How They Lie About Lincoln

[Kevin_Kennedy]

There would be very stiff competition indeed for the literary award of "Most Absurd Lies and Myths About Lincoln." In the running would be almost all of Harry Jaffa’s writing, including the statement in his latest Lincoln book that "Lincoln opposed making voters or jurors of Negroes in the 1850s so that they could be voters and jurors today." Or Gabor Borit’s statement that Lincoln’s lifelong advocacy of "colonization," or deportation of black people from America, is an example of "how honest people lie."

But there is a new entry to the field: an article from the February 9, 2009 issue of Newsmax.com by Newt Gingrich and William Forstchen entitled "What Would He Say to Us Today?" It seems as though every time Newt Gingrich, who never served in the military himself, begins making the case for sending other peoples’ children off to die in another unnecessary war, he starts quoting Lincoln. A couple of years ago Gingrich wrote an article for the Wall Street Journal in which he advocated a military invasion and occupation of Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and North Korea. The title of the article was "Lincoln and Bush." President Bush should "be like Lincoln," he said, and initiate five more wars simultaneously. More recently, Gingrich has been calling for the nuking of North Korea, so it is not surprising to me that he is once again waxing eloquently about Dishonest Abe.

How They Lie About Lincoln by Thomas DiLorenzo

 

[asgardshill]

Bravo! Thanks for the link.

And I'll take this opportunity to reiterate that assigning a 21st Century mindset and morality to people of the 19th Century is an occupation fraught with peril and utter fail.

 

[JW Frogen]

And I'll take this opportunity to reiterate that assigning a 21st Century mindset and morality to people of the 19th Century is an occupation fraught with peril and utter fail.

I am not so sure. For instance I kind of have General Grant's attitude when I drive, drink up and mow them down.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ahh yes I remembered correctly, You think Lincoln was a criminal. THAT is the biggest lie of all. This article is bullshit of the finest grade. The Civil War was caused not by Lincoln but by the Souther5n States. Remind us again Kevin, WHO FIRED THE FIRST SHOT? Who raised an Army6 FIRST? Who was screaming to attack whom first?

Lincoln bent over backwards trying to avoid a war, he did not even raise an army until South Carolina ATTACKED Union Forces murdering them and seizing Federal Property. And the Property was unimportant as the Southern States had already seized other Federal Property. The final straw was the unprovoked murder of Federal troops. Not to mention the calls from the South for armed rebellion.

 

[Mr. H.]

Most would agree that Lincoln is dead, but you should see it on a Saturday night.

 

[JW Frogen]

Most would agree that Lincoln is dead, .

A little historical trivia, Mark Twain started his career as a stand up comedian. His signature gag was when he used to dress up like Lincoln and lay on the stage with blood pouring out of his stove pipe hat and say "A head divided against itself can not stand."

His Mississippi tour sold out in five minutes.

 

[Mr. H.]

I love a good pun. My post is a quote from Groucho Marx LOL.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Ahh yes I remembered correctly, You think Lincoln was a criminal. THAT is the biggest lie of all. This article is bullshit of the finest grade. The Civil War was caused not by Lincoln but by the Souther5n States. Remind us again Kevin, WHO FIRED THE FIRST SHOT? Who raised an Army6 FIRST? Who was screaming to attack whom first?

Lincoln bent over backwards trying to avoid a war, he did not even raise an army until South Carolina ATTACKED Union Forces murdering them and seizing Federal Property. And the Property was unimportant as the Southern States had already seized other Federal Property. The final straw was the unprovoked murder of Federal troops. Not to mention the calls from the South for armed rebellion.

Remind us again RGS, who forced the south to fire the first shot? Lincoln bent over backwards to avoid war? Not in the least. He refused to meet with the Confederate delegates sent by Jefferson Davis to purchase all federal property in the Confederacy and pay the Confederate's portion of the national debt. Then he decided to re-stock Fort Sumter, which was located in the borders of the Confederacy, knowing full well that they were not going to allow that to happen. However, he did this intentionally because he knew they would attack and that attack would enrage people in the north and get popular sentiment on his side regarding a war against the south. Until that event the north believed the states had the right to secede and had no problem with the Confederacy doing so. As for murder of federal troops, no one died at Fort Sumter. All Union soldiers were sent back home after the battle.

 

[Ringel05]

Ahh yes I remembered correctly, You think Lincoln was a criminal. THAT is the biggest lie of all. This article is bullshit of the finest grade. The Civil War was caused not by Lincoln but by the Souther5n States. Remind us again Kevin, WHO FIRED THE FIRST SHOT? Who raised an Army6 FIRST? Who was screaming to attack whom first?

Lincoln bent over backwards trying to avoid a war, he did not even raise an army until South Carolina ATTACKED Union Forces murdering them and seizing Federal Property. And the Property was unimportant as the Southern States had already seized other Federal Property. The final straw was the unprovoked murder of Federal troops. Not to mention the calls from the South for armed rebellion.

Remind us again RGS, who forced the south to fire the first shot? Lincoln bent over backwards to avoid war? Not in the least. He refused to meet with the Confederate delegates sent by Jefferson Davis to purchase all federal property in the Confederacy and pay the Confederate's portion of the national debt. Then he decided to re-stock Fort Sumter, which was located in the borders of the Confederacy, knowing full well that they were not going to allow that to happen. However, he did this intentionally because he knew they would attack and that attack would enrage people in the north and get popular sentiment on his side regarding a war against the south. Until that event the north believed the states had the right to secede and had no problem with the Confederacy doing so. As for murder of federal troops, no one died at Fort Sumter. All Union soldiers were sent back home after the battle.

Lincoln did indeed "force the war", the why has been debated over and over but I hold with the argument that the north was more reliant on the south financially then the other way around. The north's economy would have been severly damaged if Lincoln would have let the southern states go, therefore he had no choice.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Ahh yes I remembered correctly, You think Lincoln was a criminal. THAT is the biggest lie of all. This article is bullshit of the finest grade. The Civil War was caused not by Lincoln but by the Souther5n States. Remind us again Kevin, WHO FIRED THE FIRST SHOT? Who raised an Army6 FIRST? Who was screaming to attack whom first?

Lincoln bent over backwards trying to avoid a war, he did not even raise an army until South Carolina ATTACKED Union Forces murdering them and seizing Federal Property. And the Property was unimportant as the Southern States had already seized other Federal Property. The final straw was the unprovoked murder of Federal troops. Not to mention the calls from the South for armed rebellion.

Remind us again RGS, who forced the south to fire the first shot? Lincoln bent over backwards to avoid war? Not in the least. He refused to meet with the Confederate delegates sent by Jefferson Davis to purchase all federal property in the Confederacy and pay the Confederate's portion of the national debt. Then he decided to re-stock Fort Sumter, which was located in the borders of the Confederacy, knowing full well that they were not going to allow that to happen. However, he did this intentionally because he knew they would attack and that attack would enrage people in the north and get popular sentiment on his side regarding a war against the south. Until that event the north believed the states had the right to secede and had no problem with the Confederacy doing so. As for murder of federal troops, no one died at Fort Sumter. All Union soldiers were sent back home after the battle.

Lincoln did indeed "force the war", the why has been debated over and over but I hold with the argument that the north was more reliant on the south financially then the other way around. The north's economy would have been severly damaged if Lincoln would have let the southern states go, therefore he had no choice.

Well Lincoln didn't want to lose the revenue from the southern states' taxes and tariffs, he says as much in his first inaugural address. Not to mention that the protectionist northern states didn't want to have to compete with a free trading Confederacy. That's why the mayor of New York City wanted to secede not only from the Union but from New York state to create a free trade port in the north.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The South would have been crippled financially outside of the Union. 90% of its capital was invested directly and indirectly in supporting cotton. //// Yes, Lincoln made darn sure that the South fired the first shot. Lincoln, KK, was for reconciliation provided (1) that slavery was not permitted in the territories (meaning Dred Scott was a dead case), (2) that constitutional electrol results were respected and accepted by the South, and (3) that the South respected federal property.

When the South fired on Old Glory, metaphorically spitting on George Washington and the Patriots' sacrifices, the Northen democrats went bonkers and demanded Unionism and the breaking of the South.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The South would have been crippled financially outside of the Union. 90% of its capital was invested directly and indirectly in supporting cotton. //// Yes, Lincoln made darn sure that the South fired the first shot. Lincoln, KK, was for reconciliation provided (1) that slavery was not permitted in the territories (meaning Dred Scott was a dead case), (2) that constitutional electrol results were respected and accepted by the South, and (3) that the South respected federal property.

When the South fired on Old Glory, metaphorically spitting on George Washington and the Patriots' sacrifices, the Northen democrats went bonkers and demanded Unionism and the breaking of the South.

Washington would have recognized the right of Virginia to secede from the Union considering he was a Virginian and he led the Continental Army as they fought to secede from Great Britain. The south didn't spit on anything, they upheld the American tradition of self government.

 

[Old Rocks]

The South would have been crippled financially outside of the Union. 90% of its capital was invested directly and indirectly in supporting cotton. //// Yes, Lincoln made darn sure that the South fired the first shot. Lincoln, KK, was for reconciliation provided (1) that slavery was not permitted in the territories (meaning Dred Scott was a dead case), (2) that constitutional electrol results were respected and accepted by the South, and (3) that the South respected federal property.

When the South fired on Old Glory, metaphorically spitting on George Washington and the Patriots' sacrifices, the Northen democrats went bonkers and demanded Unionism and the breaking of the South.

Washington would have recognized the right of Virginia to secede from the Union considering he was a Virginian and he led the Continental Army as they fought to secede from Great Britain. The south didn't spit on anything, they upheld the American tradition of self government.

The South sought to create a chaotic confederation of states that would have balkanized due to the very philosophy that caused them to succeed in the first place.

What Lincoln did was to save the Union, and create the US that is present today. It was neccessary, and just.

 

[jillian]

The South sought to create a chaotic confederation of states that would have balkanized due to the very philosophy that caused them to succeed in the first place.

What Lincoln did was to save the Union, and create the US that is present today. It was neccessary, and just.

Of course it was. But this thread explains so much about Kevin's insistence on not acknowledging this country's laws or the centralized federal government.

 

[lawbuff]

Hey Kevin, since a part of your username is Kennedy and the thread is about Lincoln, have you ever heard of the Kennedy-Lincoln "coincidences", pretty scary.

The main negative fact I always hear about Lincoln is the same thing as FDR, Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, and FDR interred the Japanese.

Chief Justice Taney, while he was circuit riding, heard the HC case and ruled it UNconsitutional, however, since it was not a SC decision, Lincoln ignored it.

Having toured the White House of the Confederacy in Richmond, VA., I can see that Jefferson Davis was one of the hardest working men in any government then, sometimes 16-20 hour days.

The cause of the Civil war has always been a subject of controversy, whether it was directly over slavery or not?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The South would have been crippled financially outside of the Union. 90% of its capital was invested directly and indirectly in supporting cotton. //// Yes, Lincoln made darn sure that the South fired the first shot. Lincoln, KK, was for reconciliation provided (1) that slavery was not permitted in the territories (meaning Dred Scott was a dead case), (2) that constitutional electrol results were respected and accepted by the South, and (3) that the South respected federal property.

When the South fired on Old Glory, metaphorically spitting on George Washington and the Patriots' sacrifices, the Northen democrats went bonkers and demanded Unionism and the breaking of the South.

Washington would have recognized the right of Virginia to secede from the Union considering he was a Virginian and he led the Continental Army as they fought to secede from Great Britain. The south didn't spit on anything, they upheld the American tradition of self government.

The South sought to create a chaotic confederation of states that would have balkanized due to the very philosophy that caused them to succeed in the first place.

What Lincoln did was to save the Union, and create the US that is present today. It was neccessary, and just.

Yes, Lincoln did set the stage for what has become the federal government today. However, it was neither necessary or just.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The South sought to create a chaotic confederation of states that would have balkanized due to the very philosophy that caused them to succeed in the first place.

What Lincoln did was to save the Union, and create the US that is present today. It was neccessary, and just.

Of course it was. But this thread explains so much about Kevin's insistence on not acknowledging this country's laws or the centralized federal government.

Actually it was Lincoln who ignored this country's laws. Suspending habeas corpus, shutting down opposition newspapers in the north, deporting an Ohio Congressman for speaking out against him, and issuing an arrest warrant for the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court for calling his actions unconstitutional.

 

[paperview]

Hey Kevin, since a part of your username is Kennedy and the thread is about Lincoln, have you ever heard of the Kennedy-Lincoln "coincidences", pretty scary.

The main negative fact I always hear about Lincoln is the same thing as FDR, Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, and FDR interred the Japanese.

Chief Justice Taney, while he was circuit riding, heard the HC case and ruled it UNconsitutional, however, since it was not a SC decision, Lincoln ignored it.

Having toured the White House of the Confederacy in Richmond, VA., I can see that Jefferson Davis was one of the hardest working men in any government then, sometimes 16-20 hour days.

The cause of the Civil war has always been a subject of controversy, whether it was directly over slavery or not?

One of the the things I often hear from the neo-confederates, is how brutal it was for Lincoln to suspend Habeas Corpus.

They rarely acknowledge Jeff Davis ALSO suspended Habeas Corpus.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Hey Kevin, since a part of your username is Kennedy and the thread is about Lincoln, have you ever heard of the Kennedy-Lincoln "coincidences", pretty scary.

The main negative fact I always hear about Lincoln is the same thing as FDR, Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, and FDR interred the Japanese.

Chief Justice Taney, while he was circuit riding, heard the HC case and ruled it UNconsitutional, however, since it was not a SC decision, Lincoln ignored it.

Having toured the White House of the Confederacy in Richmond, VA., I can see that Jefferson Davis was one of the hardest working men in any government then, sometimes 16-20 hour days.

The cause of the Civil war has always been a subject of controversy, whether it was directly over slavery or not?

I think Lincoln answers the question of what the Civil War was really about in his first Inaugural Address.

"In doing this there needs to be no bloodshed or violence, and there shall be none unless it be forced upon the national authority. The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere." - Abraham Lincoln

Abraham Lincoln: First Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989

In other words, Lincoln said he wouldn't invade the south so long as they continued paying their tribute to the federal government.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Hey Kevin, since a part of your username is Kennedy and the thread is about Lincoln, have you ever heard of the Kennedy-Lincoln "coincidences", pretty scary.

The main negative fact I always hear about Lincoln is the same thing as FDR, Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, and FDR interred the Japanese.

Chief Justice Taney, while he was circuit riding, heard the HC case and ruled it UNconsitutional, however, since it was not a SC decision, Lincoln ignored it.

Having toured the White House of the Confederacy in Richmond, VA., I can see that Jefferson Davis was one of the hardest working men in any government then, sometimes 16-20 hour days.

The cause of the Civil war has always been a subject of controversy, whether it was directly over slavery or not?

One of the the things I often hear from the neo-confederates, is how brutal it was for Lincoln to suspend Habeas Corpus.

They rarely acknowledge Jeff Davis ALSO suspended Habeas Corpus.

Yes, habeas corpus was suspended in the Confederacy as well. Despite the fact that it's wrong no matter the circumstances, Jefferson Davis didn't suspend habeas corpus alone. The Confederate Congress backed him up on this as well, which the Confederate and United States Constitutions require. Lincoln did not consult the Congress when suspending habeas corpus, and that is why Haney considered his action unconstitutional.