and usually closer to five years to come to market and it becomes apparent that Mercedes was working on one or both of these cars before President Obama took office. Hmmmmmm.


I'll post pictures when I get back stateside.

The electric Mercedes AMG?

And you can only buy it if you live in Europe and can afford to shell out $434,000 $537,000.​

Yeah. THAT'LL be popular amongst the patchouli-reeking set.

And as for ts little brother, the B-Class, no price has been announced. But it will be way over even GM's actual cost for the Volt.

I don't know many people who can afford either. Do you, Mr. Auto Analyst?

 

[Papageorgio]

.....

Well its good to know they have made progress with electric. That way if oil ever gets expensive we'll have a substitute.

During the 70's oil crisis they said we'd be out by 1990. And that was before SUV's and before China and India were buying 25 million cars a year. It seems even with huge population and car and SUV growth we still have more oil than ever. Go figure.

That is EXACTLY the point of President Obama's TARGET of 1 million electric vehicles (out of approximately 60 million cars sold in that timeframe). Until someone starts producing electric vehicles in some modest volume, the technology will not be improved enough or cost reduced enough to make it a viable option SHOULD the option be needed. If GM, Ford, and Chrysler don't do something to prove electric vehicle, plug-in hybrid, or extended range electric vehicles are viable, other companies who are currently TRAILING American automakers in electric vehicle development will come in and take control of the US market.

Here at the Paris Auto Show, Audi has announced that they will provide a plug-in hybrid version of every vehicle in their lineup by 2020. Similar to Toyota / Lexus statements from 5 years ago to offer a hybrid version of every vehicle in their lineup by 2015. News flash.....Toyota is on pace to do just that.

And BMW is creating an entire line of electric and plug-in hybrid products called their "i-Series". Hyundai announced at Paris yesterday that they will start selling Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles in Copenhagen by the end of this year. They will spread sales to Europe and the US by 2015.

People can hate electric vehicles and hybrids all they want, it's not gonna stop them from being offered. Of course, you do not have to buy one if you don't like them, but fact of the matter is, with the 2016 and 2020 fuel economy and emissions regulations, the only way some people will be able to buy pickup trucks and SUVs is if someone else buys enough hybrids and electrics to give manufacturers enough room in their CAFE standing to offset the poor fuel economy of their pickups and SUV. These fuel economy and emissions regulations are law.

Who hates them?

 

[daveman]

.....

Well its good to know they have made progress with electric. That way if oil ever gets expensive we'll have a substitute.

During the 70's oil crisis they said we'd be out by 1990. And that was before SUV's and before China and India were buying 25 million cars a year. It seems even with huge population and car and SUV growth we still have more oil than ever. Go figure.

That is EXACTLY the point of President Obama's TARGET of 1 million electric vehicles (out of approximately 60 million cars sold in that timeframe). Until someone starts producing electric vehicles in some modest volume, the technology will not be improved enough or cost reduced enough to make it a viable option SHOULD the option be needed. If GM, Ford, and Chrysler don't do something to prove electric vehicle, plug-in hybrid, or extended range electric vehicles are viable, other companies who are currently TRAILING American automakers in electric vehicle development will come in and take control of the US market.

Here at the Paris Auto Show, Audi has announced that they will provide a plug-in hybrid version of every vehicle in their lineup by 2020. Similar to Toyota / Lexus statements from 5 years ago to offer a hybrid version of every vehicle in their lineup by 2015. News flash.....Toyota is on pace to do just that.

And BMW is creating an entire line of electric and plug-in hybrid products called their "i-Series". Hyundai announced at Paris yesterday that they will start selling Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles in Copenhagen by the end of this year. They will spread sales to Europe and the US by 2015.

People can hate electric vehicles and hybrids all they want, it's not gonna stop them from being offered. Of course, you do not have to buy one if you don't like them, but fact of the matter is, with the 2016 and 2020 fuel economy and emissions regulations, the only way some people will be able to buy pickup trucks and SUVs is if someone else buys enough hybrids and electrics to give manufacturers enough room in their CAFE standing to offset the poor fuel economy of their pickups and SUV. These fuel economy and emissions regulations are law.

For some people, pickups and SUVs are the only possible vehicle.

Outside of science fiction, no electric vehicle is going to replace this truck:

 

[martinjlm]

.....

Well its good to know they have made progress with electric. That way if oil ever gets expensive we'll have a substitute.

During the 70's oil crisis they said we'd be out by 1990. And that was before SUV's and before China and India were buying 25 million cars a year. It seems even with huge population and car and SUV growth we still have more oil than ever. Go figure.

That is EXACTLY the point of President Obama's TARGET of 1 million electric vehicles (out of approximately 60 million cars sold in that timeframe). Until someone starts producing electric vehicles in some modest volume, the technology will not be improved enough or cost reduced enough to make it a viable option SHOULD the option be needed. If GM, Ford, and Chrysler don't do something to prove electric vehicle, plug-in hybrid, or extended range electric vehicles are viable, other companies who are currently TRAILING American automakers in electric vehicle development will come in and take control of the US market.

Here at the Paris Auto Show, Audi has announced that they will provide a plug-in hybrid version of every vehicle in their lineup by 2020. Similar to Toyota / Lexus statements from 5 years ago to offer a hybrid version of every vehicle in their lineup by 2015. News flash.....Toyota is on pace to do just that.

And BMW is creating an entire line of electric and plug-in hybrid products called their "i-Series". Hyundai announced at Paris yesterday that they will start selling Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles in Copenhagen by the end of this year. They will spread sales to Europe and the US by 2015.

People can hate electric vehicles and hybrids all they want, it's not gonna stop them from being offered. Of course, you do not have to buy one if you don't like them, but fact of the matter is, with the 2016 and 2020 fuel economy and emissions regulations, the only way some people will be able to buy pickup trucks and SUVs is if someone else buys enough hybrids and electrics to give manufacturers enough room in their CAFE standing to offset the poor fuel economy of their pickups and SUV. These fuel economy and emissions regulations are law.

Who hates them?

Actually that bit was not directed towards you personally, but if you read through this thread and any other thread where the words Volt, electric vehicle, or hybrid appear, a few consistent usernames pop up.

 

[martinjlm]

...........

The electric Mercedes AMG?

And you can only buy it if you live in Europe and can afford to shell out $434,000 $537,000.​

Yeah. THAT'LL be popular amongst the patchouli-reeking set.

And as for ts little brother, the B-Class, no price has been announced. But it will be way over even GM's actual cost for the Volt.

I don't know many people who can afford either. Do you, Mr. Auto Analyst?

I mention the SLS AMG Electric and the B Class electric only to point out that electric vehicles are being launched at all segments of the market. On the other end of the spectrum, Mercedes parent company, Daimler AG also owns Smart which will be offering their own EV. Too small for most U.S. buyers' tastes, but relatively inexpensive. Ford Focus EV just recently went on sale in the U.S. and GM will soon launch a Spark EV. Obviously, neither of these will be priced anywhere near any of the Mercedes EVs. Again, the point is, if EV is such a horrible idea, why are so many companies spending billions of dollars to develop them and bring them to market. In Europe, the Renault Zoe, about the size of a Nissan Sentra or Chevrolet Sonic is about to launch? The Fluence, about the size of Toyota Corolla or Chevy Cruze will follow shortly. Both are 100% electric. I also pointed out in my earlier note that Audi is planning to offer PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles) in every nameplate in their line up. They'll be offering those in the U.S., Europe, and China.

Again, the point is EV, EREV, and PHEV will be offered by almost every automaker in every segment of the market by 2015. So if people think GM is following a losing strategy with Volt, then there are at least 10 major automakers that are following them off the cliff. Could it be that they may know a little more than a handful of "electric vehicles don't make any sense" newsgroup curmudgeons?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

So if people think GM is following a losing strategy with Volt, then there are at least 10 major automakers that are following them off the cliff.

what people think is that its idiotic to steal tax money for the Volt when there is already huge private sector involvement all over the world. Either you are an idiot and believe socialism works, or you are intelligent and don't.

 

[daveman]

...........

The electric Mercedes AMG?

And you can only buy it if you live in Europe and can afford to shell out $434,000 $537,000.​

Yeah. THAT'LL be popular amongst the patchouli-reeking set.

And as for ts little brother, the B-Class, no price has been announced. But it will be way over even GM's actual cost for the Volt.

I don't know many people who can afford either. Do you, Mr. Auto Analyst?

I mention the SLS AMG Electric and the B Class electric only to point out that electric vehicles are being launched at all segments of the market. On the other end of the spectrum, Mercedes parent company, Daimler AG also owns Smart which will be offering their own EV. Too small for most U.S. buyers' tastes, but relatively inexpensive. Ford Focus EV just recently went on sale in the U.S. and GM will soon launch a Spark EV. Obviously, neither of these will be priced anywhere near any of the Mercedes EVs. Again, the point is, if EV is such a horrible idea, why are so many companies spending billions of dollars to develop them and bring them to market. In Europe, the Renault Zoe, about the size of a Nissan Sentra or Chevrolet Sonic is about to launch? The Fluence, about the size of Toyota Corolla or Chevy Cruze will follow shortly. Both are 100% electric. I also pointed out in my earlier note that Audi is planning to offer PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles) in every nameplate in their line up. They'll be offering those in the U.S., Europe, and China.

Again, the point is EV, EREV, and PHEV will be offered by almost every automaker in every segment of the market by 2015. So if people think GM is following a losing strategy with Volt, then there are at least 10 major automakers that are following them off the cliff. Could it be that they may know a little more than a handful of "electric vehicles don't make any sense" newsgroup curmudgeons?

They might -- especially if they aren't flushing huge amounts of cash down the toilet developing their vehicles.

Chevy needs to take notes.

 

[asterism]

It's really sad when Americans cheer for the failure of one of it's own companies and all because of the complete control their ideology has over them. And these same people claim to love their country. Liars.

On another note: Toyota hybrids: Carmaker to expand range of models Toyota hybrids: Carmaker to expand range of models | Indianapolis Star | indystar.com

So there is market for hybrids. GM just has to figure out how to capture their segment of the market and how to convince the domestic haters of America to buy their cars.

That's a very telling comment. You don't see the problem being a substandard product that's too expensive, you see the problem as one of "convincing" people to buy. That's why left leaning command economics fails. They deal in messaging instead of market, convincing instead of offering.

The Volt is too expensive and 35 miles is too short. In the real world, the Chevy Cruze is a more eco-friendly car at half the cost.

Link

 

[asterism]

Ford would have loved to see GM close their doors,just like Nash,American motors,packard,cord,and countless others have.The world din't end,and the demand was absorbed by other manufactures.

If DC wanted to bail out people they should have gone to main street.

Chickenwing says:

Ford would have loved to see GM close their doors,just like Nash,American motors,packard,cord,and countless others have.

"

I don't think so:
"Mulally's comments weren't offered as a criticism of Romney. Rather, he was defending Ford's decision to go to Congress with GM and Chrysler in 2008 to call for a federal rescue."
Ford's CEO has no regrets about call for bailout - Los Angeles Times

That would be the chairman of ford making your statement look rather lame.

lame?? You mean Ford shareholders actually like competition that limits their income???? Do most companies want to see their competition thrive or go bankrupt?

Why do you try to think at all??

To be fair, I do remember the CEO of Ford stating that a GM liquidation (not bankruptcy and restructuring, a full liquidation) would hurt them greatly because their many shared suppliers would also fold.

But Ford did run an ad campaign touting their ability to compete without bailouts.

 

[asterism]

.....

Well its good to know they have made progress with electric. That way if oil ever gets expensive we'll have a substitute.

During the 70's oil crisis they said we'd be out by 1990. And that was before SUV's and before China and India were buying 25 million cars a year. It seems even with huge population and car and SUV growth we still have more oil than ever. Go figure.

That is EXACTLY the point of President Obama's TARGET of 1 million electric vehicles (out of approximately 60 million cars sold in that timeframe). Until someone starts producing electric vehicles in some modest volume, the technology will not be improved enough or cost reduced enough to make it a viable option SHOULD the option be needed. If GM, Ford, and Chrysler don't do something to prove electric vehicle, plug-in hybrid, or extended range electric vehicles are viable, other companies who are currently TRAILING American automakers in electric vehicle development will come in and take control of the US market.

Here at the Paris Auto Show, Audi has announced that they will provide a plug-in hybrid version of every vehicle in their lineup by 2020. Similar to Toyota / Lexus statements from 5 years ago to offer a hybrid version of every vehicle in their lineup by 2015. News flash.....Toyota is on pace to do just that.

And BMW is creating an entire line of electric and plug-in hybrid products called their "i-Series". Hyundai announced at Paris yesterday that they will start selling Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles in Copenhagen by the end of this year. They will spread sales to Europe and the US by 2015.

People can hate electric vehicles and hybrids all they want, it's not gonna stop them from being offered. Of course, you do not have to buy one if you don't like them, but fact of the matter is, with the 2016 and 2020 fuel economy and emissions regulations, the only way some people will be able to buy pickup trucks and SUVs is if someone else buys enough hybrids and electrics to give manufacturers enough room in their CAFE standing to offset the poor fuel economy of their pickups and SUV. These fuel economy and emissions regulations are law.

I appreciate your informed view and I agree that electric and gas-electric models are the future of transportation. I also agree that those who do not wish to buy one should simply not buy one.

The problem I have with the Volt is that I don't want to buy one but as a taxpayer I have been forced to buy one - and I don't even get to drive it.

 

[martinjlm]

Chickenwing says:
"

I don't think so:
"Mulally's comments weren't offered as a criticism of Romney. Rather, he was defending Ford's decision to go to Congress with GM and Chrysler in 2008 to call for a federal rescue."
Ford's CEO has no regrets about call for bailout - Los Angeles Times

That would be the chairman of ford making your statement look rather lame.

lame?? You mean Ford shareholders actually like competition that limits their income???? Do most companies want to see their competition thrive or go bankrupt?

Why do you try to think at all??

To be fair, I do remember the CEO of Ford stating that a GM liquidation (not bankruptcy and restructuring, a full liquidation) would hurt them greatly because their many shared suppliers would also fold.

But Ford did run an ad campaign touting their ability to compete without bailouts.

Which can only prove that he couldn't possibly know as much as people on this thread, because he does, after all, have his company producing Electric Vehicles (Ford Focus EV) and Hybrid Vehicles (Fusion and C-Max) and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles (Fusion and C-Max). Doesn't he know they are too expensive to produce and nobody will buy them? <-----sarcasm, folks

Ford did run "we didn't take no stinkin' bailout commercials, but pulled them after even they realized it was sort of a cheap shot.

 

[martinjlm]

It's really sad when Americans cheer for the failure of one of it's own companies and all because of the complete control their ideology has over them. And these same people claim to love their country. Liars.

On another note: Toyota hybrids: Carmaker to expand range of models Toyota hybrids: Carmaker to expand range of models | Indianapolis Star | indystar.com

So there is market for hybrids. GM just has to figure out how to capture their segment of the market and how to convince the domestic haters of America to buy their cars.

That's a very telling comment. You don't see the problem being a substandard product that's too expensive, you see the problem as one of "convincing" people to buy. That's why left leaning command economics fails. They deal in messaging instead of market, convincing instead of offering.

The Volt is too expensive and 35 miles is too short. In the real world, the Chevy Cruze is a more eco-friendly car at half the cost.

Link

For some people that might work, but for others not so much. Most people don't buy a car based on one single attribute, in your example fuel economy. If people did only buy based on fuel economy for a given size vehicle, then the Cadillac ATS is dead in the water. In size it is somewhere between a Cruze and a Malibu and starts at around $33,000, going up to mid 40s. And it doesn't get the fuel economy of a Cruze or Malibu. But the thing is people also buy this car for the styling, the technology content, and the driving performance.

Back to Volt....Styling compared to Cruze? Some would give the edge to Cruze, but I think most would prefer Volt. Technology content compared to Cruze? And I won't even count the drive system. Both have full capability onscreen Nav with the ability to program directions from your cell phone. Included in Volt, extra cost in Cruze. Volt also has standard front and rear collision alert, rear camera, Sirius XM Radio with option of a 40 gig HD so that you can load your own music or use it to "pause" live radio. Some of this stuff is available in Cruze, but at additional price. Also Volt is a hatchback, so the cargo space is much more usable. I've carried an upright bass in the Volt. Can't do that in a Cruze or a Malibu.

When we decided on Volt, we did not consider Cruze. Doesn't meet our needs. We consider Malibu and Equinox. Our lease price on either of those would have been $80 - $100 less than the lease price on the Volt. Savings has actually been significantly more. But we knew we'd easily save that much in fuel per month and the Volt cargo space is more useable than Malibu cargo space.

That is how car buyers think. Total package, not one attribute or feature. And for what it's worth, the Volt gets better highway fuel economy than any Cruze EXCEPT Eco. And the city fuel economy can be infinite.

 

[asterism]

lame?? You mean Ford shareholders actually like competition that limits their income???? Do most companies want to see their competition thrive or go bankrupt?

Why do you try to think at all??

To be fair, I do remember the CEO of Ford stating that a GM liquidation (not bankruptcy and restructuring, a full liquidation) would hurt them greatly because their many shared suppliers would also fold.

But Ford did run an ad campaign touting their ability to compete without bailouts.

Which can only prove that he couldn't possibly know as much as people on this thread, because he does, after all, have his company producing Electric Vehicles (Ford Focus EV) and Hybrid Vehicles (Fusion and C-Max) and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles (Fusion and C-Max). Doesn't he know they are too expensive to produce and nobody will buy them? <-----sarcasm, folks

Ford did run "we didn't take no stinkin' bailout commercials, but pulled them after even they realized it was sort of a cheap shot.

Ford pulled the ads because of political pressure, not the "cheap shot" bullshit.