Zone1 If we worship One God...

[Cougarbear]

And that's your picture of God...that is, besides an apparent belief that where you imagine God doing something one way--or fails in doing it--the LDS Church can go over His head and save the day.

You’re the one that said we are judged before we leaves this life as it comes to Eternal Life. Baptism is required for entrance to the Kingdom of God. Simple cognitive understanding would means tens of billions of people are doomed to hell. Yet, you try to deflect to something about the LDS church. Typical. What’s hilarious is that it isn’t just the Catholics that refuse to accept the words of Peter and Paul about teaching the spirits who have died and the baptism is still required and those baptism for the dead. Instead, Protestants ignore this and have changed the scriptures to damn the words of Christ and Christ through Peter and Paul. Why? Why ignore this teaching of whom they taught the saints during their lives on earth? Were they lies? That’s how you Catholics are acting. I haven’t seen any Protestants comment.

 

[Meriweather]

Fear not, it is written within our creed that we "Confess ONE Baptism, for the forgiveness of sins". Anyone can baptize you 1000 times and it will not change the fact that you already received the ONE true baptism when you became Christian (Catholic). (Whether as a child or an adult) - This essentially renders any other so called "baptisms" after the fact spiritually meaningless.

So true, thank you. It is not that I fear it, the thought of someone speaking for me ticks me off. Pure arrogance and not holy at all.

 

[Meriweather]

You’re

I'm not discussing this. The practice is a denigration of other faiths, free will, and God Himself. You ought to be ashamed. Period.

 

[Cougarbear]

I'm not discussing this. The practice is a denigration of other faiths, free will, and God Himself. You ought to be ashamed. Period.

No it hasn’t. The Catholic Church is no longer a missionary church. And, I see no free will when you aren’t allowed to read the very bible the RCC is said to have compiled. And, you aren’t allowed to comprehend simple verses either. You are the one who should be ashamed because you condemn those with truth in the doctrine. Why can’t you just be humble and admit the RCC changed the doctrine of the dead. And, that 10’s of billions of people will be damned because they weren’t baptized before dying according to the RCC teachings. By the way, the thief that Jesus said would be at some time in paradise never made it because of the RCC doctrine. Fortunately, it’s false doctrine.

 

[Meriweather]

No

I'm not discussing this. Nor did I read your post. The practice is a denigration of other faiths, free will, and God Himself. You ought to be ashamed. Period.

 

[Cougarbear]

I'm not discussing this. Nor did I read your post. The practice is a denigration of other faiths, free will, and God Himself. You ought to be ashamed. Period.

Of course you didn’t read. If you do, you will seek out our missionaries because you are basically a good person.

 

[Ace Nova]

You’re the one that said we are judged before we leaves this life as it comes to Eternal Life. Baptism is required for entrance to the Kingdom of God. Simple cognitive understanding would means tens of billions of people are doomed to hell. Yet, you try to deflect to something about the LDS church. Typical. What’s hilarious is that it isn’t just the Catholics that refuse to accept the words of Peter and Paul about teaching the spirits who have died and the baptism is still required and those baptism for the dead. Instead, Protestants ignore this and have changed the scriptures to damn the words of Christ and Christ through Peter and Paul. Why? Why ignore this teaching of whom they taught the saints during their lives on earth? Were they lies? That’s how you Catholics are acting. I haven’t seen any Protestants comment.

How so?

Catholics are Baptized by water the same way John the Baptist baptized Jesus. (For the forgiveness of sins and entrance into Christianity as a "new" being). Once a Catholic approaches an age of maturity, they are confirmed with the anointing of oil (Representing Fire) and they receive divine gifts from the Holy Spirit:

1. Wisdom,
2. Understanding,
3. Knowledge,
4. Fortitude or Courage,
5. Counsel,
6. Piety or Love, and
7. Fear of the Lord.

This is the completion of what Jesus spoke about in the Gospel of John.

John 16:13

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

In Mathew, John the Baptist references his baptism by water (forgiveness of sins) but states that one who is to come (Jesus) will baptize by the Holy Spirit and Fire.

Matthew 3:11-17

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The Baptism of Jesus​

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

When Jesus was baptized by John, it allowed for the "opening of heaven" and for God's Holy Spirit to descend unto Jesus (and humanity). It demonstrated a new, deeper understanding of God's ways. Jesus demonstrated piety by having John baptize him so that "all righteousness would be fulfilled". It was a way to demonstrate a new way of living, a new life for humanity of piety, peace and servitude. This act of piety is exactly what God had intended for humanity and why he stated that "“This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” God then allowed the gifts of the Holy Spirit to be given to mankind, through the teachings and ministry of his son, Jesus Christ.

Matthew 28:19

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

 

[Cougarbear]

How so?

Catholics are Baptized by water the same way John the Baptist baptized Jesus. (For the forgiveness of sins and entrance into Christianity as a "new" being). Once a Catholic approaches an age of maturity, they are confirmed with the anointing of oil (Representing Fire) and they receive divine gifts from the Holy Spirit:

1. Wisdom,
2. Understanding,
3. Knowledge,
4. Fortitude or Courage,
5. Counsel,
6. Piety or Love, and
7. Fear of the Lord.

This is the completion of what Jesus spoke about in the Gospel of John.

John 16:13

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

In Mathew, John the Baptist references his baptism by water (forgiveness of sins) but states that one who is to come (Jesus) will baptize by the Holy Spirit and Fire.

Matthew 3:11-17

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The Baptism of Jesus​

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

When Jesus was baptized by John, it allowed for the "opening of heaven" and for God's Holy Spirit to descend unto Jesus (and humanity). It demonstrated a new, deeper understanding of God's ways. Jesus demonstrated piety by having John baptize him so that "all righteousness would be fulfilled". It was a way to demonstrate a new way of living, a new life for humanity of piety, peace and servitude. This act of piety is exactly what God had intended for humanity and why he stated that "“This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” God then allowed the gifts of the Holy Spirit to be given to mankind, through the teachings and ministry of his son, Jesus Christ.

Matthew 28:19

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

We agree on that. We disagree on when and the purpose of baptism by water and how it is done. Baptism is for the remission of sins in which an infant cannot sin. And, “Baptizmo” means to immerse completely the entire body as being symbolic of death and reborn into a new life as you come up out of the waters of Judah (Isaiah). Do Catholics do this the way Jesus did?

Now, aside from those administrative differences and doctrine, this isn’t the topic in this thread. It’s about how the dead who did not have the opportunity in life to accept Jesus Christ and be baptized by water which is 100% necessary for living in the kingdom of God forever. Ding and others claimed the spirit of the dead person doesn’t exist in either paradise or hell (purgatory) awaiting their resurrection. That baptism must happen before one dies. So, l pointed out 3 scriptures that say the spirits of those who have died get to have the gospel preached and taught to them. So, out of the Bible that Catholics claim they put together, our spirits don’t die when our physical bodies die. Then, there’s the situation of the water baptism as well as the confirmation of the Holy Ghost. Jesus said “ONLY” by being baptized with water and of the spirit (Holy Ghost) can anyone enter into the Kingdom of God. This is why the early church when the apostles were still on earth with authority baptized those who were dead vicariously. Both water and Holy Ghost. This is in first Peter chapters 3 and 4. And, First Corinthians chapter 15.
My understanding is that when the apostles were gone and were not replaced, the church fell into the apostasy that Paul warned about, the falling away. The churches left stopped baptizing for the dead as they lost the authority and method to do baptisms for the dead. And, until the times of the restitution of all things including the restoration of apostles, prophets and the Church of Jesus Christ in these latter days with Latter Day Saints the ordinance of baptism for the dead ended. It’s now back! Praise the Lord!

 

[Ace Nova]

We agree on that. We disagree on when and the purpose of baptism by water and how it is done. Baptism is for the remission of sins in which an infant cannot sin. And, “Baptizmo” means to immerse completely the entire body as being symbolic of death and reborn into a new life as you come up out of the waters of Judah (Isaiah). Do Catholics do this the way Jesus did?

Now, aside from those administrative differences and doctrine, this isn’t the topic in this thread. It’s about how the dead who did not have the opportunity in life to accept Jesus Christ and be baptized by water which is 100% necessary for living in the kingdom of God forever. Ding and others claimed the spirit of the dead person doesn’t exist in either paradise or hell (purgatory) awaiting their resurrection. That baptism must happen before one dies. So, l pointed out 3 scriptures that say the spirits of those who have died get to have the gospel preached and taught to them. So, out of the Bible that Catholics claim they put together, our spirits don’t die when our physical bodies die. Then, there’s the situation of the water baptism as well as the confirmation of the Holy Ghost. Jesus said “ONLY” by being baptized with water and of the spirit (Holy Ghost) can anyone enter into the Kingdom of God. This is why the early church when the apostles were still on earth with authority baptized those who were dead vicariously. Both water and Holy Ghost. This is in first Peter chapters 3 and 4. And, First Corinthians chapter 15.
My understanding is that when the apostles were gone and were not replaced, the church fell into the apostasy that Paul warned about, the falling away. The churches left stopped baptizing for the dead as they lost the authority and method to do baptisms for the dead. And, until the times of the restitution of all things including the restoration of apostles, prophets and the Church of Jesus Christ in these latter days with Latter Day Saints the ordinance of baptism for the dead ended. It’s now back! Praise the Lord!

Do you believe that it is mandatory to be baptized in order to enter the kingdom of heaven? With no exceptions?

Luke 23:

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Is this not an example of a (non baptized man) being granted entrance into paradise simply by Jesus' spoken word?

 

[Cougarbear]

Do you believe that it is mandatory to be baptized in order to enter the kingdom of heaven? With no exceptions?

Luke 23:

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Is this not an example of a (non baptized man) being granted entrance into paradise simply by Jesus' spoken word?

While Jesus told Nicodemus, “Amen, Amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit” (John 3:5). Paradise is not the kingdom of God. It’s a waiting station just as Hell or Spirit Prison is. The scripture ways NO ONE.

 

[Ace Nova]

While Jesus told Nicodemus, “Amen, Amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit” (John 3:5). Paradise is not the kingdom of God. It’s a waiting station just as Hell or Spirit Prison is. The scripture ways NO ONE.

Where in the Bible does it state that paradise is not the Kingdom of God? The word is used interchangeably with the Kingdom of God, Heaven, etc throughout the Bible. The criminal states "Remember me when you enter your Kingdom" Jesus replies that he will be with him in paradise (Jesus' Kingdom).

The word paradise is also used in every Latin derived language, meaning heaven. There is no other word that means heaven in latin derived languages, other than maybe the word "sky". Even the Our Father in latin derived languages refers to heaven as "the sky".

 

[BreezeWood]

It's supposed to offend you.

rcc or bing, good call for either.

- too bad and happily - that doesn't work.

 

[Cougarbear]

Where in the Bible does it state that paradise is not the Kingdom of God? The word is used interchangeably with the Kingdom of God, Heaven, etc throughout the Bible. The criminal states "Remember me when you enter your Kingdom" Jesus replies that he will be with him in paradise (Jesus' Kingdom).

The word paradise is also used in every Latin derived language, meaning heaven. There is no other word that means heaven in latin derived languages, other than maybe the word "sky". Even the Our Father in latin derived languages refers to heaven as "the sky".

So, are you saying Jesus lied when he said no one can enter without Baptism of water. No one. Even Jesus himself had to be baptized.
So, either paradise is not part of heaven or paradise doesn’t mean heaven. And, what is heaven? What is the Kingdom of God? That would be what Paul termed Celestial Glory or Kingdom. Paradise is part of spirit prison. Why would it be part of spirit prison? Because the spirit is separated from the body and there can be no more progression until the resurrection. The other part of spirit prison is hell or you would call purgatory.

 

[Meriweather]

Of course

I'm not discussing this. Nor did I read your post. The practice is a denigration of other faiths, free will, and God Himself. You ought to be ashamed. Period.

 

[Borillar]

...why bash the worship of others by attacking their faith, religious denomination, or the ways they worship?

Because it isn't the same god they have created in their own image.

 

[Ace Nova]

So, are you saying Jesus lied when he said no one can enter without Baptism of water. No one. Even Jesus himself had to be baptized.
So, either paradise is not part of heaven or paradise doesn’t mean heaven. And, what is heaven? What is the Kingdom of God? That would be what Paul termed Celestial Glory or Kingdom. Paradise is part of spirit prison. Why would it be part of spirit prison? Because the spirit is separated from the body and there can be no more progression until the resurrection. The other part of spirit prison is hell or you would call purgatory.

There very well could be various "levels" of heaven but to insinuate that the word "paradise" refers to some sort of spiritual prison is simply incorrect. It quite literally means "heaven" in almost every language on Earth. Even the Garden of Eden is referred to as an Earthly paradise in the book of Genesis and throughout the Old Testament. (Meaning that it was very close to being heaven on Earth).

And no, Jesus was not "lying" when he stated people would need to be baptized by water in order to enter the Kingdom of heaven. Baptizing by water represents spiritual repentance and forgiveness of sins. Even the passages you quote from Peter state that Baptism by water is a representation of how God's saving grace saved Noah's family from the flood.

John the Baptist states that Baptism by water is spiritual repentance. That's what it has always represented - according to the very first Christian Baptizer himself.

 

[Cougarbear]

I'm not discussing this. Nor did I read your post. The practice is a denigration of other faiths, free will, and God Himself. You ought to be ashamed. Period.

What then are you doing in a forum for debate?

 

[Cougarbear]

There very well could be various "levels" of heaven but to insinuate that the word "paradise" refers to some sort of spiritual prison is simply incorrect. It quite literally means "heaven" in almost every language on Earth. Even the Garden of Eden is referred to as an Earthly paradise in the book of Genesis and throughout the Old Testament. (Meaning that it was very close to being heaven on Earth).

And no, Jesus was not "lying" when he stated people would need to be baptized by water in order to enter the Kingdom of heaven. Baptizing by water represents spiritual repentance and forgiveness of sins. Even the passages you quote from Peter state that Baptism by water is a representation of how God's saving grace saved Noah's family from the flood.

John the Baptist states that Baptism by water is spiritual repentance. That's what it has always represented - according to the very first Christian Baptizer himself.

So, what about the tens of billions of people that had no knowledge of Jesus Christ or Baptism? Still necessary. And that is what his thread is about.

1Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Yep, there is a spirit prison.

 

[K9Buck]

So, what about the tens of billions of people that had no knowledge of Jesus Christ or Baptism?

They get tortured in fire all day and all night by Jesus while he laughs hysterically at their horrific suffering.

Amen.

 

[Cougarbear]

They get tortured in fire all day and all night by Jesus while he laughs hysterically at their horrific suffering.

Amen.

Nope. Jesus went to set up a missionary army and preached the gospel to them. Then, set up baptisms for the dead. Therefore, they were judged fairly.