I am not understanding why single payer would be bad

[Political Junky]

I judge on my experience in Europe. Their system sucks.

Really? They all seem to like it there.

Healthcare System Ratings: U.S., Great Britain, Canada

Except for the dead ones.

Europe has a higher life expectancy than America.

 

[Revere]

Really? They all seem to like it there.

Healthcare System Ratings: U.S., Great Britain, Canada

Except for the dead ones.

Europe has a higher life expectancy than America.

Not if Americans' high accidental death rates and race based disease states are factored out.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Also add in that Europeans in general actually get out of their houses and do things like go for walks.

 

[Political Junky]

Except for the dead ones.

Europe has a higher life expectancy than America.

Not if Americans' high accidental death rates and race based disease states are factored out.

Europe has many ethnicities too. And accidents? If you keep making exceptions, you'll arrive at any conclusion you want.

 

[antagon]

Communism... socialism. A distinction without meaning. They operate functionally the same as the rest of the leftist rainbow which has it's roots in feudalism: Total government control of the lives of people who aren't in power.

this is how you are an ignoramus though, fitz. capitalism has its roots in feudalism. communism and socialism both have their roots in capitalism.

Explain Jakob Fugger then? A man so rich he bailed out a nation state?

i dont know who that was or what his significance to the argument is.

Why was it that the merchant class, which didn't exist till the invention of Banking (to steal a term from Civilization) tipped the noble class on it's ear? They destroyed the 'estate' system of feudalism because it was composed of RICH members of the Third Estate (the vox populi) and exercised power like the First, and set demands to the Second

i'd answer your question with a different answer than you have put forward:

trade and empire. also being a fan of civ, the capacity for globalization through the caravel had a considerably greater impact on feudal state's priorities than did any ideological social justice as you propose. with the facilitation of global trade and growing factors under the control of emperial governments, capitalism by way of mercantile economics was inevitable.

explain how socialism and modern communism are all based on criticisms of capitalism if they preceded capitalism itself. how is it thomas mun and adam smith predate folks like karl marx?

i've never minored in history. i just know there's a difference between socialism or communism and feudalism.
[/QUOTE]

 

[antagon]

Europe has a higher life expectancy than America.

Not if Americans' high accidental death rates and race based disease states are factored out.

Europe has many ethnicities too. And accidents? If you keep making exceptions, you'll arrive at any conclusion you want.

its not about exceptions as much as causation. if you aim to conclude that life expectancy in europe is an indication of their superior healthcare, i'd think it's because you're obstinate to the other factors which play into life expectancy. isn't that fair? do we all live to a period dictated by the quality of medical care we get, or is it plausible that other factors play in?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Europe has a higher life expectancy than America.

Not if Americans' high accidental death rates and race based disease states are factored out.

Europe has many ethnicities too. And accidents? If you keep making exceptions, you'll arrive at any conclusion you want.

Give me a break. Europe isn't even vaguely diverse enough to change their life expectancy rate. Statistically speaking, they're homogenous.

As for exceptions, there's nothing wrong with making exceptions for things that aren't related to the topic. In this case, the topic is "how much does the health care system affect life expectancy?" so it's not only appropriate, but vital, to except things that aren't affected by health care, like accidents, homicides, ethnicity . . .

 

[Greenbeard]

Hot off the presses.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Hot off the presses.

Honestly, do you people ever bother to read about your sources to look for an agenda, or do you just believe anything you can find online that supports your worldview? That's a rhetorical question.

Health Affairs isn't exactly JAMA. For starters, their own website says this:

"Health Affairs is the leading journal of health policy thought and research."

Health policy thought and research. In other words, political agenda-pushing. Reading further, you see that they are a subsidiary of Project HOPE, a left-of-center non-profit.

If you want to find something in a "peer-reviewed journal", try one that's a MEDICAL journal, not a "health policy thought" journal.

 

[Greenbeard]

Health Affairs isn't exactly JAMA.

No kidding, HA is a health policy journal, not a medical journal. Very observant.

 

[Trajan]

gee, that sounds wonderful!!!!! any like you know, cost issues with that prgm.?

I should've guessed one of the reactionaries would show up soon enough to offer their brilliant solution of "stop treating people."

You're right, treating sick elderly people costs money. Who knew?

thx for side stepping an answer, what? no talking points posted at the water cooler yet?

 

[Big Fitz]

explain how socialism and modern communism are all based on criticisms of capitalism if they preceded capitalism itself. how is it thomas mun and adam smith predate folks like karl marx?

Well you're not getting a paper or thesis.

Why did Smith precede Marx? Simple, he defined capitalism. He had to come before the critics of the new understanding of economics could exist. But think about it. What do the critics of capitalism all want, functionally speaking? A return to a feudal system with different nobility (preferably them).

How is the party different from nobility? How are serfs different from the proletariat?

Capitalism came as an affront to the Feudal and mercantile systems that existed before it. Jakob Fugger if you must know was a banking magnate who became one of the richest people who ever lived in adjusted dollars. His influence helped shape the Renaissance in Germany and wielded more power than many landed nobility, till the Holy Roman Empire decided to make him landed nobility as well.

The rise of the rich 3rd estate threw the entire concept of powerless serfs under the carriage. The nobility who had power, but not necessarily the money (for the two do not always go hand in hand) looked for many ways to strip the newly acquired wealth from these people who were meant to be their servants but were managing to even exceed their station.

As well the nouveau riche discovered that they knew how to manufacture and earn money gave them the ability to enjoy the luxuries reserved once ONLY for nobility and grew a powerful taste for it. They lacked the political power though to defend what they had earned, and often were more productive and useful members of society, and began to consider if they did not deserve their rightful place in power.

If anything, There is more in common with the old, obsolete feudal system and the leftist rainbow (liberalism, Communism, Marxism, Socialism, Progressivism, Fascism). Conversely, capitalism has more in common with the political upheaval of the 1700's and the philosophy of Burke among many other similar philosophers.

I'm sorry, but you're very wrong in this. Very very VERY wrong in who the historical founders of modern leftist thought are. They are kith and kin philosophically, more with Louis the XIV than Adam Smith.

 

[wyomingpatriot]

ive lived in germany for a year as an exchange student. i fail to see how the quality of their doctors or hospitals are inferior to america's. that's just anti-obamacare propaganda.

 

[antagon]

the leftist rainbow

this is a lame answer. instead, marxism is designed entirely from a capitalist basis proposing 'remedies' for what marx criticized about it.

this is supported by chronology, of course, but also from marx himself in his works. you call me wrong, but persist in characterizing a system of egalitarian policy like communism as kin with a feudal system aimed at promoting elitism. how are you so dense?

 

[wyomingpatriot]

and i stayed with a very rich family, btw, who very easily could have flown to america if it that was really the case our asshole doctors are so much better than their asshole doctors.

 

[SFC Ollie]

ive lived in germany for a year as an exchange student. i fail to see how the quality of their doctors or hospitals are inferior to america's. that's just anti-obamacare propaganda.

I have two sons who live there as not students. The eldest would tell me he would make 6000 Euros and take home 2000. Think about it.

 

[Big Fitz]

the leftist rainbow

this is a lame answer. instead, marxism is designed entirely from a capitalist basis proposing 'remedies' for what marx criticized about it.

this is supported by chronology, of course, but also from marx himself in his works. you call me wrong, but persist in characterizing a system of egalitarian policy like communism as kin with a feudal system aimed at promoting elitism. how are you so dense?

I understand. You don't get it.

 

[jeffrockit]

Really? They all seem to like it there.

Healthcare System Ratings: U.S., Great Britain, Canada

Except for the dead ones.

The US ranks behind all those European countries in terms of life span, infant mortality, and nearly every other statistic as well.

That has been proven to be untrue many times. Other countries don't count in the infant mortality rate stillborn, partially born or unborn aborted babies, the US counts all, so to compare our numbers to others is an unfair comparison.
As it has been documented before, many come from other countries to get healthcare in the US. Why?
"Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States."
N.L. Premier Williams set to have heart surgery in U.S.

Are there problems with the HC system in the US, yes. Is the govt the answer to fix these problems, No.
Since Obama loves to create Czars and commissions, one to help curtail the fraud, waste and abuse within the HC system such as Medicare and Medicaid would be a big step in the right direction to cutting back on taxpayer dollars spent. The govt should begin by policing its own before trying to create more Bureaucracy. Overhauling what already exists would seem to make more logical sense that the new Obamacare mess.

 

[tinydancer]

I'm just thrilled that Canadian Health Care has not gotten as bad as the NHS.

Hell's bells its a nightmare in the UK. On the bright side we have a conservative government now that is working with the provinces to attempt to improve wait times and budgets for medications.

The UK has driven it's health care system over the White Cliffs of Dover and I have no idea how they can even attempt to bring it back from its death throes.

What I really hate is the "all or nothing" approach. I myself have been championing the two tier health system in France.

I know, I know there is not a lot to respect there but you really have to put aside your feelings and check out their healthcare system.

It's awesome.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm just thrilled that Canadian Health Care has not gotten as bad as the NHS.

Hell's bells its a nightmare in the UK. On the bright side we have a conservative government now that is working with the provinces to attempt to improve wait times and budgets for medications.

The UK has driven it's health care system over the White Cliffs of Dover and I have no idea how they can even attempt to bring it back from its death throes.

What I really hate is the "all or nothing" approach. I myself have been championing the two tier health system in France.

I know, I know there is not a lot to respect there but you really have to put aside your feelings and check out their healthcare system.

It's awesome.

Awesome? I don't think so.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-613.pdf

They have a whole section explaining France's health care system, its pluses and minuses, and why it's based on cultural assumptions and priorities that would make it nigh impossible to import to America.