I Hope This Is True

[Annie]

though I fear it's not. I like Ralph Peters, I think he's usually right on the big issues. I agreed with this until about 2 years ago. I have watched Islamic Africa and Indonesia grow more militant, and NO I don't think we caused it. I think that the 'extreme Islam' is closer to what Muhammed would recognize than most of the forms more 'moderate' Muslims practice. I do hope I'm wrong:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/0907200..._enemy_within_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm

ISLAM-HATERS: AN ENEMY WITHIN

By RALPH PETERS

September 7, 2006 -- ISLAMIST fanatics attacked us and yearn to destroy us. The Muslim civilization of the Middle East has failed comprehensively and will continue to generate violence. The only way to deal with faith-poisoned terrorists is to kill them.

And the world's only hope for long-term peace is for moderate Muslims - by far the majority around the globe - to recapture their own faith.

But a rotten core of American extremists is out to make it harder for them.

The most repugnant trend in the American shouting match that passes for a debate on the struggle with Islamist terrorism isn't the irresponsible nonsense on the left - destructive though that is. The really ugly "domestic insurgency" is among right-wing extremists bent on discrediting honorable conservatism.

How? By insisting that Islam can never reform, that the violent conquest and subjugation of unbelievers is the faith's primary agenda - and, when you read between the lines, that all Muslims are evil and subhuman.

I've received no end of e-mails and letters seeking to "enlighten" me about the insidious nature of Islam. Convinced that I'm naive because I defend American Muslims and refuse to "see" that Islam is 100 percent evil, the writers warn that I'm a foolish "dhimmi," blind to the conspiratorial nature of Islam.

Web sites list no end of extracts from historical documents and Islamic jurisprudence "proving" that holy war against Christians and Jews is the alpha and omega of the Muslim faith. The message between the lines: Muslims are Untermenschen.

We've been here before, folks. Bigotry is bigotry - even when disguised as patriotism. And, invariably, the haters fantasizing about a merciless Crusade never bothered to serve in our military (Hey, guys, there's still time to join. Lay your backsides on the line - and send your kids!).

It's time for our own fanatics to look in the mirror. Hard. (And stop sending me your trash. I'll never sign up for your "Protocols of the Elders of Mecca." You're just the Ku Klux Klan with higher-thread-count sheets.)

As for the books and Web sites listing all those passages encouraging violence against the infidel, well, we could fill entire libraries with bloody-minded texts from the Christian past. And as a believing Christian, I must acknowledge that there's nothing in the Koran as merciless as God's behavior in the Book of Joshua.

Another trait common among those warning us that Islam is innately evil is that few have spent any time in the Muslim world. Well, I have. While the Middle East leaves me ever more despairing of its future, elsewhere, from Senegal to Sulawesi, from Delhi to Dearborn, I've seen no end of vibrant, humane, hopeful currents in the Muslim faith.

I'm no Pollyanna. I'm all for killing terrorists, rather than taking them prisoner. I know we're in a fight for our civilization. But the fight is with the fanatics - a minority of a minority - not with those who simply worship differently than those of us who grew up with the Little Brown Church in the Vale.

Does Islam foster practices that inhibit progress or integration into the modern (and postmodern) world? Yes, as practiced in the greater Middle East, from the Nile to the Indus. Our "allies," the Saudi ruling family, are the embodiment of evil - but they've done far more damage to the Muslim world than to us.

Elsewhere, Muslims are struggling to move their faith forward in constructive ways. And all religions are what living men and women make of them.

In our own country, we should respect our fellow citizens who happen to be Muslims - instead of implying that they're all members of a devious fifth column. More than 3 million Americans profess Islam. How many have strapped on bombs and walked into Wal-Mart?

Sure, bad actors will emerge. But every immigrant group has produced its gangsters, demagogues and common criminals. Fools who insist that "Muslims can't be good Americans" insult both Muslims and America - whose transformative genius should never be underestimated.

The problem isn't the man or woman of faith, but cultural environment. Once free of the maladies of the Middle East, Muslims thrive in America. Like the rest of us.

We are in a knife-fight to the death with fanatics who've perverted a great religion. But those who warn of Muslims in general are heirs of the creeps who once told us Jews can never be real Americans and JFK will serve the Vatican.

Obviously, there's a moral reason for not condemning all Muslims. Real Americans judge men and women by their individual characters and actions, not by the color of their skin or the liturgy they recite on their respective Sabbaths. Sorry, all you bigots: You'll never get the Wannsee Conference, Part II, at Lake Tahoe.

But even for our inveterate haters, those whose personal disappointments have left them with a need to blame others (sounds like al Qaeda to me . . . ), there's a Realpolitik reason not to insult all Muslims: In the serious world of strategy and the military, you don't make unnecessary enemies.

We've got our hands full in the Middle East. Why alienate the Muslims of Indonesia or West Africa (or California)? A wise strategist seeks to divide his enemies, not to recruit for them. Some of the bigots out there might like to try to kill a billion Muslims, but I'm not signing up for their genocidal daydreams - nor will my fellow Americans.

Ultimately, our military actions can only buy time. The long overdue liberal reformation within the Islamic world can only be carried out by Muslims themselves. Those who believe in Islam with all their hearts will have to be the ones who defeat those who hijacked their faith.

Do we have to fight? Yes. But let's fight our true enemies, not the innocent.

 

[Kagom]

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to run this story by my friend Ahmed and get his insight on some things, mostly regarding your opening opinion.

As for my opinion: Maybe they're the ones who have al-Qaida ties

 

[Annie]

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to run this story by my friend Ahmed and get his insight on some things, mostly regarding your opening opinion.

As for my opinion: Maybe they're the ones who have al-Qaida ties

Feel free. My guess is your friend, Ahmed lives in US and is most likely one of the moderates. As I said, I hope I'm wrong to disagree with Peters first hand observations.

 

[Kagom]

Feel free. My guess is your friend, Ahmed lives in US and is most likely one of the moderates. As I said, I hope I'm wrong to disagree with Peters first hand observations.

He's leaning more towards Shia Muslim (which is more conservative), but he does live in the US, however, he knows more about his faith than some scholars seem to.

 

[Annie]

He's leaning more towards Shia Muslim (which is more conservative), but he does live in the US, however, he knows more about his faith than some scholars seem to.

Ok, but how would YOU know that

he knows more about his faith than some scholars seem to.

?

 

[Kagom]

Ok, but how would YOU know that ?

He's like me in the fact that he studies religion. He obviously has chosen to study his own religion and extensively. I'm going off what some of the "experts" I've read have said is all.

 

[Adam's Apple]

I think that the 'extreme Islam' is closer to what Muhammed would recognize than most of the forms more 'moderate' Muslims practice.

I agree with your thinking on this issue, Kathianne. If Islam is a religion of peace, then why are so many Muslims silent regarding the Islamofacists? The Islamofacists might be regarded as a minority within the Muslim world at this time, but what they are doing they are doing in the NAME OF RELIGION, and "moderate" Muslims are not--and have not--condemned them. Muslims are Muslims; they adhere to what is written in the Koran; to kill infidels is honoring Allah. To them, the Islamofacists are just following Allah's and Mohammad's instructions.

I think Peters simply wrote a "wishful thinking" piece, completely ignoring the evidence to the contrary. As the old proverb goes: There is none so blind as those who will not see.

 

[Annie]

He's like me in the fact that he studies religion. He obviously has chosen to study his own religion and extensively. I'm going off what some of the "experts" I've read have said is all.

Again, how do you judge that you or he truly understand what is said? How does anyone? Oh, there are plenty in Christianity that claim they KNOW what God wants, says, etc. Seems true in other religions as well. Humans who KNOW what God thinks. Right. Contradiction in terms.

 

[trobinett]

Again, how do you judge that you or he truly understand what is said? How does anyone? Oh, there are plenty in Christianity that claim they KNOW what God wants, says, etc. Seems true in other religions as well. Humans who KNOW what God thinks. Right. Contradiction in terms.

Not giving much "wiggle" room are you Kathianne?

Opinions are painted with a broad brush, and are not to be taken "literally", lighten up.:gang1:

 

[Kagom]

Again, how do you judge that you or he truly understand what is said? How does anyone? Oh, there are plenty in Christianity that claim they KNOW what God wants, says, etc. Seems true in other religions as well. Humans who KNOW what God thinks. Right. Contradiction in terms.

I'm going off my observations about my friend. And he isn't claiming to know what God wants

 

[Kagom]

And I'd like to also post things my friend Ahmed has said, with his permission of course:

itryandtry: Regarding that topic
itryandtry: two things
itryandtry: 1. There have been countless "fatwas" ie religious rulings against terrorist attacks from all walks of Islam.
itryandtry: Conservative to liebral
itryandtry: *liberal
itryandtry: So those saying moderate Muslims haven't spoke out are fooling themselves
itryandtry: And even those who follow the writings of Qutb, Al Qaeda and the like are far extremes of his beliefs.
itryandtry: One proof Al-Qaeda is outside the fold of orthodox Islam is the fact that (Sunni) Orthodox Islam prohibits one to revolt againt his/her Muslim ruler, while Al-Qaeda has staged (or at least tried to) stage terrorist attacks against the Saudi government, in hopes of eventually going to a coup.
itryandtry: And as far as terrorist attacks, as I mentioned before, everyone from liberals to conservatives have denounced them. If you don't know this you're not educated enough to be discussing this matter. But then again... this is the Internet.
itryandtry: The article mentioned culture, and hinted that perhaps it may have been the cultures which Islam lies in that may be the problem. For example, we have Islamic countries like Malaysia doing great and obviously their cultures differ from Middle-Eastern ones, while we see Pakistan and India, both of which share the same culture but differ in religion (Muslim vs Hindu) are practically in the same economic state, with the exception that India's more stable government may pave the way for better economic life in the future.
itryandtry: What I'd like to add is that I have explored this issue myself, "culture" in Islam, and the educated people who would like to read more into this are free to visit my website www.khanzadaa.org . They should read the "About" section to get a firm idea of this matter.
itryandtry: As far as the attack on my
itryandtry: Conservative beliefs, which one called "moderate", there are no universal terms for this.
itryandtry: I think it would be accurate to say what a normal person calls a "Moderate" Muslim is more likely to be a "Liberal" Muslim, mainly because unlike other religions (except Judaism) Islam is heavily law-oriented, and breaking these laws is simply breaking them, all liberals can do is attack their validity (which still really isn't accepted in any school of thought unless you are a scholar and have the requisites to do so). I am very conservative, I am an avid supporter of the Islamic Government in Iran as well as a partisan of Hezbullah. Nonetheless, I do not agree with any "terrorist" attacks against civilians these organizations truthfully or falsely are charged with.
itryandtry: Overall, I would suggest my friend who I suppose is copying and pasting this to find more intellectual means of exploring these issues, because if the comments in this topic represent the majority of members on the forum, it would be quite frightening. Not so much their views but rather the logic and evidence to back up those views, ones free from Qur'an quotes taken out of context and Wikipedia entries on Islam (PBUH). Rather, non-Muslims who are familiar with both the religion and area, which isn't really that scarce if you know where to look.

 

[Gunny]

And I'd like to also post things my friend Ahmed has said, with his permission of course:

itryandtry: Regarding that topic
itryandtry: two things
itryandtry: 1. There have been countless "fatwas" ie religious rulings against terrorist attacks from all walks of Islam.
itryandtry: Conservative to liebral
itryandtry: *liberal
itryandtry: So those saying moderate Muslims haven't spoke out are fooling themselves
itryandtry: And even those who follow the writings of Qutb, Al Qaeda and the like are far extremes of his beliefs.
itryandtry: One proof Al-Qaeda is outside the fold of orthodox Islam is the fact that (Sunni) Orthodox Islam prohibits one to revolt againt his/her Muslim ruler, while Al-Qaeda has staged (or at least tried to) stage terrorist attacks against the Saudi government, in hopes of eventually going to a coup.
itryandtry: And as far as terrorist attacks, as I mentioned before, everyone from liberals to conservatives have denounced them. If you don't know this you're not educated enough to be discussing this matter. But then again... this is the Internet.
itryandtry: The article mentioned culture, and hinted that perhaps it may have been the cultures which Islam lies in that may be the problem. For example, we have Islamic countries like Malaysia doing great and obviously their cultures differ from Middle-Eastern ones, while we see Pakistan and India, both of which share the same culture but differ in religion (Muslim vs Hindu) are practically in the same economic state, with the exception that India's more stable government may pave the way for better economic life in the future.
itryandtry: What I'd like to add is that I have explored this issue myself, "culture" in Islam, and the educated people who would like to read more into this are free to visit my website www.khanzadaa.org . They should read the "About" section to get a firm idea of this matter.
itryandtry: As far as the attack on my
itryandtry: Conservative beliefs, which one called "moderate", there are no universal terms for this.
itryandtry: I think it would be accurate to say what a normal person calls a "Moderate" Muslim is more likely to be a "Liberal" Muslim, mainly because unlike other religions (except Judaism) Islam is heavily law-oriented, and breaking these laws is simply breaking them, all liberals can do is attack their validity (which still really isn't accepted in any school of thought unless you are a scholar and have the requisites to do so). I am very conservative, I am an avid supporter of the Islamic Government in Iran as well as a partisan of Hezbullah. Nonetheless, I do not agree with any "terrorist" attacks against civilians these organizations truthfully or falsely are charged with.
itryandtry: Overall, I would suggest my friend who I suppose is copying and pasting this to find more intellectual means of exploring these issues, because if the comments in this topic represent the majority of members on the forum, it would be quite frightening. Not so much their views but rather the logic and evidence to back up those views, ones free from Qur'an quotes taken out of context and Wikipedia entries on Islam (PBUH). Rather, non-Muslims who are familiar with both the religion and area, which isn't really that scarce if you know where to look.

Just what we need .... a wannabe-intellectual elitist, liberal muslim. As if islamofascists weren't bad enough on their own.

 

[Abbey Normal]

...
I am very conservative, I am an avid supporter of the Islamic Government in Iran as well as a partisan of Hezbullah. Nonetheless, I do not agree with any "terrorist" attacks against civilians these organizations truthfully or falsely are charged with.
...

Using the word "terrorist" as a limiter on the word 'attacks', and putting it in quotes, allows the writer to support all kinds of killings, as long as he does not deem them "terrorist" in a nature. It's an easy way to justify all sort of atrocities.

 

[Annie]

Not giving much "wiggle" room are you Kathianne?

Opinions are painted with a broad brush, and are not to be taken "literally", lighten up.:gang1:

You post your way, I will mine. Thanks for all the words of wisdom, though.