And that's the real difference I am seeing, and why I believe we have no choice but to form two different countries.
Two quotes from Milton Friedman that I have in my signature:
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."
"One of the greatest mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results."
Some on here do not believe that the free market will fix the problems identified. Ultimately,
they do not believe in freedom.
This is the fundamental difference between libertarians and statists/progressives/communists. I don't think we can ever reach common ground. We are so far apart that I doubt we can live in the same country.
The Statists place full faith in government, pretending that the assholes who aspire to hold those offices are not ambitions and power hungry. But, every example throughout history proves that those who seek and obtain power will never stop taking power until they have it all and everyone else is at their disposal.
Government is force. That all it is. Force is the antithesis of liberty.
So, faith in government means that all problems must be solved by government. Solving those problems via government is solving problems via
FORCE.
"This is the right way to treat people, so we're passing a law."
A translation: We are going to FORCE people to treat others the right way.
They demand FORCE but lack to foresight to see how such a demand will end in their demise. Before they know what happened, they end up having all their property confiscated and find themselves laboring to mine salt in Siberia.
Statists will never stop trying to FORCE others to behave the way the statists think they should.
How can we share a country when some demand FORCE at every turn?
We just.....need a divorce. That's it. I am nearly resigned to it.
There's a great book out there which could be said to be one of the finest pieces of literature ever written on the topic of intelligent choice between conflicting isms. A lifetime source-book, it is invaluable for home and office use, most importantly for everyone who seeks to offer others guidance about this basic subject, particularly all civic and public-opinion. The Founders’ writings are the basis of the book’s Twelve Principles - like them, never changing.
It's titled The American Ideal of 1776 The Twelve Basic American Principles, by Hamilton Abert Long. found here for purchase -
https://www.amazon.com/American-ideal-1776-twelve-principles/dp/0911668020/?tag=usmb-20
Anyway. I'm not often fond of copypasta, but for the purpose of expanding on your posting and in synergy with the tenor of thread itself, I want to offer Principle 1 of the The Twelve Basic American Principles contained in the work.
It is Principle 1 for good reason.
And mainly because it's going to be my last response in this useless circle-jerk of a thread. I think the more relevant and fundamental basis for any such discussion on the topic has been absent from the discussion from the start.
Anyway. Here we go....
A Principle of the Traditional American Philosophy
1. The Spiritual is Supreme
". . . all men are
created . . . endowed by their
Creator . .." (Declaration of Independence)
The Principle
1. The fundamental principle underlying the traditional
American philosophy is that the Spiritual is supreme--that Man
is of Divine origin and his spiritual, or religious, nature is of
supreme value and importance compared with things material.
Religious Nature
2. This governmental philosophy is, therefore, essentially
religious in nature. It is uniquely American; no other people in
all history have ever made this principle the basis of their
governmental philosophy. The spiritual brotherhood of men
under the common fatherhood of God is a concept which is
basic to this American philosophy. It expresses the spiritual
relationship of God to Man and, in the light thereof, of Man to
Man. To forget these truths is a most heinous offense against
the spirit of traditional America because the greatest sin is the
lost consciousness of sin.
The fundamentally religious basis of this philosophy is the
foundation of its moral code, which contemplates The
Individual's moral duty as being created by God's Law: the
Natural Law. The Individual's duty requires obedience to this
Higher Law; while knowledge of this duty comes from
conscience, which the religious-minded and morally-aware
Individual feels duty-bound to heed. This philosophy asserts
that there are moral absolutes: truths, such as those
mentioned above, which are binding upon all Individuals at all
times under all circumstances. This indicates some of the
spiritual and moral values which are inherent in its concept of
Individual Liberty-Responsibility.
An Indivisible Whole
3. The American philosophy, based upon this principle, is an
indivisible whole and must be accepted or rejected as such. It
cannot be treated piece-meal. Its fundamentals and its implicit
meanings and obligations must be accepted together with its
benefits.
The Individual's Self-respect
4. The concept of Man's spiritual nature, and the resulting
concept of the supreme dignity and value of each Individual,
provide the fundamental basis for each Individual's
self-respect and the consequent mutual respect among
Individual's. This self-respect as well as this mutual respect
are the outgrowth of, and evidenced by, The Individual's
maintenance of his God-given, unalienable rights. They are
maintained by requiring that government and other Individuals
respect them, as well as by his dedication to his own
unceasing growth toward realization of his highest potential--
spiritually, morally, intellectually, in every aspect of life. This is
in order that he may merit maximum respect by self and by
others.
Some Things Excluded
5. This concept of Man's spiritual nature excludes any idea of
intrusion by government into this Man-to-Man spiritual
relationship. It excludes the anti-moral precept that the end
justifies the means and the related idea that the means can be
separated from the end when judging them morally. This
concept therefore excludes necessarily any idea of attempting
to do good by force--for instance, through coercion of Man by
Government, whether or not claimed to be for his own good or
for the so-called common good or general welfare.
It excludes disbelief in--even doubt as to the existence
of--God as the Creator of Man: and therefore excludes all
ideas, theories and schools of thought--however ethical and
lofty in intentions--which reject affirmative and positive belief
in God as Man's Creator.
The Truly American Concept
6. Only those ideas, programs and practices, regarding things
governmental, which are consistent with the concept that "The
Spiritual is supreme" can justly be claimed to be truly
American traditionally. Anything and everything governmental,
which is in conflict with this concept, is non-American--judged
by traditional belief.
This applies particularly to that which is agnostic, or
atheistic--neutral about, or hostile to, positive and affirmative
belief in this concept based upon belief in God as Man's
Creator. There is not room for doubt, much less disbelief, in
this regard from the standpoint of the traditional American
philosophy. Its indivisible nature makes this inescapably true.
This pertains, of course, to the realm of ideas and not to any
person; it is the conflicting idea which is classified as
non-American, according to this philosophy.
America a Haven For All Religions
7. The traditional American philosophy teaches that belief in
God is the fundamental link which unites the adherents of all
religions in a spiritual brotherhood. This philosophy allows for
no differentiation between them in this unifying conviction: ". .
. all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ." This
philosophy is all inclusive as to believers in God. Although
America was originally colonized predominantly by adherents
of the Christian religion, and principally by Protestants, the
Founding Fathers steadfastly conformed to this all-embracing
character of the approach of the American philosophy to
religion. This was expressly and affirmatively indicated in the
proclamation of 1776 of the fundamental American
philosophy, of its basic principles, in the Declaration of
Independence. This was further indicated, negatively, in
1787-1788 by the Framers and Ratifiers of the
Constitution--as a "blueprint" for the structure of the then
proposed Federal government, with strictly limited powers--by
not permitting it to possess any power with regard to religion.
This implied prohibition against the Federal government was
reinforced by the addition of the First Amendment expressly
prohibiting it, through the Congress, from making any law
"respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof . . ."--the words "an establishment of
religion" being intended to mean, specifically and only, a
church or religious organization which is established,
supported and preferred by the government, like the Church of
England establishments then existing in some of the States.
The Conclusion
8. Belief in Man's Divine origin is the foundation of the
fundamental American principle which controls his relationship
to government: that Man--The Individual--is of supreme
dignity and value because of his spiritual nature.
That's about it
