How is it Congress can have a chaplain....

[Rustic]

Odd that a secular organization like a public school should find a secular holiday like Christmas so objectionable.

Christmas is now just a holiday for most, and the stores love it, but she said its not a parochial school, so its secular, I agree with the OP in her stance that we should not have Chaplin's in Congress.

That's not what I said, Penelope. I just questioned the double standard.

You are right, you didn't say that. I say get rid of the Chaplin, I should clarify , and do not replace him with an Evan.

I would go along with that, morality does not exist in the federal government/deep state. We should not pay any of our federal politicians. In fact there should be single term limits and everyone has to have a real job to represent this country.

 

[Tresha91203]

.......

I don't care if the House and Senate have a chaplain, or if they begin each session prostrating before Gozer the Destructor. What I want to know is how the House and Senate have been able to get away with praying and paying a man of the cloth since 17-something, when the Pre-K at one of our local elementary schools, which is funded entirely by Federal grants, could not decorate with so much as a Christmas tree or Santa or stocking, or participate in the Christmas parties that the rest of the school were involved in. All because the Pre-K was funded by a Federal Grant.

I would appreciate a serious answer to that. Every time I hear about the chaplain for Congress I think of those poor Pre-K kids with their window covered over so they wouldn't see all the other kids celebrating Christmas. True story.


In a reversal, Speaker Ryan says the House chaplain will remain in his post

Ah, you have posed the question that has no answer. Well done.

I do that all the time, hope you get better results.

I have two contenders so far: What do you think of them?
-Misinterpretation of the Federal grant restrictions by an overly cautious Paper Pusher in Augusta, or
-None of this banning religion in Federally funded programs comes from the Feds; it is all a function of the Courts.

I bet it all stems from litigation or insurance against litigation.

Litigation because the school is mixing religion and government? If there was an overly cautious Paper Pusher in Augusta who made this decision for our 4 year olds, I'm sure you're right--that is exactly why it was done that way. Of course, no one in our community would sue. It would have to be someone from away, and we're so small that even people from away rarely know what is going on here.

We are a sue-happy country. Anyone can sue for any reason, and more and more they do. It is expensive to defend in court against a frivolous lawsuit by an overly sensitive drama llama or lottery lawsuit seeker. It's probably just cheaper and easier to ban or claim zero tolerance.

 

[Pogo]

The hypocrites in government say a prayer before sessions, erect a Christmas tree on public property and sometimes they swear on a Bible. Ordinary people would be sued by the ACLU for having a Christmas tree in a public square or expelled from school for saying a prayer or carrying a Bible. That's how screwed up things have gotten during half a century of mostly democrat administrations and chickenshit republicans.

ACLU ought to be tarred, feathered, and rode out on a rail when they show up in a town.

Inasmuch as the CL stands for "civil liberties", doesn't that speak volumes about authoritarianism as well as "professional trolls".

And the same poster who had to be edumacated on the First Amendment, about which the existence thereof he is powerless to do anything. Quelle surprise.

 

[Rustic]

No, I do not think you are lying but as a taxpayer I do not want my tax dollars fully funding a daycare.

My understanding is that it is a Pre-K, not a daycare. I realize sometimes they have extended hours that turn them into defacto daycares, but I have been told it was a Pre-K program.
And why would you not want your tax dollars funding a daycare, even if that were the case? Having children safely housed with professionals in charge so that parents can afford to go to work is a good thing in my book. Nowhere near enough of it,imo. If there were a whole lot more of them, you would see the welfare rolls REALLY dwindle. Trust me on that.

Because I know a couple daycare owners and they get to write off everything, and didn't we just give a huge tax benefit of 6 grand per child a year? A pre k program is the same as a daycare. What is the difference? Most of our prop tax is going to schools.

You're way beyond me, Penelope. I just think, as someone who used to be a single mom struggling to pay for daycare so I could work to support us and giving the daycare 1/3 of my take home pay, that a lot of welfare moms have figured it all out and it pays to stay home if there aren't affordable daycare programs. A pre-K program is not a daycare in that a pre-K is structured pretty much the way Kindergarten used to be in my day. Now they want kids to know all that BEFORE they enter Kindergarten. Daycares just give 'em toys, lunch and a nap.

Only a fool thinks tax money goes to anybody but the career politicians and their government... The government has not been for the people and of the people for a very long time now.

 

[evenflow1969]

I don't care if the House and Senate have a chaplain, or if they begin each session prostrating before Gozer the Destructor. What I want to know is how the House and Senate have been able to get away with praying and paying a man of the cloth since 17-something, when the Pre-K at one of our local elementary schools, which is funded entirely by Federal grants, could not decorate with so much as a Christmas tree or Santa or stocking, or participate in the Christmas parties that the rest of the school were involved in. All because the Pre-K was funded by a Federal Grant.

I would appreciate a serious answer to that. Every time I hear about the chaplain for Congress I think of those poor Pre-K kids with their window covered over so they wouldn't see all the other kids celebrating Christmas. True story.


In a reversal, Speaker Ryan says the House chaplain will remain in his post

Chaplains are typicaly schooled in performing ceremonies of several faiths. I would asume that it would work simimilar to chaplains in the military any way. I will admit this to be a guess for congressional chaplins, I have never met one. While I was in the military it was my experience that the chaplins did help with the moral of the troops and troops of several faiths. I can see where there would be times that congress would deal with similar feeling stresses as the military. If this helps them make calmer decisions it may be money well spent. When is the last time you saw a chaplin driving a rolls royce? How much can the person be making?

 

[Penelope]

No, I do not think you are lying but as a taxpayer I do not want my tax dollars fully funding a daycare.

My understanding is that it is a Pre-K, not a daycare. I realize sometimes they have extended hours that turn them into defacto daycares, but I have been told it was a Pre-K program.
And why would you not want your tax dollars funding a daycare, even if that were the case? Having children safely housed with professionals in charge so that parents can afford to go to work is a good thing in my book. Nowhere near enough of it,imo. If there were a whole lot more of them, you would see the welfare rolls REALLY dwindle. Trust me on that.

Because I know a couple daycare owners and they get to write off everything, and didn't we just give a huge tax benefit of 6 grand per child a year? A pre k program is the same as a daycare. What is the difference? Most of our prop tax is going to schools.

You're way beyond me, Penelope. I just think, as someone who used to be a single mom struggling to pay for daycare so I could work to support us and giving the daycare 1/3 of my take home pay, that a lot of welfare moms have figured it all out and it pays to stay home if there aren't affordable daycare programs. A pre-K program is not a daycare in that a pre-K is structured pretty much the way Kindergarten used to be in my day. Now they want kids to know all that BEFORE they enter Kindergarten. Daycares just give 'em toys, lunch and a nap.

Have you seen the new daycares, they are like pre K when they get up to 4 year old, they are grouped according to age. I am not saying do not give tax credits to the parents but to fully fund the pre K I don't buy it. Like I said I know of two daycare providers who have up to 6 kids. They write off everything, and to be frank they are like glorified babysitters. If I were to send my kids to daycare or pre K, I'd want a program and not someone who is just watching the kids and letting them play, feed them and put them down for a nap.

I'm not sure if this is a private pre k in an elementary school like they have at at a hosp. or workplace. I have no issue with subsidizing daycare for those according to the income, I do have a problem with small daycare providers.

 

[Pogo]

Proposed 28th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States:

"Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States which does not also equally apply to all members of Congress."

One hopes the reverse would not follow. I'd like to vote myself a raise whenever I feel like it.

 

[Rustic]

No, I do not think you are lying but as a taxpayer I do not want my tax dollars fully funding a daycare.

My understanding is that it is a Pre-K, not a daycare. I realize sometimes they have extended hours that turn them into defacto daycares, but I have been told it was a Pre-K program.
And why would you not want your tax dollars funding a daycare, even if that were the case? Having children safely housed with professionals in charge so that parents can afford to go to work is a good thing in my book. Nowhere near enough of it,imo. If there were a whole lot more of them, you would see the welfare rolls REALLY dwindle. Trust me on that.

Because I know a couple daycare owners and they get to write off everything, and didn't we just give a huge tax benefit of 6 grand per child a year? A pre k program is the same as a daycare. What is the difference? Most of our prop tax is going to schools.

You're way beyond me, Penelope. I just think, as someone who used to be a single mom struggling to pay for daycare so I could work to support us and giving the daycare 1/3 of my take home pay, that a lot of welfare moms have figured it all out and it pays to stay home if there aren't affordable daycare programs. A pre-K program is not a daycare in that a pre-K is structured pretty much the way Kindergarten used to be in my day. Now they want kids to know all that BEFORE they enter Kindergarten. Daycares just give 'em toys, lunch and a nap.

Have you seen the new daycares, they are like pre K when they get up to 4 year old, they are grouped according to age. I am not saying do not give tax credits to the parents but to fully fund the pre K I don't buy it. Like I said I know of two daycare providers who have up to 6 kids. They write off everything, and to be frank they are like glorified babysitters. If I were to send my kids to daycare or pre K, I'd want a program and not someone who is just watching the kids and letting them play, feed them and put them down for a nap.

I'm not sure if this is a private pre k in an elementary school like they have at at a hosp. or workplace. I have no issue with subsidizing daycare for those according to the income, I do have a problem with small daycare providers.

The government does not deserve any more tax money...
Deductions of all types should be encouraged.

 

[Rustic]

Proposed 28th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States:

"Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States which does not also equally apply to all members of Congress."

One hopes the reverse would not follow. I'd like to vote myself a raise whenever I feel like it.

A collective is all bad news...

 

[2aguy]

I don't care if the House and Senate have a chaplain, or if they begin each session prostrating before Gozer the Destructor. What I want to know is how the House and Senate have been able to get away with praying and paying a man of the cloth since 17-something, when the Pre-K at one of our local elementary schools, which is funded entirely by Federal grants, could not decorate with so much as a Christmas tree or Santa or stocking, or participate in the Christmas parties that the rest of the school were involved in. All because the Pre-K was funded by a Federal Grant.

I would appreciate a serious answer to that. Every time I hear about the chaplain for Congress I think of those poor Pre-K kids with their window covered over so they wouldn't see all the other kids celebrating Christmas. True story.


In a reversal, Speaker Ryan says the House chaplain will remain in his post

There is a myth that there is a separation of church and state...there isn't. The left, who generally hate Thomas Jefferson, use him and a private letter he sent to create the lie that there is a ban on having religious activity in our government.

 

[OldLady]

they pay him??!!!
that's a waste of tax $$$$$$
get rid of that crap right now.....
Chaplain of the United States House of Representatives - Wikipedia
https://chaplain.house.gov/chaplaincy/ChaplainHistoryCRS.pdf
goddamn!! get rid of this crap now!!!
Wasteful spending: Congress pays clergy $66,000/hour to pray

Salary is $170,000 a year, is what I heard. Not outside the norm on the beltway.
My beef isn't about the money. Well, not THAT money.
Why can't 4 year olds in a Federally funded preschool program celebrate Christmas while these jokers in Washington are praying it up every time they open a session? I saw the Chaplain opening an awards ceremony for some Puerto Rican military vets once, too--first time I knew they were getting away with this. They're busy folks, blessing all the Great Works of the elected, hey?

the $$$$$ is my biggest beef
but you have a great point on the Christmas deal

Christmas decorations can be seen as a secular tradition, which it certainly is in this culture, as well as a religious one. The hypothetial classroom or other venue that puts up trees, lights, balls etc are actually following more of a pagan tradition than an organized religion.

But the manger scenes, though!

The manger scenes, indeed. That's mythology right there, certainly a legitimate education topic and a teachable moment to use a familiar icon to explore the similar mythologies of Horus and Attis and Krishna et al, to demonstrate the common threads in the world and offer perspective. You know --- all those histories you and I weren't taught and had to go find out for ourselves.

And it nicely seques to a lesson on how we put up lights on our houses as sympathetic magic to bring the sunlight back, and how we decorate with evergreens to symbolize the promise of the returning Spring.

All very cool beans; I remember how thrilled I was to learn all that. Opened my mind, as they say.
Once when I used the term "other creation myths" in an essay topic to refer to Adam and Eve, boy did I get a scolding, though. The world isn't ready for us, Pogo.

 

[Pogo]

I don't care if the House and Senate have a chaplain, or if they begin each session prostrating before Gozer the Destructor. What I want to know is how the House and Senate have been able to get away with praying and paying a man of the cloth since 17-something, when the Pre-K at one of our local elementary schools, which is funded entirely by Federal grants, could not decorate with so much as a Christmas tree or Santa or stocking, or participate in the Christmas parties that the rest of the school were involved in. All because the Pre-K was funded by a Federal Grant.

I would appreciate a serious answer to that. Every time I hear about the chaplain for Congress I think of those poor Pre-K kids with their window covered over so they wouldn't see all the other kids celebrating Christmas. True story.


In a reversal, Speaker Ryan says the House chaplain will remain in his post

There is a myth that there is a separation of church and state...there isn't. The left, who generally hate Thomas Jefferson, use him and a private letter he sent to create the lie that there is a ban on having religious activity in our government.

If there were actually no separation between church and state, we'd be in a theocracy. Can't boil it down any simpler than that.

The Liberalism that established this country and wrote its Constitution was specifically wresting governmental power AWAY FROM the First and Second Estates, those being the Clergy and the Aristocracy. That's why we didn't set up "kings" with "divine rights" sanctioned by the Church, which is the way Europe had operated up until then. Indeed separating the Church (and the "royalty" game) from the State was the whole POINT.

 

[OldLady]

I don't care if the House and Senate have a chaplain, or if they begin each session prostrating before Gozer the Destructor. What I want to know is how the House and Senate have been able to get away with praying and paying a man of the cloth since 17-something, when the Pre-K at one of our local elementary schools, which is funded entirely by Federal grants, could not decorate with so much as a Christmas tree or Santa or stocking, or participate in the Christmas parties that the rest of the school were involved in. All because the Pre-K was funded by a Federal Grant.

I would appreciate a serious answer to that. Every time I hear about the chaplain for Congress I think of those poor Pre-K kids with their window covered over so they wouldn't see all the other kids celebrating Christmas. True story.


In a reversal, Speaker Ryan says the House chaplain will remain in his post

There is a myth that there is a separation of church and state...there isn't. The left, who generally hate Thomas Jefferson, use him and a private letter he sent to create the lie that there is a ban on having religious activity in our government.

I love Thomas Jefferson. Smart man.

 

[Pogo]

Salary is $170,000 a year, is what I heard. Not outside the norm on the beltway.
My beef isn't about the money. Well, not THAT money.
Why can't 4 year olds in a Federally funded preschool program celebrate Christmas while these jokers in Washington are praying it up every time they open a session? I saw the Chaplain opening an awards ceremony for some Puerto Rican military vets once, too--first time I knew they were getting away with this. They're busy folks, blessing all the Great Works of the elected, hey?

the $$$$$ is my biggest beef
but you have a great point on the Christmas deal

Christmas decorations can be seen as a secular tradition, which it certainly is in this culture, as well as a religious one. The hypothetial classroom or other venue that puts up trees, lights, balls etc are actually following more of a pagan tradition than an organized religion.

But the manger scenes, though!

The manger scenes, indeed. That's mythology right there, certainly a legitimate education topic and a teachable moment to use a familiar icon to explore the similar mythologies of Horus and Attis and Krishna et al, to demonstrate the common threads in the world and offer perspective. You know --- all those histories you and I weren't taught and had to go find out for ourselves.

And it nicely seques to a lesson on how we put up lights on our houses as sympathetic magic to bring the sunlight back, and how we decorate with evergreens to symbolize the promise of the returning Spring.

All very cool beans; I remember how thrilled I was to learn all that. Opened my mind, as they say.
Once when I used the term "other creation myths" in an essay topic to refer to Adam and Eve, boy did I get a scolding, though. The world isn't ready for us, Pogo.

That's why I rail against robotic mob mentality. It by definition abhors the concept of the Open Mind.

 

[OldLady]

I don't care if the House and Senate have a chaplain, or if they begin each session prostrating before Gozer the Destructor. What I want to know is how the House and Senate have been able to get away with praying and paying a man of the cloth since 17-something, when the Pre-K at one of our local elementary schools, which is funded entirely by Federal grants, could not decorate with so much as a Christmas tree or Santa or stocking, or participate in the Christmas parties that the rest of the school were involved in. All because the Pre-K was funded by a Federal Grant.

I would appreciate a serious answer to that. Every time I hear about the chaplain for Congress I think of those poor Pre-K kids with their window covered over so they wouldn't see all the other kids celebrating Christmas. True story.


In a reversal, Speaker Ryan says the House chaplain will remain in his post

Chaplains are typicaly schooled in performing ceremonies of several faiths. I would asume that it would work simimilar to chaplains in the military any way. I will admit this to be a guess for congressional chaplins, I have never met one. While I was in the military it was my experience that the chaplins did help with the moral of the troops and troops of several faiths. I can see where there would be times that congress would deal with similar feeling stresses as the military. If this helps them make calmer decisions it may be money well spent. When is the last time you saw a chaplin driving a rolls royce? How much can the person be making?

I'm sure there are people who appreciate the Congressional chaplains, just as many appreciate the military chaplains. I have nothing against them. I just wondered why Congress can have one leading prayer when federally funded programs can't even whisper Christmas.

 

[harmonica]

I don't care if the House and Senate have a chaplain, or if they begin each session prostrating before Gozer the Destructor. What I want to know is how the House and Senate have been able to get away with praying and paying a man of the cloth since 17-something, when the Pre-K at one of our local elementary schools, which is funded entirely by Federal grants, could not decorate with so much as a Christmas tree or Santa or stocking, or participate in the Christmas parties that the rest of the school were involved in. All because the Pre-K was funded by a Federal Grant.

I would appreciate a serious answer to that. Every time I hear about the chaplain for Congress I think of those poor Pre-K kids with their window covered over so they wouldn't see all the other kids celebrating Christmas. True story.


In a reversal, Speaker Ryan says the House chaplain will remain in his post

Chaplains are typicaly schooled in performing ceremonies of several faiths. I would asume that it would work simimilar to chaplains in the military any way. I will admit this to be a guess for congressional chaplins, I have never met one. While I was in the military it was my experience that the chaplins did help with the moral of the troops and troops of several faiths. I can see where there would be times that congress would deal with similar feeling stresses as the military. If this helps them make calmer decisions it may be money well spent. When is the last time you saw a chaplin driving a rolls royce? How much can the person be making?

calmer decisions??? similar stresses??!! bullshit..it's a waste of money--plain and simple-- and no denying that
the military is MUCH different than congress!!!
read post # 2 here with $$$$ wasted on chaplains:
How is it Congress can have a chaplain....
1. most of the military make much less $$$ than congress/House
How Much Do Federal Politicians and Cabinet Members Get Paid?
2.military very young mostly
3. we didn't have chaplains at the shooting range/in our barracks/etc saying prayers
4. the taxpayers shouldn't be paying for chaplains in congress--they get enough free stuff--including helathcare
4. the military has a lot on base housing--when I was in a lot didn't have cars--especially overseas/on ship [ ]/etc....so there is a need to have chaplains on base whereas the politicians do not live on bases
5. the politicians do not go to war/combat/etc!!!!! where as that's what the military does--and will ''need'' chaplains there
etc etc

 

[harmonica]

I don't care if the House and Senate have a chaplain, or if they begin each session prostrating before Gozer the Destructor. What I want to know is how the House and Senate have been able to get away with praying and paying a man of the cloth since 17-something, when the Pre-K at one of our local elementary schools, which is funded entirely by Federal grants, could not decorate with so much as a Christmas tree or Santa or stocking, or participate in the Christmas parties that the rest of the school were involved in. All because the Pre-K was funded by a Federal Grant.

I would appreciate a serious answer to that. Every time I hear about the chaplain for Congress I think of those poor Pre-K kids with their window covered over so they wouldn't see all the other kids celebrating Christmas. True story.


In a reversal, Speaker Ryan says the House chaplain will remain in his post

Chaplains are typicaly schooled in performing ceremonies of several faiths. I would asume that it would work simimilar to chaplains in the military any way. I will admit this to be a guess for congressional chaplins, I have never met one. While I was in the military it was my experience that the chaplins did help with the moral of the troops and troops of several faiths. I can see where there would be times that congress would deal with similar feeling stresses as the military. If this helps them make calmer decisions it may be money well spent. When is the last time you saw a chaplin driving a rolls royce? How much can the person be making?

I'm sure there are people who appreciate the Congressional chaplains, just as many appreciate the military chaplains. I have nothing against them. I just wondered why Congress can have one leading prayer when federally funded programs can't even whisper Christmas.

sure--appreciate--but it's still a waste of $$$$$$ big time as I've given many reasons in many posts
...don't they have their own priests/chaplains/reverends/etc?? in their own congregations/churches?

 

[Pogo]

I don't care if the House and Senate have a chaplain, or if they begin each session prostrating before Gozer the Destructor. What I want to know is how the House and Senate have been able to get away with praying and paying a man of the cloth since 17-something, when the Pre-K at one of our local elementary schools, which is funded entirely by Federal grants, could not decorate with so much as a Christmas tree or Santa or stocking, or participate in the Christmas parties that the rest of the school were involved in. All because the Pre-K was funded by a Federal Grant.

I would appreciate a serious answer to that. Every time I hear about the chaplain for Congress I think of those poor Pre-K kids with their window covered over so they wouldn't see all the other kids celebrating Christmas. True story.


In a reversal, Speaker Ryan says the House chaplain will remain in his post

Chaplains are typicaly schooled in performing ceremonies of several faiths. I would asume that it would work simimilar to chaplains in the military any way. I will admit this to be a guess for congressional chaplins, I have never met one. While I was in the military it was my experience that the chaplins did help with the moral of the troops and troops of several faiths. I can see where there would be times that congress would deal with similar feeling stresses as the military. If this helps them make calmer decisions it may be money well spent. When is the last time you saw a chaplin driving a rolls royce? How much can the person be making?

I'm sure there are people who appreciate the Congressional chaplains, just as many appreciate the military chaplains. I have nothing against them. I just wondered why Congress can have one leading prayer when federally funded programs can't even whisper Christmas.

If they by mutual assent want a chaplain for what is supposed to be a completely secular process, they're certainly free to do so but it should be a volunteer position and taxpayers should not be on the hook.

>> The Senate Chaplain has a staff that includes a Chief-of-Staff, Director of Communications, and Executive Assistant,[12][13] and works with a volunteer liaison in each Senate office.[2] While the annual salary for the first Senate Chaplains was $500,[14] the salary is now set as a Level IV position in the Executive Schedule, which is $155,500.00 in 2011.[1] The total annual budget for the office, including salaries and expenses, is $415,000 as of 2011.[15][16] <<​

$415k, and that's just for the Senate. Hell I'll go in there and give 'em a piece of my mind for HALF that.

"Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom?

In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation." --- James Madison (ibid)

And Wiki doesn't report it but the House Chaplain is paid $172,500 a year. I make it, with one of the figures seven years old, at least $328,000 of your tax dollars at work every year for those two salaries, not including staffs. For actions that have nothing to do with the business of Congress, at all.

Got that? You babble some hocus pocus words in front of a few hundred people a few times a year, make six figures, and for that you need a STAFF.

That must make the waitress serving tables all day to barely feed her kids feel proud.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I don't care if the House and Senate have a chaplain, or if they begin each session prostrating before Gozer the Destructor. What I want to know is how the House and Senate have been able to get away with praying and paying a man of the cloth since 17-something, when the Pre-K at one of our local elementary schools, which is funded entirely by Federal grants, could not decorate with so much as a Christmas tree or Santa or stocking, or participate in the Christmas parties that the rest of the school were involved in. All because the Pre-K was funded by a Federal Grant.

I would appreciate a serious answer to that. Every time I hear about the chaplain for Congress I think of those poor Pre-K kids with their window covered over so they wouldn't see all the other kids celebrating Christmas. True story.


In a reversal, Speaker Ryan says the House chaplain will remain in his post

Seeking to advance specific religious dogma absent a secular intent where government is excessively entangled in the promotion of that religion would be an Establishment Clause violation in any government entity, not just schools.

As for the Constitutionality of a chaplain opening legislative sessions with a prayer, the Supreme Court created a ‘set aside’ or ‘carve out’ of the First Amendment where such a practice does not violate the Establishment Clause because it’s predicated on the long-standing historical tradition of legislative chaplains (see Marsh v. Chambers (1983)).

 

[OldLady]

I don't care if the House and Senate have a chaplain, or if they begin each session prostrating before Gozer the Destructor. What I want to know is how the House and Senate have been able to get away with praying and paying a man of the cloth since 17-something, when the Pre-K at one of our local elementary schools, which is funded entirely by Federal grants, could not decorate with so much as a Christmas tree or Santa or stocking, or participate in the Christmas parties that the rest of the school were involved in. All because the Pre-K was funded by a Federal Grant.

I would appreciate a serious answer to that. Every time I hear about the chaplain for Congress I think of those poor Pre-K kids with their window covered over so they wouldn't see all the other kids celebrating Christmas. True story.


In a reversal, Speaker Ryan says the House chaplain will remain in his post

Chaplains are typicaly schooled in performing ceremonies of several faiths. I would asume that it would work simimilar to chaplains in the military any way. I will admit this to be a guess for congressional chaplins, I have never met one. While I was in the military it was my experience that the chaplins did help with the moral of the troops and troops of several faiths. I can see where there would be times that congress would deal with similar feeling stresses as the military. If this helps them make calmer decisions it may be money well spent. When is the last time you saw a chaplin driving a rolls royce? How much can the person be making?

I'm sure there are people who appreciate the Congressional chaplains, just as many appreciate the military chaplains. I have nothing against them. I just wondered why Congress can have one leading prayer when federally funded programs can't even whisper Christmas.

If they by mutual assent want a chaplain for what is supposed to be a completely secular process, they're certainly free to do so but it should be a volunteer position and taxpayers should not be on the hook.

>> The Senate Chaplain has a staff that includes a Chief-of-Staff, Director of Communications, and Executive Assistant,[12][13] and works with a volunteer liaison in each Senate office.[2] While the annual salary for the first Senate Chaplains was $500,[14] the salary is now set as a Level IV position in the Executive Schedule, which is $155,500.00 in 2011.[1] The total annual budget for the office, including salaries and expenses, is $415,000 as of 2011.[15][16] <<​

$415k, and that's just for the Senate. Hell I'll go in there and give 'em a piece of my mind for HALF that.

"Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom?

In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation." --- James Madison (ibid)

And Wiki doesn't report it but the House Chaplain is paid $172,500 a year. I make it $328,000 a year for those two salaries, not including staffs.

Got that? You babble some hocus pocus words in front of a few hundred people a few times a year, make six figures, and for that you need a STAFF.

That must make the waitress serving tables all day to barely feed her kids feel proud.

"Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom?

In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation." --- James Madison (ibid)
I kinda like the sound of that, Pogo. Thanks.