How is the boycott going?

[marsnow]

It isn't irrelevant, actually in the case of the Arab Jews, they were indeed kicked out, killed, and persecuted for absolutely no reason, whereas the "Palestinian" case is a total fabrication which came as a result of Arab aggression on the state of Israel.

Ok. What does that have to do with the appropriate American position on states in the region? We believe in separation of church and state. We should support the same in Israel and all Muslim states if we indeed support our values. Otherwise, we can ignore the region and go to mars which is a more productive enterprise.

Israel is a secular democracy which hosts 1.8 million Arabs, who an vote, and enjoy freedom of press, speech and religion, and vote like all other Israelis. Arabs, not so much.

US is on the right side.

A country called the Jewish state whose state religion is Judaism is not a secular state, whether or not it has 'secular' cities. The same standards for separation of church and state that supporters of israel have in the US should be the same exact standards in Israel. Immigration is controlled by religious authorities, marriage, etc etc. The theocracy of israel is not in the tradition of a liberal democracy no matter what they claim. The only reason it exists in that location at all is their religious attachment to that land. Israel is no good example for the separation of religion and state to the region.

 

[Roudy]

Ok. What does that have to do with the appropriate American position on states in the region? We believe in separation of church and state. We should support the same in Israel and all Muslim states if we indeed support our values. Otherwise, we can ignore the region and go to mars which is a more productive enterprise.

Israel is a secular democracy which hosts 1.8 million Arabs, who an vote, and enjoy freedom of press, speech and religion, and vote like all other Israelis. Arabs, not so much.

US is on the right side.

A country called the Jewish state whose state religion is Judaism is not a secular state, whether or not it has 'secular' cities. The same standards for separation of church and state that supporters of israel have in the US should be the same exact standards in Israel. Immigration is controlled by religious authorities, marriage, etc etc. The theocracy of israel is not in the tradition of a liberal democracy no matter what they claim. The only reason it exists in that location at all is their religious attachment to that land. Israel is no good example for the separation of religion and state to the region.

Israel is a Jewish state, just like England is a state for people who are English or descendants of, and who's official state religion is the Anglican Church. That does not make England "ruled by the church". Wow.

But if you don't believe me, look it up. Israel is considered a secular democracy.

 

[marsnow]

Israel is a secular democracy which hosts 1.8 million Arabs, who an vote, and enjoy freedom of press, speech and religion, and vote like all other Israelis. Arabs, not so much.

US is on the right side.

A country called the Jewish state whose state religion is Judaism is not a secular state, whether or not it has 'secular' cities. The same standards for separation of church and state that supporters of israel have in the US should be the same exact standards in Israel. Immigration is controlled by religious authorities, marriage, etc etc. The theocracy of israel is not in the tradition of a liberal democracy no matter what they claim. The only reason it exists in that location at all is their religious attachment to that land. Israel is no good example for the separation of religion and state to the region.

Israel is a Jewish state, just like England is a state for people who are English or descendants of, and who's official state religion is the Anglican Church. That does not make England "ruled by the church". Wow.

But if you don't believe me, look it up. Israel is considered a secular democracy.

Wow back at yah bub. If we are going to play word games, you are saying 'English' has the same connotation as 'Jewish'? Jewish is both a national identity and a religious sect, English is not. The United Kingdom is not called the Church of English state, but the British state. The Church of England does not control immigration policy. Rabbis do. In fact, even as a non-Jewish American, I could not LEGALLY marry a Jewish woman in Israel without converting and have it recognized (Which is difficult). This does not exist in the UK.

Frankly it is irrelevant. No secular state would decide to move into a region inhabited 2000 years previously but 'ancestors' for purely economic regions. Only religion explains it.

And the point is not to support 'the other side'. The point is to support no side -- and not delude ourselves into taking military actions based on the whims of a theocracy who believes God gave them land.

 

[Roudy]

A country called the Jewish state whose state religion is Judaism is not a secular state, whether or not it has 'secular' cities. The same standards for separation of church and state that supporters of israel have in the US should be the same exact standards in Israel. Immigration is controlled by religious authorities, marriage, etc etc. The theocracy of israel is not in the tradition of a liberal democracy no matter what they claim. The only reason it exists in that location at all is their religious attachment to that land. Israel is no good example for the separation of religion and state to the region.

Israel is a Jewish state, just like England is a state for people who are English or descendants of, and who's official state religion is the Anglican Church. That does not make England "ruled by the church". Wow.

But if you don't believe me, look it up. Israel is considered a secular democracy.

Wow back at yah bub. If we are going to play word games, you are saying 'English' has the same connotation as 'Jewish'? Jewish is both a national identity and a religious sect, English is not. The United Kingdom is not called the Church of English state, but the British state. The Church of England does not control immigration policy. Rabbis do. In fact, even as a non-Jewish American, I could not LEGALLY marry a Jewish woman in Israel without converting and have it recognized (Which is difficult). This does not exist in the UK.

Frankly it is irrelevant. No secular state would decide to move into a region inhabited 2000 years previously but 'ancestors' for purely economic regions. Only religion explains it.

And the point is not to support 'the other side'. The point is to support no side -- and not delude ourselves into taking military actions based on the whims of a theocracy who believes God gave them land.

Rabbis control immigration policy in Israel? Ha ha ha. OMG....You are ignorant beyond belief, you don't even know the difference between England and the United Kingdom.

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is, instead of shoving your foot in it, and provide evidence for your claims, instead of rambling like a mental midget.

 

[aris2chat]

First, since you don't support a war with Iran -- and Israeli backers support one, any American including you has a right to be extremely and vociferously critical of Israel in the name of US interests since the only reason to go to war with them over the bomb is Israel, and possibly Gulf oil.

Regarding other conflicts in the Middle East, first remember, the US has been fighting in the region for 10 years on our own choosing - so its hard to be righteous about others fighting. (yes, bomb al qaeda to stone age. Iraq is not al qaeda) BUT of course I oppose all fighting in the name of religion. Mosque and State should be separated. But Temple and State together, of course, no one should question that ever.

There are plenty of people in the U.S. regardless of their religion who don't want to see war in Iran. They realize that the Iranian people are not the ones causing the trouble, but the crazy fanatical leaders of that country. Forget about the U.S. being involved in the Middle East for ten years. Go further back and tell us how people in the Middle East and the rest of the Muslim world have been faring if they are non Muslims or Muslims of different sects?

Non muslims were disadvantaged but Jews and Christians were allowed -- all other non Abrahamic sects were removed (see Bahai's). In fact Jews in many cases did better than Christians in Muslim societies (see Turkey, in the Armenian genocide Jewish neighborhoods were protected due to service to the Sultan). Mosque and state should be separated so that these fellow human beings can move on. Temple and state should also be separated. That should be the American position on both sides.

For Israel it is more difficult, identity of a people and religion as jews are intertwined since Issac (Israel).

 

[marsnow]

Israel is a Jewish state, just like England is a state for people who are English or descendants of, and who's official state religion is the Anglican Church. That does not make England "ruled by the church". Wow.

But if you don't believe me, look it up. Israel is considered a secular democracy.

Wow back at yah bub. If we are going to play word games, you are saying 'English' has the same connotation as 'Jewish'? Jewish is both a national identity and a religious sect, English is not. The United Kingdom is not called the Church of English state, but the British state. The Church of England does not control immigration policy. Rabbis do. In fact, even as a non-Jewish American, I could not LEGALLY marry a Jewish woman in Israel without converting and have it recognized (Which is difficult). This does not exist in the UK.

Frankly it is irrelevant. No secular state would decide to move into a region inhabited 2000 years previously but 'ancestors' for purely economic regions. Only religion explains it.

And the point is not to support 'the other side'. The point is to support no side -- and not delude ourselves into taking military actions based on the whims of a theocracy who believes God gave them land.

Rabbis control immigration policy in Israel? Ha ha ha. OMG....You are ignorant beyond belief, you don't even know the difference between England and the United Kingdom.

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is, instead of shoving your foot in it, and provide evidence for your claims, instead of rambling like a mental midget.

You were the one who claimed English as a reference point -- I clearly stated UK was British but your interest in small discrepancies is a distraction. Rabbis in Israel DO determine who is Jewish and hence eligible for Aliyah (ie immigration to Israel) -- please see the process undergone to determine eligibility of Ethiopian Jews. It is logically inept to think that Israel exists for any reason other than the religion of Judaism regardless of the additional ethnic characteristics that have been ascribed to that identity over the centuries.

Your Spartan influence and interest in violence is clouding your otherwise pristine mind.

 

[Kondor3]

In the narrow context of Church (Temple) and State...

Israel is a middle-ground sort of polity...

It is a Judaism-centric secular democracy...

Created and intended primarily to benefit Jews (practicing, lapsed and non-believing of Jewish ancestry), it is not ruled by the Temple, and is more tolerant of diversity of religion than many of its Islam-dominated neighbor-countries...

 

[montelatici]

In the narrow context of Church (Temple) and State...

Israel is a middle-ground sort of polity...

It is a Judaism-centric secular democracy...

Created and intended primarily to benefit Jews (practicing, lapsed and non-believing of Jewish ancestry), it is not ruled by the Temple, and is more tolerant of diversity of religion than many of its Islam-dominated neighbor-countries...

"It is a Judaism-centric secular democracy..."

Now that's what they call an oxymoron!

 

[marsnow]

In the narrow context of Church (Temple) and State...

Israel is a middle-ground sort of polity...

It is a Judaism-centric secular democracy...

Created and intended primarily to benefit Jews (practicing, lapsed and non-believing of Jewish ancestry), it is not ruled by the Temple, and is more tolerant of diversity of religion than many of its Islam-dominated neighbor-countries...

It is not a liberal secular democracy. It is a secular Jewish quasi Judaic demo-theocracy with some minority citizens not of the dominant religion. Or something.

Marriage Information | Embassy of the United States

Civil Marriage:

Israeli law generally only permits religious leaders to perform marriage ceremonies and rarely permits civil marriages. Diplomatic officials from some countries are permitted to perform ceremonies in Israel. The United States is not one of those countries.

Mixed Marriages:

With very few exceptions, Israeli civil law does not permit marriages between Jews and non-Jews within the state of Israel. The Israeli government will recognize marriages performed between Israeli Jewish citizens and non-Jews that are performed outside of Israel. Israeli law does permit marriages in Israel between converts.

Religious requirements to prove Jewishness and make yourself eligible includes requirement of certification by a Rabbi (not some secular authority)
Documents needed for Aliyah - Guided Aliyah from within Israel.

 

[Kondor3]

In the narrow context of Church (Temple) and State...

Israel is a middle-ground sort of polity...

It is a Judaism-centric secular democracy...

Created and intended primarily to benefit Jews (practicing, lapsed and non-believing of Jewish ancestry), it is not ruled by the Temple, and is more tolerant of diversity of religion than many of its Islam-dominated neighbor-countries...

"It is a Judaism-centric secular democracy..."

Now that's what they call an oxymoron!

Merely an expression of shades and degrees and permutations rather than fixating on black-and-white absolutes...

Flexibility of language rather than rigidity, yet entirely understandable, and accurate...

 

[marsnow]

In the narrow context of Church (Temple) and State...

Israel is a middle-ground sort of polity...

It is a Judaism-centric secular democracy...

Created and intended primarily to benefit Jews (practicing, lapsed and non-believing of Jewish ancestry), it is not ruled by the Temple, and is more tolerant of diversity of religion than many of its Islam-dominated neighbor-countries...

"It is a Judaism-centric secular democracy..."

Now that's what they call an oxymoron!

Merely an expression of shades and degrees and permutations rather than fixating on black-and-white absolutes...

Flexibility of language rather than rigidity, yet entirely understandable, and accurate...

Except your nuanced thinking is not allowed on this topic. My opinions and thoughts mean that I am committing thought crimes against the idea that the sky is blue and not black. I am called an antisemite even though all I want is the liberation of these human beings from this horrible label that tortures them. Well then let's use black and white language: Israel. is. a. theocracy. You do not move back to land your ancestors owned 2000 years ago in the middle of hostile people based on a secular ideology.

 

[Kondor3]

"It is a Judaism-centric secular democracy..."

Now that's what they call an oxymoron!

Merely an expression of shades and degrees and permutations rather than fixating on black-and-white absolutes...

Flexibility of language rather than rigidity, yet entirely understandable, and accurate...

Except your nuanced thinking is not allowed on this topic. My opinions and thoughts mean that I am committing thought crimes against the idea that the sky is blue and not black. I am called an antisemite even though all I want is the liberation of these human beings from this horrible label that tortures them. Well then let's use black and white language: Israel. is. a. theocracy. You do not move back to land your ancestors owned 2000 years ago in the middle of hostile people based on a secular ideology.

The motivation for the Jews' Reconquista of the Holy Land is one thing.

The political mechanisms by which they govern themselves are quite another.

Israel is not a theocracy.

 

[marsnow]

Merely an expression of shades and degrees and permutations rather than fixating on black-and-white absolutes...

Flexibility of language rather than rigidity, yet entirely understandable, and accurate...

Except your nuanced thinking is not allowed on this topic. My opinions and thoughts mean that I am committing thought crimes against the idea that the sky is blue and not black. I am called an antisemite even though all I want is the liberation of these human beings from this horrible label that tortures them. Well then let's use black and white language: Israel. is. a. theocracy. You do not move back to land your ancestors owned 2000 years ago in the middle of hostile people based on a secular ideology.

The motivation for the Jews' Reconquista of the Holy Land is one thing.

The political mechanisms by which they live appear to be quite another.

Israel is not a theocracy.

Iran is a theocracy that also uses democratic processes, but it still has religion as a supreme guide to its state. Israel is the same. If Iran is a theocracy, so is Israel.

 

[Kondor3]

Except your nuanced thinking is not allowed on this topic. My opinions and thoughts mean that I am committing thought crimes against the idea that the sky is blue and not black. I am called an antisemite even though all I want is the liberation of these human beings from this horrible label that tortures them. Well then let's use black and white language: Israel. is. a. theocracy. You do not move back to land your ancestors owned 2000 years ago in the middle of hostile people based on a secular ideology.

The motivation for the Jews' Reconquista of the Holy Land is one thing.

The political mechanisms by which they live appear to be quite another.

Israel is not a theocracy.

Iran is a theocracy that also uses democratic processes, but it still has religion as a supreme guide to its state. Israel is the same. If Iran is a theocracy, so is Israel.

Iran's Supreme Council can dissolve the government at will.

Israel's Rabbinic Council has no such power.

Failed analogy.

 

[toastman]

Except your nuanced thinking is not allowed on this topic. My opinions and thoughts mean that I am committing thought crimes against the idea that the sky is blue and not black. I am called an antisemite even though all I want is the liberation of these human beings from this horrible label that tortures them. Well then let's use black and white language: Israel. is. a. theocracy. You do not move back to land your ancestors owned 2000 years ago in the middle of hostile people based on a secular ideology.

The motivation for the Jews' Reconquista of the Holy Land is one thing.

The political mechanisms by which they live appear to be quite another.

Israel is not a theocracy.

Iran is a theocracy that also uses democratic processes, but it still has religion as a supreme guide to its state. Israel is the same. If Iran is a theocracy, so is Israel.

Absolutely false.

What Countries use the Theocracy in todays world
Also, look closely at the definition if theocracy and you will see that it doesn't apply to Israel.

 

[marsnow]

The motivation for the Jews' Reconquista of the Holy Land is one thing.

The political mechanisms by which they live appear to be quite another.

Israel is not a theocracy.

Iran is a theocracy that also uses democratic processes, but it still has religion as a supreme guide to its state. Israel is the same. If Iran is a theocracy, so is Israel.

Iran's Supreme Council can dissolve the government at will.

Israel's Rabbinic Council has no such power.

Failed analogy.

Israel is a theocracy since everyone who criticizes israel is anti-semitic.

Separate temple and state. Goodbye.

 

[Kondor3]

Iran is a theocracy that also uses democratic processes, but it still has religion as a supreme guide to its state. Israel is the same. If Iran is a theocracy, so is Israel.

Iran's Supreme Council can dissolve the government at will.

Israel's Rabbinic Council has no such power.

Failed analogy.

Israel is a theocracy since everyone who criticizes israel is anti-semitic.

Separate temple and state. Goodbye.

Final Jeopardy..

Is that your final answer?

 

[montelatici]

Of course Israel is a theocracy, I can't believe the Israel Firsters even argue the point. The Jews believe their God gave them the land FFS.

 

[Kondor3]

Of course Israel is a theocracy, I can't believe the Israel Firsters even argue the point. The Jews believe their God gave them the land FFS.

The mark of a Theocracy is the various political mechanisms by which they govern themselves, not the belief-system they practice nor their historical religious affiliation nor even the motivational basis by which they created (or re-created) their State, but the governing mechanisms themselves.

Until you can demonstrate effective supreme control of the State by the Church (Temple), your accusation is seed falling upon rocky ground.

 

[montelatici]

Supreme control as to who is a citizen is the supreme control in any state. Forget the legacy citizenship of the few Christians and Muslims and their offspring that were not ethnically cleansed.