Immigration? Mexico and Latin Countrys want to talk?

[manu1959]

I wonder who sold the bags of shit and piss - that would have been a potential gold mine of profit!!!

they bring the bags with them then fill them in the stands during the match.....

But surely once they threw their own bags they desired more?

And there lies the potential for a bag of shit n piss industry!!!

all i can say.....

 

[José]

Originally posted by manu1959
a critic with no solutions....shocking i tell you....shocking....

The answer to your question is obvious to the point of being silly and has been regurgitated here at least a gazillion times. That's why I didn't even bother to give a direct answer.

Raids, fines, electronic surveillance, blah, blah, blah...

But if you ask this question you're clearly missing the entire crux of the immigration issue.

The US government knows exactly what to do to reduce the flow of illegal immigrants to a trickle but this knowledge is useless since it doesn't have the POLITICAL WILL to implement anything.

And why doesn't the US government have the political will to enforce the US immigration laws?

Because it is not SUFFICIENTLY pressured by the american people.

Because the members of the US Message Board are FAR MORE interested in "fighting" illegal immigration on the Internet than in front of the White House.

 

[LaLinda75]

Mexico is the adopted child of the USA. It will never let it 'roam free'.

 

[Derek_Plumber]

Living in Albuquerque, New Mexico our politics are complex on illegal immigration. Views do not follow the major political parties. Albuquerque is 300 years old, older than the U. S. Government. We Anglos are viewed as newcomers.

Immigration from Mexico is not a popular topic. Some view the entire southwest and Mexico as one region, and the border is an incumbrance. Others will tolerate or even help illegals, or "migrants" as television news calls them. People from all ethnic backgrounds believe things have gone too far. The New Mexico Driver's Lincense is as easy to get as a postage stamp. Even State forms have sections for illegals to fill out to apply for assistance!

This is a bad situation, and it is going to get worse. According to Wikipedia, "World population has grown from 1.6 billion in 1900 to an estimated 6.7 billion today. In Mexico alone, population has grown from 13.6 million in 1900 to 107 million in 2007." And, who do you suppose it is that is encouraging all these poor to reproduce with such vigor?

 

[morpheus]

How can you talk economy or anything with failed nations or a failed government.

I am not college educated so maybe I can not speak in terms you understand.

None the less, facts are facts, there are many nations we appease, mexico being one.

No these are not facts. These are your misconceptions based on very limited knowledge about Mexico and US-Mexican relations.

So, let's dismantle all the "facts" and misconceptions in this thread, one by one:
click on underlined text for citations

When over 32,000,000 refugees must flee to the safety of the USA than that nation has failed.

I'm curious how you came up with that bloated figure.

The estimated number of Mexican-born immigrants (both legal and illegal combined) residing in the United States in the year 2008 was just over 12 million, equivalent to less than 4% of the total estimated resident population of the United States for that year (305 million), and equivalent to less than 6% of Mexico's population of about 124 million. The estimated number of illegal immigrants (of all nationalities) living in the United States in 2008 was 11 million (a drop from 12.5 million in 2007, meaning that over a million illegal immigrants went back home), of which roughly half (57%) were Mexican nationals, placing the number of Mexicans living illegally in the United States at about 6 million in 2008.

Secondly, the vast majority of Mexican immigrants are economic migrants, not refugees.

This is a bad situation, and it is going to get worse. According to Wikipedia, "World population has grown from 1.6 billion in 1900 to an estimated 6.7 billion today. In Mexico alone, population has grown from 13.6 million in 1900 to 107 million in 2007." And, who do you suppose it is that is encouraging all these poor to reproduce with such vigor? [/FONT][/SIZE]

Virtually every country's population skyrocketed during the 20th century, as a result of industrialization, improved living standards, medical advances, and agricultural advances and the wider availability of food unprecendented in human history. The United States in 1950 -long after the most recent influx of European immigrants had ended (mid-1920s)- had a population of about 152 million. Despite very little immigration into the United States for most of the remainder of the 20th century, the US population had doubled from 152 million in 1950 to 300 million in the mid-2000s. The population of the Netherlands grew drastically during the 20th century from under 6 million in 1907 to 17 million today. Japan's population which stood at 42 million in 1907 now stands at around 125 million. And Spain's population nearly doubled from just under 20 million in 1907 to just under 40 million today. Britain's population in 1907 (without the empire, and without the island of Ireland) was around 40 million, but had reached 60 million by the end of the century.

While the entire world experienced a massive population growth during the 20th century, a new global trend has emerged in the 21st: declining birth rates. This was first noted in Europe and East Asia in the 1990s, and now Latin America is starting to follow suit. Mexico's birth rate has been steadily declining in recent years from 3.3 children per woman in 1990 to 2.1 children per woman in 2005, which means that Mexico now has the same birth rate as the United States. 2.1 is the rate at which populations remain stable (they neither grow, nor shrink). The only population growth that Mexico will experience in the next few decades will be from current generations living longer than their parents, while simultaneously new residents are born. Thus, the population will grow more and more slowly for the next few decades, and will reach equilibrium before the middle of the 21st century, assuming that the birth rate doesn't continue to decline to below 2.1 children per woman.

Mexico never had a right to Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, or California. If you agree, than why the anger.

This is false. While I certainly do not endorse changing any international borders today, these areas were indeed once part of the Mexican state. When Mexico gained its independence from the Spanish Empire, its sovereign territory included not only present-day Mexico, but also the present-day US states of Texas, California, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah. However, over time, Americans invaded and settled in these areas while they were still part of Mexico, and -through wars- the United States annexed these lands.

What about the convoluted way of many in Mexico blaming the USA for weapons entering their country from here? If they won't help the USA by keeping their people from entering our country illegally, why should the USA help them with the illegal weapons entering their country?

Because that would contradict America's policy of criticizing communist states who did not allow their citizens to leave and/or emigrate. And indeed, even today, the United States considers this a restriction on free movement. Citizens should be allowed to leave their country whenever they please, but nation-states have the right to regulate who comes in. This is the conventional practice in the international arena, and Mexico is not at fault for abiding by international norms and American expectations in this regard.

The United States, on the other hand, is obligated, by these same international norms that it expects from other countries, to crack down on money laundering and guns ending up in the hands of the wrong people. There is no denying that political corruption in Mexico exacerbates social and economic problems, but the United States needs to step up and take its fair share of the blame. After all, America's insatiable demand for cocaine doesn't exactly help to alleviate transborder problems.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Except of course for that ohh so small problem that the mexican gangs are NOT getting ak-47's from the United States. For one ours are semi automatic not fully automatic, for another ours are mostly cheap Chinese knockoffs that are not worth 50 bucks, they can not hit shit. The Mexican Gangs are getting their weapons from world players with fully automatic stockpiles to provide already working weapons.

The Mexican Government will NOT provide serial numbers for its recent claims and when they do it is discovered less than 15 percent of all illegal weapons entering mexico are American.

As for land, TEXAS was a free and Independent Country when it joined the US. And MEXICO not the US started the Mexican American War. We BOUGHT California, Utah, Nevada , New Mexico and Arizona when we could have just kept them for FREE. You see in the 1800's when one kicked the shit out of another Country it was COMMON practice to take land one wanted.

Ohh and that was ONE war there were no other wars with Mexico. And again THEY attacked us.

And estimates are that up to 20 MILLION illegal Mexicans are or were in this Country, the low estimate being 10 MILLION, not 6. 10 million is 10 percent of the Mexican population and 20 million is 20 Percent.

Lets talk about freedom of movement and illegals. Mexico has a vastly stricter policy on their southern border in regards illegals then we have ever even THOUGHT of doing. And yet they demand we allow free passage of their illegals into our Country.

If it is good for them, must be good for us, I say we duplicate Mexico's policy on illegals and immigrants in general. You know non citizens can not buy land or own business in Mexico, they have to have a Mexican partner. Lets do to them what they do to us? Or would that be unfair somehow?

 

[morpheus]

The Mexican Government will NOT provide serial numbers for its recent claims and when they do it is discovered less than 15 percent of all illegal weapons entering mexico are American.

This is a self-contradicting statement. They do or they don't provide this information?

As for land, TEXAS was a free and Independent Country when it joined the US.

When Texas was Mexican territory, it was invaded by American immigrants, who then revolted against the Mexican state. They achieved little international recognition as an independent state for a brief period of time, when they decided to join Texas with the motherland (the USA).

And MEXICO not the US started the Mexican American War.

After being provoked by the US. The United States went ahead and annexed Texas, against warnings from Mexico who did not recognize Texan independence. Mexico had a casus belli, and America knew this. And indeed, many Americans were opposed to the war.

And estimates are that up to 20 MILLION illegal Mexicans are or were in this Country, the low estimate being 10 MILLION, not 6

Can you cite this figure?

I think you're confusing the number of Mexican nationals living in the United States illegally, with the total number of persons of Mexican origin living in the United States, a number which includes not only immigrants (both legal and illegal), but also American-born children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren of Mexican immigrants (including persons who do not have direct Mexican ancestry), as well as persons who trace their ancestry in Texas and California all the way back to the 19th century, but who identify themselves as Mexican. This figure is only half the number of persons of German origin living in the United States.

The widely accepted figure of illegal immigrants (of all nationalities) in American public discourse has hovered around 10 million, and this figure is confirmed by the research studies I cited in my previous post.

10 million is 10 percent of the Mexican population and 20 million is 20 Percent.

The population of Mexico is around 110 million. You are understating Mexico's population, but I also overestimated it in my previous post (120 million).

Lets talk about freedom of movement and illegals. Mexico has a vastly stricter policy on their southern border in regards illegals then we have ever even THOUGHT of doing. And yet they demand we allow free passage of their illegals into our Country.

Again, Mexico is following international protocol. Its own citizens are allowed to leave whenever they wish, but the country exercizes the right to regulate who comes in. Again, had the United States expected Mexico to forcefully prevent its own people from leaving the country, it would contradict US policy of criticizing communist states who did the same during the Cold War.

It is true, however, that Mexican border officials are far "stricter" on their southern border than the US is on its southern border, and indeed there's many human rights violations going on along the Mexico-Guatemala border. But the US hushes up about this, because many people who cross that border are destined for the United States. On the other hand, Mexico does have a long history of providing political asylum to persons fleeing wars and dictatorships in the rest of Latin America as well as Europe.

If it is good for them, must be good for us, I say we duplicate Mexico's policy on illegals and immigrants in general. You know non citizens can not buy land or own business in Mexico, they have to have a Mexican partner...

This is partly true. Foreigners are able to own property in Mexico, except for some designated restricted zones, such as many coastal areas. And even in these restricted zones, there are ways around it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The Mexican and originally American settlers of Texas AGREED that once the Mexican Republican was overthrown by a petty Dictator and the Constitution thrown out they no longer needed to be loyal to a place that was NOT the Country they all faithfully were a part of.

Unless of course you can provide evidence of revolt prior to Santa Ana Seizing power. And notice the MEXICANS in Texas AGREED with the Americans.

10 years is not a minuscule amount of time. Texas was a free Republic from 1836 to 1846.

 

[José]

Originally posted by RetiredGySgt

The Mexican and originally American settlers of Texas AGREED that once the Mexican Republican was overthrown by a petty Dictator and the Constitution thrown out they no longer needed to be loyal to a place that was NOT the Country they all faithfully were a part of.

Unless of course you can provide evidence of revolt prior to Santa Ana Seizing power. And notice the MEXICANS in Texas AGREED with the Americans.

10 years is not a minuscule amount of time. Texas was a free Republic from 1836 to 1846.

FIRST OF ALL:

1 - The mexican Constitution did not provide any legal way for mexican states to secede the Union. Under no cirscumstances a political sub unit of the mexican state had the right to declare independence.

SECONDLY:

2 - Tejanos and Californios had NO VALID CLAIM to independence because they shared the same national identity as the rest of the country.

For those of you too dumb to understand what "sharing the same national identity" means:

It means that Tejanos and Californios thought of themselves primarily as Mexicans not as Tejanos and Californios just like mexicans in Jalisco, Veracruz etc...

And I won't allow RetiredGySgt to rape mexican history:

Tejanos joined the anglo land grab but Californios put up a formidable, heroic resistence against the thieves from the North.

Again, regardless of what Tejanos and Californios thought about the anglo land grab they had no valid claim to secede from Mexico BECAUSE THEY WERE MEXICANS in the first place.

THIRDLY (and most important):

3 - American born naturalised citizens, LIVING IN MEXICO FOR 13 YEARS, had no right to secede from their new country because Mexico's northern provinces were not THEIR HISTORICAL HOMELAND.

The only "right" the anglo settlers had was the right to pack up and go back TO THEIR REAL HISTORICAL HOMELAND, the US of A, if they didn't want to live under mexican rule.

 

[José]

And one more thing:

Mexico allowed a small number of anglo settlers in Mexico's northern provinces after the usual naturalisation process.

From 1830 (if my memory doesn't fail me) when Anastacio Bustamante outlawed american immigration to 1836, as morpheus rightly pointed out in his outstanding, high quality posts, Mexico was flooded by thousands of illegal american immigrants.

THEY "JUMPED" THE US/MEXICAN BORDER.

THEY WERE ILLEGAL AMERICANS.

THOSE AMERICANS ENTERED MEXICO AND STOLE HALF THE COUNTRY USING THE SAME METHOD YOU, SUPER PATRIOTIC AMERICAN CLOWN, CRITICIZE MEXICANS FOR DOING NOW.

 

[WillowTree]

And one more thing:

Mexico allowed a small number of anglo settlers in Mexico's northern provinces after the usual naturalisation process.

From 1830 (if my memory doesn't fail me) when Anastacio Bustamante outlawed american immigration to 1836, as morpheus rightly pointed out in his outstanding, high quality posts, Mexico was flooded by hundreds of thousands of illegal american immigrants.

THEY "JUMPED" THE US/MEXICAN BORDER.

THEY WERE ILLEGAL AMERICANS.

THOSE AMERICANS ENTERED MEXICO AND STOLE HALF THE COUNTRY USING THE SAME METHOD YOU, SUPER PATRIOTIC AMERICAN CLOWN, CRITICIZE MEXICANS FOR DOING NOW.

I think you may be having a burrito meltdown.












[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbWWNrbEano&feature=PlayList&p=C5625BD6F8E4030E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=6]YouTube - Cinco the Donkey[/ame]

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Why using his Logic we should all petition to have Great Britain returned as our Home Country. I mean, after all, there was no process to leave the British Union in the 1700's.

 

[LaLinda75]

And.....the BEST men won! Long may her flag wave!

How about returning the Louisiana Purchase to France?

And the British Colonies to England.

Oh yes, and let's have Central and So America return their lands to Spain.

 

[LaLinda75]

THOSE AMERICANS ENTERED MEXICO AND STOLE HALF THE COUNTRY USING THE SAME METHOD YOU, SUPER PATRIOTIC AMERICAN CLOWN, CRITICIZE MEXICANS FOR DOING NOW.'

Hello? That was then, now is NOW! Get over it. The USA just as Mexico is a Sovereign Nation. Give it a rest. It seems it's ALWAYS okay to be a patriotic Mexican or a patriotic this or other - but don't anybody DARE be a PATRIOTIC AMERICAN. The boogie man will get you. BOO!

 

[morpheus]

THOSE AMERICANS ENTERED MEXICO AND STOLE HALF THE COUNTRY USING THE SAME METHOD YOU, SUPER PATRIOTIC AMERICAN CLOWN, CRITICIZE MEXICANS FOR DOING NOW.'

Hello? That was then, now is NOW! Get over it. The USA just as Mexico is a Sovereign Nation. Give it a rest. It seems it's ALWAYS okay to be a patriotic Mexican or a patriotic this or other - but don't anybody DARE be a PATRIOTIC AMERICAN. The boogie man will get you. BOO!

I suppose it's perfectly okay to say things like "all Mexicans have a low IQ" ? There's a difference between being patriotic and being outright bigotted.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

THOSE AMERICANS ENTERED MEXICO AND STOLE HALF THE COUNTRY USING THE SAME METHOD YOU, SUPER PATRIOTIC AMERICAN CLOWN, CRITICIZE MEXICANS FOR DOING NOW.'

Hello? That was then, now is NOW! Get over it. The USA just as Mexico is a Sovereign Nation. Give it a rest. It seems it's ALWAYS okay to be a patriotic Mexican or a patriotic this or other - but don't anybody DARE be a PATRIOTIC AMERICAN. The boogie man will get you. BOO!

I suppose it's perfectly okay to say things like "all Mexicans have a low IQ" ? There's a difference between being patriotic and being outright bigotted.

Ask Shogun, he is the board anti Mexican. Well we do have a couple White Supremacist as well but they spend most of their time demanding a WHITE'S only Country.

What I learned was that the Opinion of Europe was that the US would be soundly defeated by the European style Mexican Army. My school day history was pretty bad, I had to learn on my own the only reason the Mexican Army probably did so poorly was because they had to powerful a powder charge for their muzzle loading rifles and they were blowing up in their faces.

Anyone that claims Mexicans are not brave or valorous knows little about them.

Hell the Alamo saw several thousand shot down yet they never wavered and carried the assault after a couple tries. Pretty damn brave to me. The assault on Chapultepec was another bloody affair.

 

[Agnapostate]

What a load of horse shit. These countries have worse laws then even the most5 draconian US policy. Mexico is by far the worst of the lot and they want to question us on Immigration policy?

Obama seeks new relationship with Latin America

It's not an impressive tactic to ascribe the deeds of a state elite to a labor class. The Zapatista uprising and continued activity in Chiapas should certainly indicate the divergences between such a state elite (formerly led by a white man such as Vicente Fox), and the ranks of such a labor class, typically populated by mestizos and the indigenous. The opposition of so many to the trade liberalization that has augmented the international wage differentials which provoke immigration is certainly born out of a significant ideological divergence between the state elite and the labor class.

 

[brewerboy]

I have to agree with KrotchDog on this, though I dont have half of the "Mexican experience" (my words) as he does.

I've never met a more caring people than Mexicans/Hispanics.

When I took a fall from grace almost 5 years ago, it was a Mexican family I was friends with who helped me back on my feet, no matter what it took.

Besides members of my own family, the first call I would make would be to a Mexican if I needed anything.

I was HONORED when a bunch of mexican friends presented me with a paper proclaiming me as an "Official Hispanic" (my family roots are Swedish and Norwegian, I have the Swedish flag on my chest) upon our graduation day.

When I moved 2,000 miles to a new school filled with hispanics and was seriously 1 of 2 white boys, everyone was curious and concerned as to how I was getting along in a place that was so strange to me.

It was hispanics that called my teacher father every day he was sick leading up to his death. Its Hispanics that cried just as hard as I did at his memorial service at the school. It was hispanics who erected a fruit-bearing tree in his memory.

If I was at a party that was 50/50 between white people and hispanic people, I would chill with the hispanics.

Overall, Hispanics are the most caring people I've ever come across, hands down. As a people, I'll back them til the day I die, except on ILLEGAL immigration.

 

[Agnapostate]

In accordance with the "activist" position, illegal immigrants aren't Hispanic. Illegal immigrants are Nican Tlaca.

 

[Tank]

Overall, Hispanics are the most caring people I've ever come across, hands down.

Is it OK to think one race is better then another?