Huh. This is still a thing? Really???

[g5000]

Yeah, it seems that judicial activism is much more common on the right.

Not so. They are more God fearing on the right. Do you know what our national motto is?

If you're referring to "In God we Trust"? Yeah...that's been the national motto since all of 1956, when Eisenhower needed a rally against the "atheist communists". For most of this nation's history, it was the much more inclusive, and rational - considering the nature of our nation - e pluribus unim - Out of many, one.

But, you know, you make a valid point, if we ignore history.

Every Congress has opened with a prayer since the days of the Continental Congress.

The Creator was invoked in our Declaration of Independence.

To pretend God was not an important part of daily American life and an important part of our Founding is to be beyond retarded. It is to be willfully ignorant.

To pretend that "Creator" and the Christian conception of God are synonymous is the only willful ignorance. The fact that many of the founding fathers were non-christian deists has been demonstrated time, after time, yet the advocates for theocracy constantly insist that the "founding fathers" were all christians.

I have not made the claim they were Christians. I have pointed out several times on this forum that Jefferson was a Deist.

 

[Agit8r]

Religion and freedom and democracy were the ideas brought to America by the Puritans.

The South, on the other hand, was settled by people seeking material wealth. Gold and silver.

And so right from the beginning, the seeds of discord were sown between the North and South.

Virginia received the first English colony; the immigrants took possession of it in 1607. The idea that mines of gold and silver are the sources of national wealth was at that time singularly prevalent in Europe; a fatal delusion, which has done more to impoverish . the European nations who adopted it, and has cost more lives in America, than the united influence of war and bad laws. The men sent to Virginia 1 were seekers of gold, adventurers without resources and without character, whose turbulent and restless spirit endangered the infant colony 2 and rendered its progress uncertain. Artisans and agriculturists arrived afterwards; and, although they were a more moral and orderly race of men, they were hardly in any respect above the level of the inferior classes in England.3 No lofty views, no spiritual conception, presided over the foundation of these new settlements. The colony was scarcely established when slavery was introduced;4 this was the capital fact which was to exercise an immense influence on the character, the laws, and the whole future of the South. Slavery, as I shall afterwards show, dishonors labor; it introduces idleness into society, and with idleness, ignorance and pride, luxury and distress. It enervates the powers of the mind and benumbs the activity of man. The influence of slavery, united to the English character, explains the manners and the social condition of the Southern states.

The puritans believed in religious freedom? Really? Unless you wanted to celebrate Christmas among them

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

For your marriage to be recognized by God, your marriage ceremony only has to be performed by someone God recognizes.

But if you want government cash and prizes for being married, that is an entirely separate matter outside of religion. To be eligible for these worldly materials, your union has to be sanctioned by a state official. It has NOTHING to do with God. It has to do with meeting the qualifications to collect government gifts.

It seems the judge and quite a few other ignorant people fail to grasp this simple concept.

Well, I would submit that marriage, even sans "God", is about more than just "government cash and prizes". It doesn't require any god to recognize the value of commitment, fidelity, and a life partner.

However, beyond that, I think you, and I were coming to the same conclusion. Thank you?

Why do you need the state to recognize your commitment? You don't.

You do it for no other reason than to qualify for government cash and prizes.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I did it for two reasons. First, it is traditional that committed couples get married, and there is something to be said for honouring traditions that have nothing to do with religion. Second, I did it to clarify health, and custody issues. Should my wife become grievously ill, or suffer an accident, i would like to have the legal authority to make decisions about her care, so that I will know her wishes are being met, and, if she passes, I would like to have some legal standing to try to insure that my step-son has an alternative to being shipped off to a "father" he has not seen in 5 years, has not spoken to in 4, and wants nothing to do with.

Now, you can call that "government prizes" if you like. I call it ensuring that I can care for the family I love.

Yes, visitation is a government prize you get for being married.

As are Social Security survivor benefits. That's some of the cash you get.

Why do you need the State to recognize your commitment other than for these reasons?

What do you think gay marriage is all about? I've said this all along.

 

[Hossfly]

Because the current trend in America is to deny God Almighty, America is being punished severely and are experiencing disasters and calamities daily. For being heathens and devil worshipers.

Floods, fires, hurricanes, tornadoes, murder, terrorism,etc, etc. Some people aren't paying attention and I get a couple of funnies. Ain't that a blast?

Floods, fires, hurricanes, tornadoes...huh. Those all sound environmental. What's another word for that? Oh yeah...climate. But, let's not go there, right? Let's just call it "God's Will", because that is soooo much more rational.

Are you suggesting that murder is a new thing? And you get that the whole point of terrorism is because one religion doesn't like the way another religion worships the "Magic-Man-in-the-Sky", right? That's not a sign of godlessness. If anything, it's a sign you're doing it right, because the extremists of other religion hates you.

The Great Flood. Gods will.

Mark Twain said, " Such is the human race, often it seems a pity that Noah...didn't miss the boat."

 

[g5000]

This mixing of religion and politics is death to religion. It is inviting the devil into your home.


Alexis de Tocqueville again:


The unbelievers of Europe attack the Christians as their political opponents rather than as their religious adversaries; they hate the Christian religion as the opinion of a party much more than as an error of belief; and they reject the clergy less because they are the representatives of the Deity than because they are the allies of government.

In Europe, Christianity has been intimately united to the powers of the earth. Those powers are now in decay, and it is, as it were, buried under their ruins. The living body of religion has been bound down to the dead corpse of superannuated polity; cut but the bonds that restrain it, and it will rise once more. I do not know what could restore the Christian church of Europe to the energy of its earlier days; that power belongs to God alone; but it may be for human policy to leave to faith the full exercise of the strength which it still retains.


Fast forward 180 years from when that was written, and we now see the exact same strangulation of religion in America, due to the mixing of politics and religion.

 

[Czernobog]

Yeah, it seems that judicial activism is much more common on the right.

Not so. They are more God fearing on the right. Do you know what our national motto is?

If you're referring to "In God we Trust"? Yeah...that's been the national motto since all of 1956, when Eisenhower needed a rally against the "atheist communists". For most of this nation's history, it was the much more inclusive, and rational - considering the nature of our nation - e pluribus unim - Out of many, one.

But, you know, you make a valid point, if we ignore history.

Every Congress has opened with a prayer since the days of the Continental Congress.

The Creator was invoked in our Declaration of Independence.

To pretend God was not an important part of daily American life and an important part of our Founding is to be beyond retarded. It is to be willfully ignorant.

To pretend that "Creator" and the Christian conception of God are synonymous is the only willful ignorance. The fact that many of the founding fathers were non-christian deists has been demonstrated time, after time, yet the advocates for theocracy constantly insist that the "founding fathers" were all christians.

I have not made the claim they were Christians. I have pointed out several times on this forum that Jefferson was a Deist.

And, like it or not, "God" as conceptualized by Christians was not a founding principle of this nation. Now, if you were to so "a divine guidance" was founding principle, I might be harder pressed to disagree; however, "God", at least in American political parlance, almost invariable refers to the Christian concept of divinity. That I would take exception to.

 

[g5000]

For your marriage to be recognized by God, your marriage ceremony only has to be performed by someone God recognizes.

But if you want government cash and prizes for being married, that is an entirely separate matter outside of religion. To be eligible for these worldly materials, your union has to be sanctioned by a state official. It has NOTHING to do with God. It has to do with meeting the qualifications to collect government gifts.

It seems the judge and quite a few other ignorant people fail to grasp this simple concept.

Well, I would submit that marriage, even sans "God", is about more than just "government cash and prizes". It doesn't require any god to recognize the value of commitment, fidelity, and a life partner.

However, beyond that, I think you, and I were coming to the same conclusion. Thank you?

Why do you need the state to recognize your commitment? You don't.

You do it for no other reason than to qualify for government cash and prizes.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I did it for two reasons. First, it is traditional that committed couples get married, and there is something to be said for honouring traditions that have nothing to do with religion. Second, I did it to clarify health, and custody issues. Should my wife become grievously ill, or suffer an accident, i would like to have the legal authority to make decisions about her care, so that I will know her wishes are being met, and, if she passes, I would like to have some legal standing to try to insure that my step-son has an alternative to being shipped off to a "father" he has not seen in 5 years, has not spoken to in 4, and wants nothing to do with.

Now, you can call that "government prizes" if you like. I call it ensuring that I can care for the family I love.

Yes, visitation is a government prize you get for being married.

As are Social Security survivor benefits. That's some of the cash you get.

Why do you need the State to recognize your commitment other than for these reasons?

What do you think gay marriage is all about? I've said this all along.

Gay marriage is all about collecting the exact same cash and prizes the rest of us get for being married. It has nothing to do with religion.

If you search "cash and prizes" on my username, you will find I have been pointing this out since I arrived on this forum.

 

[Hossfly]

This mixing of religion and politics is death to religion. It is inviting the devil into your home.


Alexis de Tocqueville again:


The unbelievers of Europe attack the Christians as their political opponents rather than as their religious adversaries; they hate the Christian religion as the opinion of a party much more than as an error of belief; and they reject the clergy less because they are the representatives of the Deity than because they are the allies of government.

In Europe, Christianity has been intimately united to the powers of the earth. Those powers are now in decay, and it is, as it were, buried under their ruins. The living body of religion has been bound down to the dead corpse of superannuated polity; cut but the bonds that restrain it, and it will rise once more. I do not know what could restore the Christian church of Europe to the energy of its earlier days; that power belongs to God alone; but it may be for human policy to leave to faith the full exercise of the strength which it still retains.


Fast forward 180 years from when that was written, and we now see the exact same strangulation of religion in America, due to the mixing of politics and religion.

The Israelis don't have any problems mixing religion and politics. Been that way since Moses.

 

[g5000]

The Israelis don't have any problems mixing religion and politics.

Nor do the Iranians.

You really think all that is working out well in the Middle East?

 

[Agit8r]

I suppose there are Muslims on the bench... would these right wingers approve if they included their beliefs in wedding ceremonies?

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Well, I would submit that marriage, even sans "God", is about more than just "government cash and prizes". It doesn't require any god to recognize the value of commitment, fidelity, and a life partner.

However, beyond that, I think you, and I were coming to the same conclusion. Thank you?

Why do you need the state to recognize your commitment? You don't.

You do it for no other reason than to qualify for government cash and prizes.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I did it for two reasons. First, it is traditional that committed couples get married, and there is something to be said for honouring traditions that have nothing to do with religion. Second, I did it to clarify health, and custody issues. Should my wife become grievously ill, or suffer an accident, i would like to have the legal authority to make decisions about her care, so that I will know her wishes are being met, and, if she passes, I would like to have some legal standing to try to insure that my step-son has an alternative to being shipped off to a "father" he has not seen in 5 years, has not spoken to in 4, and wants nothing to do with.

Now, you can call that "government prizes" if you like. I call it ensuring that I can care for the family I love.

Yes, visitation is a government prize you get for being married.

As are Social Security survivor benefits. That's some of the cash you get.

Why do you need the State to recognize your commitment other than for these reasons?

What do you think gay marriage is all about? I've said this all along.

Gay marriage is all about collecting the exact same cash and prizes the rest of us get for being married. It has nothing to do with religion.

If you search "cash and prizes" on my username, you will find I have been pointing this out since I arrived on this forum.

That was my point...

 

[g5000]

Why do you need the state to recognize your commitment? You don't.

You do it for no other reason than to qualify for government cash and prizes.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I did it for two reasons. First, it is traditional that committed couples get married, and there is something to be said for honouring traditions that have nothing to do with religion. Second, I did it to clarify health, and custody issues. Should my wife become grievously ill, or suffer an accident, i would like to have the legal authority to make decisions about her care, so that I will know her wishes are being met, and, if she passes, I would like to have some legal standing to try to insure that my step-son has an alternative to being shipped off to a "father" he has not seen in 5 years, has not spoken to in 4, and wants nothing to do with.

Now, you can call that "government prizes" if you like. I call it ensuring that I can care for the family I love.

Yes, visitation is a government prize you get for being married.

As are Social Security survivor benefits. That's some of the cash you get.

Why do you need the State to recognize your commitment other than for these reasons?

What do you think gay marriage is all about? I've said this all along.

Gay marriage is all about collecting the exact same cash and prizes the rest of us get for being married. It has nothing to do with religion.

If you search "cash and prizes" on my username, you will find I have been pointing this out since I arrived on this forum.

That was my point...

I am of the opinion that we need the government to get OUT of ALL our marriages as much as possible.

But if we are going to use our laws to bestow cash and prizes, then the Constitution demands we extend equal protection of those laws to everyone.

 

[JoeNormal]

Because the current trend in America is to deny God Almighty, America is being punished severely and are experiencing disasters and calamities daily. For being heathens and devil worshipers.

The disasters and calamities are mostly being visited upon the Bible belt.

 

[bendog]

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I did it for two reasons. First, it is traditional that committed couples get married, and there is something to be said for honouring traditions that have nothing to do with religion. Second, I did it to clarify health, and custody issues. Should my wife become grievously ill, or suffer an accident, i would like to have the legal authority to make decisions about her care, so that I will know her wishes are being met, and, if she passes, I would like to have some legal standing to try to insure that my step-son has an alternative to being shipped off to a "father" he has not seen in 5 years, has not spoken to in 4, and wants nothing to do with.

Now, you can call that "government prizes" if you like. I call it ensuring that I can care for the family I love.

Yes, visitation is a government prize you get for being married.

As are Social Security survivor benefits. That's some of the cash you get.

Why do you need the State to recognize your commitment other than for these reasons?

What do you think gay marriage is all about? I've said this all along.

Gay marriage is all about collecting the exact same cash and prizes the rest of us get for being married. It has nothing to do with religion.

If you search "cash and prizes" on my username, you will find I have been pointing this out since I arrived on this forum.

That was my point...

I am of the opinion that we need the government to get OUT of ALL our marriages as much as possible.

But if we are going to use our laws to bestow cash and prizes, then the Constitution demands we extend equal protection of those laws to everyone.

I think it was the legal rights of gay partners to participate fully in child and spouse care, as well as estate and intestate distribution. But, yeah, religion or "the ick factor" is not a ground for discrimination

 

[BULLDOG]

Bottom line, judges are allowed to perform marriages. It is not a requirement for the job. They can perform all marriage requests, some, or none, and they can chose which ones. That's different than the County Clerk whose job requirements include issuing Marriage licenses. Of course, the judge is being a jerk, but he is allowed to be a jerk in this case.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I did it for two reasons. First, it is traditional that committed couples get married, and there is something to be said for honouring traditions that have nothing to do with religion. Second, I did it to clarify health, and custody issues. Should my wife become grievously ill, or suffer an accident, i would like to have the legal authority to make decisions about her care, so that I will know her wishes are being met, and, if she passes, I would like to have some legal standing to try to insure that my step-son has an alternative to being shipped off to a "father" he has not seen in 5 years, has not spoken to in 4, and wants nothing to do with.

Now, you can call that "government prizes" if you like. I call it ensuring that I can care for the family I love.

Yes, visitation is a government prize you get for being married.

As are Social Security survivor benefits. That's some of the cash you get.

Why do you need the State to recognize your commitment other than for these reasons?

What do you think gay marriage is all about? I've said this all along.

Gay marriage is all about collecting the exact same cash and prizes the rest of us get for being married. It has nothing to do with religion.

If you search "cash and prizes" on my username, you will find I have been pointing this out since I arrived on this forum.

That was my point...

I am of the opinion that we need the government to get OUT of ALL our marriages as much as possible.

But if we are going to use our laws to bestow cash and prizes, then the Constitution demands we extend equal protection of those laws to everyone.

While I don't support gay marriage in principal, I agree with you on this note. If we are going to bestow government sanctioned advantages, we must bestow them to all. But it stops there for me. I should not be forced to provide non-essential services.... and frankly, if I were gay, and someone didn't want to bake me a cake because I was gay, why on Earth would I want to give that person my money anyway? Somebody will bake you a cake.

 

[Czernobog]

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I did it for two reasons. First, it is traditional that committed couples get married, and there is something to be said for honouring traditions that have nothing to do with religion. Second, I did it to clarify health, and custody issues. Should my wife become grievously ill, or suffer an accident, i would like to have the legal authority to make decisions about her care, so that I will know her wishes are being met, and, if she passes, I would like to have some legal standing to try to insure that my step-son has an alternative to being shipped off to a "father" he has not seen in 5 years, has not spoken to in 4, and wants nothing to do with.

Now, you can call that "government prizes" if you like. I call it ensuring that I can care for the family I love.

Yes, visitation is a government prize you get for being married.

As are Social Security survivor benefits. That's some of the cash you get.

Why do you need the State to recognize your commitment other than for these reasons?

What do you think gay marriage is all about? I've said this all along.

Gay marriage is all about collecting the exact same cash and prizes the rest of us get for being married. It has nothing to do with religion.

If you search "cash and prizes" on my username, you will find I have been pointing this out since I arrived on this forum.

That was my point...

I am of the opinion that we need the government to get OUT of ALL our marriages as much as possible.

But if we are going to use our laws to bestow cash and prizes, then the Constitution demands we extend equal protection of those laws to everyone.

Not possible. We will always need laws (government involvement) to regulate things like probate, and authority to represent citizens in medical matters, etc. So government will always have a vested interest in marriage. As such your final statement, which I still think is a rather cynical portrayal of the issue, is correct.

 

[g5000]

Yes, visitation is a government prize you get for being married.

As are Social Security survivor benefits. That's some of the cash you get.

Why do you need the State to recognize your commitment other than for these reasons?

What do you think gay marriage is all about? I've said this all along.

Gay marriage is all about collecting the exact same cash and prizes the rest of us get for being married. It has nothing to do with religion.

If you search "cash and prizes" on my username, you will find I have been pointing this out since I arrived on this forum.

That was my point...

I am of the opinion that we need the government to get OUT of ALL our marriages as much as possible.

But if we are going to use our laws to bestow cash and prizes, then the Constitution demands we extend equal protection of those laws to everyone.

Not possible. We will always need laws (government involvement) to regulate things like probate, and authority to represent citizens in medical matters, etc. So government will always have a vested interest in marriage. As such your final statement, which I still think is a rather cynical portrayal of the issue, is correct.

Most of those things can be achieved by a contract.

Most of the tax breaks and other cash and prizes are completely unnecessary. They are government gifts to get votes, nothing more.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Yes, visitation is a government prize you get for being married.

As are Social Security survivor benefits. That's some of the cash you get.

Why do you need the State to recognize your commitment other than for these reasons?

What do you think gay marriage is all about? I've said this all along.

Gay marriage is all about collecting the exact same cash and prizes the rest of us get for being married. It has nothing to do with religion.

If you search "cash and prizes" on my username, you will find I have been pointing this out since I arrived on this forum.

That was my point...

I am of the opinion that we need the government to get OUT of ALL our marriages as much as possible.

But if we are going to use our laws to bestow cash and prizes, then the Constitution demands we extend equal protection of those laws to everyone.

Not possible. We will always need laws (government involvement) to regulate things like probate, and authority to represent citizens in medical matters, etc. So government will always have a vested interest in marriage. As such your final statement, which I still think is a rather cynical portrayal of the issue, is correct.

The only reason government has a vested interest in marriage is because it has involved itself in marriage.

 

[Czernobog]

What do you think gay marriage is all about? I've said this all along.

Gay marriage is all about collecting the exact same cash and prizes the rest of us get for being married. It has nothing to do with religion.

If you search "cash and prizes" on my username, you will find I have been pointing this out since I arrived on this forum.

That was my point...

I am of the opinion that we need the government to get OUT of ALL our marriages as much as possible.

But if we are going to use our laws to bestow cash and prizes, then the Constitution demands we extend equal protection of those laws to everyone.

Not possible. We will always need laws (government involvement) to regulate things like probate, and authority to represent citizens in medical matters, etc. So government will always have a vested interest in marriage. As such your final statement, which I still think is a rather cynical portrayal of the issue, is correct.

Most of those things can be achieved by a contract.

Most of the tax breaks and other cash and prizes are completely unnecessary. They are government gifts to get votes, nothing more.

And what is a marriage? oh, yeah...a contract. You just take issue with it being called a marriage. Well, tough. it is what it is. We have a contract that covers all of those things; it's called a marriage contract.