If Islam is "really a peaceful religion"

[Gunny]

It's kind of a joke, Gunny.

The point of origin for all of this conflict is the Middle East. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are all related and derive from the same source. Nevertheless conflicts within and between these religions are a festering sore which have consistently threatened world peace for a long time, including the peace of people who do not subscribe to monotheism.

Do I really want to destroy all those religious monuments? No. Would the world be better off without them? Probably. Would the world be safer without the squabbling between the monotheistic desert religions? Definitely.

It's local politics raised to the global level.

I can't say I agree. Religion, with all its faults whether real or imagined, defines us as societies. While there are those who wish to deny it becasue the truth doesn't suit their argument, human nature is comprised of seeking shelter, food warmth and companionship. Everything beyond that is contrived, based on societal belief. Those societal beliefs determine what is right and wrong. Human nature does not.

So, if you remove religion; which, has defined almost all societies since the dawn of mankind, you have no basis for the Judeo-Christian belief that is the cornerstone of out society's values.

When you boil away the veneer of religion it all comes down to man's natural fear of difference. While religious belief certainly defines the two societies, it the difference between the two socieities and the unwillingness to accept the other that is the cause for violence.

While you choose to portray Islam, Judaism and Christianity as equivalents, they are not. Islam is the religion AND the law based on values not embraced by Judeo/Christian based Western society. Islam suppresses and destroys and if you don't go along with party line of your particular fiefdom, you get tortured, murdered or both in the name of the religion.

The biggest "threat" to secularists in the US is a monument of the Ten Commandments in an out fo the way alcove in a courthouse.

In the particular instance of Islam vs Christianity, the probem is that one sees the destruction of the other as the solution. In response, Christians/Westerners are now beginning to see the solution to their problem as the destruction of Islam.

But it's mroe than that. It is a cultural war -- Western society vs Arab society, only their society cannot be divorced from their religion because they are one and the same. Ours is not necessarily so.

Without those societies however, you have chaos. Human beings without morals and only the instinct to fulfill actual natural preservation.

Even though you choose to take a third side in this argument as if it does nto pertain to you, Islam does not differentiate between you and me. And if you want to know what typically happens to people proclaiming themselves neutral in a conflict, watch the movie Shennandoah with Jimmy Stewart.

 

[Gunny]

Only a minority of Muslims have tenaciously held on to the past, and a more recent past than you might think. The most virulently extremist views seem to arise from wahhabism, a fundamentalist reading of the Qur'an which arose in the 18th century. A century which many Christian fundamentalists in this country seem stuck in as well.

I disagree. Religiously, most Muslims are stuck in the 7th century. Strict adherence to the word as it was written THEN is one of the basic tenets of modern Islam.

Wahabbism was the Saudi response to fear of Persian Shiism, and flourished mostly in post-WWII Saudi Arabia. Regardless of sect, they ALL teach that Western society and the US in particular is evil.

The biggest distinction between Muslims and your final indictment of Christians is that Islamic law rules Islamic/Arab society while most Christian fundamentalists comprise a very small minority and are seen and labelled as crackpots by mainstream Christians as well as non-Christians. Only disproportionate, sensationalist and negative media coverage make them appear larger and more powerful than they actually are.

 

[mattskramer]

Problem with your argument, as usual, is its entire premise is based on deceit. You're comparing Islam TODAY to what some labelled Christians have done over the years and attempting to pass them off as relevant to one another.

Let's try to make this honest. How about the nutjobs calling themselves Christians that run around picketting funerals claiming God is killing our troops because of homosexuality or some such crap (and DON'T drag this into another of your homo debates).

How many known Christian organizations support them? How many Christians on this board support them? They don't. Mainstream Christians denounce their lunacy at every step and turn.

Your comparison is dishonest and irrelevant. The hypocrisy you attempt to conjure by comparing apples to oranges is bullshit.

And speaking of "beams in one's eye" ..... YOU of ALL people have some nerve calling anyone by name claiming thier arguments are hype and uneducated.

Your EVERY argument is pure fantasy and dishonest analogies.

It is all relative and a matter of degrees - numbers. We are contrasting apples and apples – not apples and oranges. Most moderate Christians oppose terrorism and most moderate Muslims oppose terrorism. Thanks for bringing up the repulsive Christians who picket funerals. I also forgot to mention the old war between the Christians and Protestants in Ireland and Great Britain. Okay - In the past few months, there has been more violence by Muslims than by Christians. Yet each side commits violence. Jews go over the line and commit despicable acts against Muslims. Muslims commit atrocities against Jews. In all practicality, there is nothing new under the sun.

Let’s end this extremist rhetoric. It is as if you are saying that all of Islam (the Koran and the people) was evil, is evil, and will always be evil and that all of Christianity (the Bible and the people) was good, is good, and will forever be good. Such is simply not the case. It is time to stop contrasting and tearing sides apart. It is time for moderation and realizing that there is good and bad in every major religion. Come let us reason together.

 

[nt250]

Only a minority of Muslims have tenaciously held on to the past, and a more recent past than you might think. The most virulently extremist views seem to arise from wahhabism, a fundamentalist reading of the Qur'an which arose in the 18th century. A century which many Christian fundamentalists in this country seem stuck in as well.

The "blame it on the Wahhabists" is a direct off shoot of the "blame it on Bush" camp. Because Wahhabists are most prevelant in Saudi Arabia, and because the Tin Foil Hat Brigade loves to detail all the connections between the House of Saud and the Bush family, the Islam apologists started pulling the Wahhabist shit out of their asses.

It's just another way to blame it all on Bush.

There is only one sect in Islam that does not advocate jihad as a way to spread the faith. I can't remember what it's called, but they are considered heretics by all the others. Shiite and Sunni have several differences, mostly related to the Hadiths each consider "valid", which is related to who is considered a true successor to Muhammad.

All Muslims believe the Koran is the last, literal, true word of God. All Muslims believe that the Koran is the only holy text that is pure, perfect, and unchanged since the angel Gabriel first revealed it to Muhammad, and has never been touched by the hand of man (in Arabic). Not only do all Muslims believe that, they take great pride in that fact.

The sect doesn't matter all that much. All Muslims are admonished to NOT try to understand the Koran by themselves. Unity under Islam is THE most important thing. But since there is no central authority under Islam, it's up to each local "expert" to decide. Shiite's have a more formal structure than Sunni's do, but there is still no real official hierarchy in Islam.

If I were a man, I could rent a storefront, throw some mats on the floor, call it a mosque, and I'd be the local "expert".

 

[mattskramer]

The "blame it on the Wahhabists" is a direct off shoot of the "blame it on Bush" camp. Because Wahhabists are most prevelant in Saudi Arabia, and because the Tin Foil Hat Brigade loves to detail all the connections between the House of Saud and the Bush family, the Islam apologists started pulling the Wahhabist shit out of their asses.

It's just another way to blame it all on Bush.

There is only one sect in Islam that does not advocate jihad as a way to spread the faith. I can't remember what it's called, but they are considered heretics by all the others. Shiite and Sunni have several differences, mostly related to the Hadiths each consider "valid", which is related to who is considered a true successor to Muhammad.

All Muslims believe the Koran is the last, literal, true word of God. All Muslims believe that the Koran is the only holy text that is pure, perfect, and unchanged since the angel Gabriel first revealed it to Muhammad, and has never been touched by the hand of man (in Arabic). Not only do all Muslims believe that, they take great pride in that fact.

The sect doesn't matter all that much. All Muslims are admonished to NOT try to understand the Koran by themselves. Unity under Islam is THE most important thing. But since there is no central authority under Islam, it's up to each local "expert" to decide. Shiite's have a more formal structure than Sunni's do, but there is still no real official hierarchy in Islam.

If I were a man, I could rent a storefront, throw some mats on the floor, call it a mosque, and I'd be the local "expert".

Hey, nt250 –

I though that you were busy researching the arabsforisrael web site. Well – you seem to be taking a long time in researching it. Well, have you found anything sinister in it? Is it all a lie or is there a hidden ulterior motive? Have you read some of the several emails included in that sight? Did you contact the web site’s author? Email addresses are shown.

LOL – It is amazing that you simply refuse to face it. You challenged me to Find one instance of any Muslim who condemns terrorism against Israel. I did so. Why won’t you be a man and admit it?

 

[Bullypulpit]

It is all relative and a matter of degrees - numbers. We are contrasting apples and apples – not apples and oranges. Most moderate Christians oppose terrorism and most moderate Muslims oppose terrorism. Thanks for bringing up the repulsive Christians who picket funerals. I also forgot to mention the old war between the Christians and Protestants in Ireland and Great Britain. Okay - In the past few months, there has been more violence by Muslims than by Christians. Yet each side commits violence. Jews go over the line and commit despicable acts against Muslims. Muslims commit atrocities against Jews. In all practicality, there is nothing new under the sun.

Let’s end this extremist rhetoric. It is as if you are saying that all of Islam (the Koran and the people) was evil, is evil, and will always be evil and that all of Christianity (the Bible and the people) was good, is good, and will forever be good. Such is simply not the case. It is time to stop contrasting and tearing sides apart. It is time for moderation and realizing that there is good and bad in every major religion. Come let us reason together.

The middle path is the most productive choice, avoiding the destructive tendencies of the extremes.

 

[nt250]

Hey, nt250 –

I though that you were busy researching the arabsforisrael web site. Well – you seem to be taking a long time in researching it. Well, have you found anything sinister in it? Is it all a lie or is there a hidden ulterior motive? Have you read some of the several emails included in that sight? Did you contact the web site’s author? Email addresses are shown.

LOL – It is amazing that you simply refuse to face it. You challenged me to Find one instance of any Muslim who condemns terrorism against Israel. I did so. Why won’t you be a man and admit it?

I'm still reading it.

Jeez. How much of it did you read? I've been reading it off an on all day and I'm no where near ready to make a decision on it yet.

Maybe you can help me out? That whole "Moslem" thing has prejudiced me against the site.

What do you think makes it legit?

So far, all I see are a bunch of opinions. Nonie's do not seem to be what most Muslims would consider anywhere near reasonable. Well, reasonable as far as Muslims and Islam is concerned.

 

[Gunny]

It is all relative and a matter of degrees - numbers. We are contrasting apples and apples – not apples and oranges. Most moderate Christians oppose terrorism and most moderate Muslims oppose terrorism. Thanks for bringing up the repulsive Christians who picket funerals. I also forgot to mention the old war between the Christians and Protestants in Ireland and Great Britain. Okay - In the past few months, there has been more violence by Muslims than by Christians. Yet each side commits violence. Jews go over the line and commit despicable acts against Muslims. Muslims commit atrocities against Jews. In all practicality, there is nothing new under the sun.

Let’s end this extremist rhetoric. It is as if you are saying that all of Islam (the Koran and the people) was evil, is evil, and will always be evil and that all of Christianity (the Bible and the people) was good, is good, and will forever be good. Such is simply not the case. It is time to stop contrasting and tearing sides apart. It is time for moderation and realizing that there is good and bad in every major religion. Come let us reason together.

No, it is NOT all relative. There is right and wrong and good and bad. You either beleive that or you don't. You personally obviously do not and it is refelected in your unrealistic views and posts.

You STILL ain't getting it. I brought up the Christians picketting funerals because that is happening NOW. They reflect whacko Chrstianity NOW. And they are shunned by just about anyone and everyone who has expressed an opinion on their beliefs and behavior.

Your so-called "moderate" Muslims might not be willing to commit murder themselves; however, they STILL agree with the same fundamental beliefs as the Islamofascists do. Otherwise, we would be hearing mass denunciations by Muslims instead of the onesy-twosy bones they toos out every once in awhile. They are trained from birth to hate us. It doesn't have to get any simpler than that.

Your irrelevant game of relativity is just bullshit and ignores reality.

 

[Gunny]

Hey, nt250 –

I though that you were busy researching the arabsforisrael web site. Well – you seem to be taking a long time in researching it. Well, have you found anything sinister in it? Is it all a lie or is there a hidden ulterior motive? Have you read some of the several emails included in that sight? Did you contact the web site’s author? Email addresses are shown.

LOL – It is amazing that you simply refuse to face it. You challenged me to Find one instance of any Muslim who condemns terrorism against Israel. I did so. Why won’t you be a man and admit it?

The first thing you would have to explain is how you expect HER to be a "man" about anything? Or is THAT all relative to you too?

 

[Gunny]

It is all relative and a matter of degrees - numbers. We are contrasting apples and apples – not apples and oranges. Most moderate Christians oppose terrorism and most moderate Muslims oppose terrorism. Thanks for bringing up the repulsive Christians who picket funerals. I also forgot to mention the old war between the Christians and Protestants in Ireland and Great Britain. Okay - In the past few months, there has been more violence by Muslims than by Christians. Yet each side commits violence. Jews go over the line and commit despicable acts against Muslims. Muslims commit atrocities against Jews. In all practicality, there is nothing new under the sun.

Let’s end this extremist rhetoric. It is as if you are saying that all of Islam (the Koran and the people) was evil, is evil, and will always be evil and that all of Christianity (the Bible and the people) was good, is good, and will forever be good. Such is simply not the case. It is time to stop contrasting and tearing sides apart. It is time for moderation and realizing that there is good and bad in every major religion. Come let us reason together.

I want to address your last paragraph by itself. Nice sermon. Has NOTHING to do with reality. The reality is, extremist Muslims ARE initiating the violence. Comparing reprisal from their enemies to that is bullshit because motive DOES count.

There is nothing moderate about extreme Islam and addressing it as anything other than extreme is addressing it as something it is not.

You also cannot label Muslims who do not commit murder "moderates" simply because they are not terrorists and have as of yet committed no crime. Their religion is anything but moderate. That too is addressing Islam as something it is not.

Conversely, our government is secular, and the meanings and origin behind our beliefs forgotten. So, it is dishonest to call this a Christian vs Muslim war. It's Western society vs Islam.

I for one am not willing to turn a blind eye to their evil bullshit, nor am I willing to roll over for them and let them have what they want. The bottom line is, what they want for the world is not in the best interest of the world, nor of Mankind period. So long as they choose to use their current methodology attempting to force the rest of the world into subjugation, they're the bad guys and we aren't. And people like you who can't differentiate between the two don't matter much anyway. You'll just go along with whatever the winner tells you to do. In THAT regard only, it would be justice for you that THEY win.

 

[nt250]

No, it is NOT all relative. There is right and wrong and good and bad. You either beleive that or you don't. You personally obviously do not and it is refelected in your unrealistic views and posts.

It's not just him.

The concept of right and wrong and good and bad is so relative to too many people these days.

When the seize at Beslan ended I went to the message board I was posting at at the time and I thought, for sure, people would finally get it.

I thought wrong.

The same people who claimed all we needed to do was find the "root cause" for 9/11 were now saying the same thing about the deliberate targeting and murder of children. They targeted a school. A school.

But it didn't matter to the "root cause" idiots. It was still the same arguments. The people of Chechnya were being "oppressed". It was Russian "aggression" that was to blame.

Even when it was a school and little kids. They still saw it from the terrorists perspective.

I asked: "Was there no other target in Beslan they could have chosen? No army outpost? No police station? No town or government offices? The only target was a school?"

There is no hope for this world because the concept of right and wrong is lost to too many people. They sit back in their safe houses with their internet access and they see evil everywhere their like minded intellectual midgets tell them to look. And they look no further.

 

[007]

No hope. No hope at all.

It's good to realize that 'early' about krammer. Save yourself some aggrivation.

To understand this hellish deviant, you have to reduce yourself to the mindset of thinking it's OK to fuck your daughter.

 

[Annie]

It's not just him.

The concept of right and wrong and good and bad is so relative to too many people these days.

When the seize at Beslan ended I went to the message board I was posting at at the time and I thought, for sure, people would finally get it.

I thought wrong.

The same people who claimed all we needed to do was find the "root cause" for 9/11 were now saying the same thing about the deliberate targeting and murder of children. They targeted a school. A school.

But it didn't matter to the "root cause" idiots. It was still the same arguments. The people of Chechnya were being "oppressed". It was Russian "aggression" that was to blame.

Even when it was a school and little kids. They still saw it from the terrorists perspective.

I asked: "Was there no other target in Beslan they could have chosen? No army outpost? No police station? No town or government offices? The only target was a school?"

There is no hope for this world because the concept of right and wrong is lost to too many people. They sit back in their safe houses with their internet access and they see evil everywhere their like minded intellectual midgets tell them to look. And they look no further.

I have to agree. The 'root causes' have zippo to do with the West, everything to do with what Islam is.

 

[Gunny]

It's not just him.

The concept of right and wrong and good and bad is so relative to too many people these days.

When the seize at Beslan ended I went to the message board I was posting at at the time and I thought, for sure, people would finally get it.

I thought wrong.

The same people who claimed all we needed to do was find the "root cause" for 9/11 were now saying the same thing about the deliberate targeting and murder of children. They targeted a school. A school.

But it didn't matter to the "root cause" idiots. It was still the same arguments. The people of Chechnya were being "oppressed". It was Russian "aggression" that was to blame.

Even when it was a school and little kids. They still saw it from the terrorists perspective.

I asked: "Was there no other target in Beslan they could have chosen? No army outpost? No police station? No town or government offices? The only target was a school?"

There is no hope for this world because the concept of right and wrong is lost to too many people. They sit back in their safe houses with their internet access and they see evil everywhere their like minded intellectual midgets tell them to look. And they look no further.

Moral relativism and matts is the king. He thinks because Islamofascists believe in what they are doing that it somehow lessens the fact that they are just plain-old evil.

Logic and fact dictate that what they want for the world is bad and while not perfect by any means, democracy is not based on the tenets of repression, intolerance and hate. It's based on equality and freedom. I'll take that as right over their wrong ANY day, and people like matts can just go "suck aigs."

 

[nt250]

Moral relativism and matts is the king. He thinks because Islamofascists believe in what they are doing that it somehow lessens the fact that they are just plain-old evil.

Logic and fact dictate that what they want for the world is bad and while not perfect by any means, democracy is not based on the tenets of repression, intolerance and hate. It's based on equality and freedom. I'll take that as right over their wrong ANY day, and people like matts can just go "suck aigs."

There are too many matts.

We're seen as the "hateful" ones.

I've been called every name in the book. Bigot. Racist. Islamophobe.

I've been called a liar so many times it doesn't even phase me anymore.

That's not true. I still can't believe it. When I post a fact such as "all Muslims believe the Koran is the last, literal, true word of God" and someone replies with "that's a lie".

But's that's what they do. It's easier to call me a liar than it is to learn what it is they're defending.

I am so tired of it.

 

[1549]

For all who believe Islam is the problem:

-Violent muslims are most common in violent environments (middle east countries that have been ravaged by war and or geopolitical tension).

-When a European/American muslim turns to violence, the story is always the same. They fell in with the wrong people and began attending radical mosques. This happens to people regardless of faith. Non muslims get swept up in gangs, white supremacy groups, or entities like 'the trench coat mafia'. It is a psychological need, not an act of faith.

-The VAST, VAST, VAST majoirty of European, American, and even the majority of middle eastern muslims are not violent and want the violence to end. Not all violent muslims believe that their religion is violent, rather they have been led to believe that there religion is under attack and that they should protect it.


Enviornment creates extremism, radicalism and violence. Not religion. Plain and simple. Think of middle east terror groups as urban gangs...just on a larger level. For these people being a terrorist fulfills all kinds of emotional needs. The ideological/religious aspect was created as a tool used by the leaders to recruit members, glamorize the group, and also it adds a certain bit of credibility.

 

[nt250]

For all who believe Islam is the problem:

-Violent muslims are most common in violent environments (middle east countries that have been ravaged by war and or geopolitical tension).

-When a European/American muslim turns to violence, the story is always the same. They fell in with the wrong people and began attending radical mosques. This happens to people regardless of faith. Non muslims get swept up in gangs, white supremacy groups, or entities like 'the trench coat mafia'. It is a psychological need, not an act of faith.

-The VAST, VAST, VAST majoirty of European, American, and even the majority of middle eastern muslims are not violent and want the violence to end. Not all violent muslims believe that their religion is violent, rather they have been led to believe that there religion is under attack and that they should protect it.


Enviornment creates extremism, radicalism and violence. Not religion. Plain and simple. Think of middle east terror groups as urban gangs...just on a larger level. For these people being a terrorist fulfills all kinds of emotional needs. The ideological/religious aspect was created as a tool used by the leaders to recruit members, glamorize the group, and also it adds a certain bit of credibility.

What I will never understand is people like you who simply cannot see Islam as the problem.

You can't even follow your own argument. They are led to believe their religion is under attack and they should protect it, but they're being lied to by people who don't follow the religion?

What the fuck are you arguing?

Plain and simple? It's Islam, Stupid.

 

[1549]

What I will never understand is people like you who simply cannot see Islam as the problem.

You can't even follow your own argument. They are led to believe their religion is under attack and they should protect it, but they're being lied to by people who don't follow the religion?

What the fuck are you arguing?

Plain and simple? It's Islam, Stupid.

I do not necessarily mean that the leaders of terrorist organizations do not believe the religion. They are extremists...perhaps even brainwashed themselves. My point is that they use the religious aspect as a tool, but psychology and environment create the violent mindset and create the extremist view itself...not the religion.

 

[-Cp]

Why do morons always jump on "Religion" and say idiotic things like "the world would be better off without it" - and "Religion has killer more people......"


WTF? What about all the KILLINGS DONE IN A SECULAR VEIN? SHOULDN'T THAT MEAN WE SHOULD ALSO DESTORY ALL SECULARISTS?

I'm more inclined to believe that more wrongful deaths of been done in that realm than all religions combined...

What those who haven't been saved by Grace are missing is that at the crux of all wrongful killings - done in the name of Religion or otherwise - is that the folks committing those are sinners carrying out sinful acts.

Additionally - another thing that pisses me off are the ninnies who claim that believing in God is somehow "Close minded"!!! Again I say WTF?!?!?

It takes WAY more of an open mind to believe in God than it does not to..

 

[Dr Grump]

What those who haven't been saved by Grace are missing is that at the crux of all wrongful killings - done in the name of Religion or otherwise - is that the folks committing those are sinners carrying out sinful act..

I don't need a god....any god....to tell me murder is wrong.

It takes WAY more of an open mind to believe in God than it does not to..

Six of one half dozen of the other IMO...