In defense of flogging

[Quantum Windbag]

The prisons are humane enough. It's the residents who aren't.

Prisons aren't and have never been about rehabilitation. They're about punishment, and protecting society from people who do harm to others. And they certainly aren't supposed to be a sought-after destination, that's ridiculous.

The prisons are humane? I served in the Navy aboard a tin can and we had more room than this.

I was on a sub and had far less.

Besides, if prison wasn't humane, people would put more effort into avoiding it.

Submariners are crazy. Why go out in a boat that is designed to sink?

 

[Zona]

Give China America's Hispanic and black population, and watch the changes

This is pretty hard to respond to without getting banned, so I will just say fuck you.

 

[editec]

Not that any of the above worked very well in the past, and not that prisons rehabilitate now, either.

I think that some of those things would work very well nowadays. Especially in our society.

Basically if you want MOST people not to do crimes, in most cases we'd have to give those people something to LOSE other than just their freedom.

The biggest thing they would lose in some of those situations is their "good name". You walk in to apply for a job.... "Gee, weren't you in the pillory out in front of city hall last week? Sorry, the job has been filled." "Gee, you seem like a real nice gal except for that adulteress' "A" branded on your neck."

Now, of course, there is a class of person who will be a criminal regardless of what they have to lose. There is NOTHING that can be done about that class of criminal.

Very true. The only thing to do in those cases is what you do with mad dogs.... put them down for the betterment of society.

But for most people who end up doing crime, they really had so little lose and so much to gain by doing crimes, that for them the choice was obvious.

That's why we need to create a system where the penalties for doing the crime are worse than the rewards.

Its hard to imagine a punhishment that is worse than grinding poverty.

But even if you can find one, people don't really think past their present needs, especially when the future punishment might never happen, if they don't get caught.

Back when stealing a loaf of bread often resulted in branding, being banished, or flogging people STILL committed crimes.

People with hopes of some better future, even if they have nothing, are less likely to do crimes than people who feel hopeless and trapped.

Punishment doesn't not really deter people from doing crime but HOPE does.

 

[wolf_22]

yeah that 8th amendment - how fucking annoying.

we have overcorwding b./c of the drug war and those mandatory sentences. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that each crime is different and supposing everyone belongs in jail for the same time is stupidwe also have a bigger issue - no rehabilitation or crime prevention. prisons do little, but at least offer some. beating someone doesn't reform them. it reinforces violence as being acceptable.
and does little to address why the crime happened in the first place both to stop the person from reoffended later and to prevent other crime

And it does not take a genius to figure out that some judges are activist, nuts or fucking idiots in their sentencing. There should not be situations where punishments for similar crimes have no connection at all.
3 counts molestation and 3 counts child rape: 6 months
Local News | 6-month sentence for child molester | Seattle Times Newspaper
2 counts of molestation: life in prison
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOY5e270fl8]YouTube - ‪Criminal Judge Sentences Child Molester‬‏[/ame]

Sentences need good guidelines. While hardline minimums have consequences so do willy nilly sentencing by judges. We need something in the middle. Maybe hard minimums that can be changed for particular circumstances.

you're right. sometimes we get judges who let people off for serious crimes.
and sadly sexual assult rarely gets treated as it should be - usually we're a bit better when the victim is a child (but not always)

we do have guidlines but sadly when a judge can ignore the guideline they can give an unjust sentence.
I don't know how to fix an issue like that. too many varibles.

~ ~ ~
as far as crowding goes, nonviolent criminals can be released. paroled. sent to rehab. sent home.
we'd cut a lot of of population down

 

[FA_Q2]

hmm

The lash over 5 years? fyi; They are asking the generation that's never been spanked and thinks S&M is fun sex play.

Getting hit with a lash rips the skin open, and then there's 9 more coming. That form of punishment wouldn't last a year as repeaters would chose jail and the word would get out to just how painful it is.

The china comparison is shit. People tend to end up dead instead of in jail.

Sure they would. Temporary pain, no matter how bad, is temporary. I would chose it 100 percent of the time.

 

[Sallow]

This guy makes some really good points. I wonder how many people here will totally miss the point.

Suggest adding the whipping post to America’s system of criminal justice and most people recoil in horror. But offer a choice between five years in prison or 10 lashes and almost everybody picks the lash. What does that say about prison? America has a prison problem. Never in the history of the world has a country locked up so many of its people. We have more prisons than China, and it has a billion more people than we do. Forty years ago America had 338,000 people behind bars. Today 2.3 million are incarcerated. We have more prisoners than soldiers. Something has gone terribly wrong.
The problem — mostly due to longer and mandatory sentences combined with an idiotic war on drugs — is so abysmal that the Supreme Court recently ordered 33,000 prisoners in California to be housed elsewhere or released. If California could simply return to its 1970 level of incarceration, the savings from its $9 billion prison budget would cut the state’s budget deficit in half. But doing so would require the release of 125,000 inmates, and not even the most progressive reformer has a plan to reduce the prison population by 85 percent.
I do: Bring back the lash. Give convicts the choice of flogging in lieu of incarceration.

In lieu of prison, bring back the lash - The Washington Post


Anyone that is serious about reforming the prison system should read his book.


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465021484?ie=UTF8&tag=slatmaga-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0465021484]Amazon.com: In Defense of Flogging (9780465021482): Peter Moskos: Books[/ame]

Nutty solution.

I'd rather bring back education to the prisons.

That's what really works.

 

[FA_Q2]

Not that any of the above worked very well in the past, and not that prisons rehabilitate now, either.

I think that some of those things would work very well nowadays. Especially in our society.



The biggest thing they would lose in some of those situations is their "good name". You walk in to apply for a job.... "Gee, weren't you in the pillory out in front of city hall last week? Sorry, the job has been filled." "Gee, you seem like a real nice gal except for that adulteress' "A" branded on your neck."



Very true. The only thing to do in those cases is what you do with mad dogs.... put them down for the betterment of society.

But for most people who end up doing crime, they really had so little lose and so much to gain by doing crimes, that for them the choice was obvious.

That's why we need to create a system where the penalties for doing the crime are worse than the rewards.

Its hard to imagine a punhishment that is worse than grinding poverty.

But even if you can find one, people don't really think past their present needs, especially when the future punishment might never happen, if they don't get caught.

Back when stealing a loaf of bread often resulted in branding, being banished, or flogging people STILL committed crimes.

People with hopes of some better future, even if they have nothing, are less likely to do crimes than people who feel hopeless and trapped.

Punishment doesn't not really deter people from doing crime but HOPE does.

Prison is far worse than grinding poverty. Poverty in this nation is a joke. Your point to hope is spot on though and one of the problems with crime and prison. The legal system tends to create career criminals not reform them. I cannot see a good solution to this though so what can you do but support the current system. It provides enough deterrent that most never become criminals.

 

[Two Thumbs]

The prisons are humane? I served in the Navy aboard a tin can and we had more room than this.

I was on a sub and had far less.

Besides, if prison wasn't humane, people would put more effort into avoiding it.

Submariners are crazy. Why go out in a boat that is designed to sink?

The craziest part is when we take a perfectly good sub and surface it.

What kind of nut wants to be on a floating target?


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[Sallow]

hmm

The lash over 5 years? fyi; They are asking the generation that's never been spanked and thinks S&M is fun sex play.

Getting hit with a lash rips the skin open, and then there's 9 more coming. That form of punishment wouldn't last a year as repeaters would chose jail and the word would get out to just how painful it is.

The china comparison is shit. People tend to end up dead instead of in jail.

No they don't.

Proportionally the (Ratio executions to population) Chinese probably execute as often as the United States.

 

[Two Thumbs]

This guy makes some really good points. I wonder how many people here will totally miss the point.

Suggest adding the whipping post to America’s system of criminal justice and most people recoil in horror. But offer a choice between five years in prison or 10 lashes and almost everybody picks the lash. What does that say about prison? America has a prison problem. Never in the history of the world has a country locked up so many of its people. We have more prisons than China, and it has a billion more people than we do. Forty years ago America had 338,000 people behind bars. Today 2.3 million are incarcerated. We have more prisoners than soldiers. Something has gone terribly wrong.
The problem — mostly due to longer and mandatory sentences combined with an idiotic war on drugs — is so abysmal that the Supreme Court recently ordered 33,000 prisoners in California to be housed elsewhere or released. If California could simply return to its 1970 level of incarceration, the savings from its $9 billion prison budget would cut the state’s budget deficit in half. But doing so would require the release of 125,000 inmates, and not even the most progressive reformer has a plan to reduce the prison population by 85 percent.
I do: Bring back the lash. Give convicts the choice of flogging in lieu of incarceration.

In lieu of prison, bring back the lash - The Washington Post


Anyone that is serious about reforming the prison system should read his book.


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465021484?ie=UTF8&tag=slatmaga-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0465021484]Amazon.com: In Defense of Flogging (9780465021482): Peter Moskos: Books[/ame]

Nutty solution.

I'd rather bring back education to the prisons.

That's what really works.

There's plenty of that. The challenge is getting them to go.

Out of a pod of ~ 160, only one was a student.

 

[Two Thumbs]

hmm

The lash over 5 years? fyi; They are asking the generation that's never been spanked and thinks S&M is fun sex play.

Getting hit with a lash rips the skin open, and then there's 9 more coming. That form of punishment wouldn't last a year as repeaters would chose jail and the word would get out to just how painful it is.

The china comparison is shit. People tend to end up dead instead of in jail.

No they don't.

Proportionally the (Ratio executions to population) Chinese probably execute as often as the United States.

uhm

Wasn't it China that lined the streets with coffins then filled them with drug users and sellers?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I was on a sub and had far less.

Besides, if prison wasn't humane, people would put more effort into avoiding it.

Submariners are crazy. Why go out in a boat that is designed to sink?

The craziest part is when we take a perfectly good sub and surface it.

What kind of nut wants to be on a floating target?


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There is that.

I still prefer to be on top of the water though. It is a lot easier to shoot at the planes, and, if you get hit, you have a better chance of living through it.

 

[Sallow]

hmm

The lash over 5 years? fyi; They are asking the generation that's never been spanked and thinks S&M is fun sex play.

Getting hit with a lash rips the skin open, and then there's 9 more coming. That form of punishment wouldn't last a year as repeaters would chose jail and the word would get out to just how painful it is.

The china comparison is shit. People tend to end up dead instead of in jail.

No they don't.

Proportionally the (Ratio executions to population) Chinese probably execute as often as the United States.

uhm

Wasn't it China that lined the streets with coffins then filled them with drug users and sellers?

Humantarians..they aren't.



I've been there several times, however. For the most part..they are like any other big industrial power. You'd probably feel right at home in Shanghai. Maybe not so much in the more rural areas.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Submariners are crazy. Why go out in a boat that is designed to sink?

The craziest part is when we take a perfectly good sub and surface it.

What kind of nut wants to be on a floating target?


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Microsoft Internet Explorer
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You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.
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There is that.

I still prefer to be on top of the water though. It is a lot easier to shoot at the planes, and, if you get hit, you have a better chance of living through it.

And getting eaten by sharks.

You do know sharks still follow ships around, right?

 

[Two Thumbs]

No they don't.

Proportionally the (Ratio executions to population) Chinese probably execute as often as the United States.

uhm

Wasn't it China that lined the streets with coffins then filled them with drug users and sellers?

Humantarians..they aren't.



I've been there several times, however. For the most part..they are like any other big industrial power. You'd probably feel right at home in Shanghai. Maybe not so much in the more rural areas.

Actually, being a country kid, I think I wouldn't see much change in the small towns.

considering everywhere I've been, the only difference between small town folk is the accent and the food they eat.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The craziest part is when we take a perfectly good sub and surface it.

What kind of nut wants to be on a floating target?


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You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.
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There is that.

I still prefer to be on top of the water though. It is a lot easier to shoot at the planes, and, if you get hit, you have a better chance of living through it.

And getting eaten by sharks.

You do know sharks still follow ships around, right?

Yep, they eat the trash. They probably follow subs around too, unless you guys keep your trash until you get back in port.

 

[Two Thumbs]

There is that.

I still prefer to be on top of the water though. It is a lot easier to shoot at the planes, and, if you get hit, you have a better chance of living through it.

And getting eaten by sharks.

You do know sharks still follow ships around, right?

Yep, they eat the trash. They probably follow subs around too, unless you guys keep your trash until you get back in port.

Considering the depths we worked at, few things followed us.

We had a TDU system to flush cans of trash. But when we were at a special station we would have to freeze it.

yeah, that sucks just a little more than you can imagine

 

[Quantum Windbag]

And getting eaten by sharks.

You do know sharks still follow ships around, right?

Yep, they eat the trash. They probably follow subs around too, unless you guys keep your trash until you get back in port.

Considering the depths we worked at, few things followed us.

We had a TDU system to flush cans of trash. But when we were at a special station we would have to freeze it.

yeah, that sucks just a little more than you can imagine

I can imagine pretty good. It could be worse though.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1N6QfuIh0g]YouTube - ‪Solution to the Global Food Crisis - Let them eat TURD BURGERS!?‬‏[/ame]

 

[George Costanza]

This guy makes some really good points. I wonder how many people here will totally miss the point.

Suggest adding the whipping post to America’s system of criminal justice and most people recoil in horror. But offer a choice between five years in prison or 10 lashes and almost everybody picks the lash. What does that say about prison? America has a prison problem. Never in the history of the world has a country locked up so many of its people. We have more prisons than China, and it has a billion more people than we do. Forty years ago America had 338,000 people behind bars. Today 2.3 million are incarcerated. We have more prisoners than soldiers. Something has gone terribly wrong.
The problem — mostly due to longer and mandatory sentences combined with an idiotic war on drugs — is so abysmal that the Supreme Court recently ordered 33,000 prisoners in California to be housed elsewhere or released. If California could simply return to its 1970 level of incarceration, the savings from its $9 billion prison budget would cut the state’s budget deficit in half. But doing so would require the release of 125,000 inmates, and not even the most progressive reformer has a plan to reduce the prison population by 85 percent.
I do: Bring back the lash. Give convicts the choice of flogging in lieu of incarceration.

In lieu of prison, bring back the lash - The Washington Post


Anyone that is serious about reforming the prison system should read his book.


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465021484?ie=UTF8&tag=slatmaga-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0465021484]Amazon.com: In Defense of Flogging (9780465021482): Peter Moskos: Books[/ame]

Put me down for missing the point. Is it that this is a good way to clear up the overcrowded prison population and save the taxpayers a lot of money? If that's it, I am not on board. Putting people in prison instead of publically humiliating them, flogging them, drawing and quartering them, etc., is the price we pay for calling ourselves a civilized society. Given the options, I'll take civilized any time.

Another thing - 5 years in prison v. 10 lashes? Hmmm . . . How about 6 months in jail v. 10 lashes? 3 months? And, by the way, 10 lashes, properly administered with the right equipment, can put a person in the hospital, I would think.

I call pretty much bullshit on this entire thread. Sorry QW.

 

[George Costanza]

One other thought - anyone who has any doubts about the authoritarian aspects of today's conservatism, need only read a few of the posts on this thread by some of our conservative friends. Nuff said.