How do we Know Human are Causing Climate Change?

[SSDD]

The observations tell use bombardment, with less energetic particles, cools the mass as they must be warmed in order for them to be re-emitted.

When you finally post the masses of photons at various frequencies, will you also post their temperatures?
Can't wait to see your data.

I gave you the equation. I also advised you that the mass is dependent on the energy in the particle (as the equation describes). Your just to damn lazy to do the math...

Keep spinning TOAD, your circular arguments and lies bore me.

I doubt that it is laziness where toddster is concerned. He has made it abundantly clear that he can't even read a simple equation...much less solve one.

You never responded to my post about a 41C object radiating toward a 50C object. Why is that?

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

I didn't respond because the comment really didn't warrant any response...Which part of the second law of thermodynamics makes you think that could ever happen?

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow.

I explained that work was done, so why do you feel no energy will flow from cooler to warmer?

Do describe the "work" that you believe is being done in order to move energy from the 41 degree object to the 50 degree object.

In simple terms, this is the work being done to move energy from cool to warm in a refrigerator

1. The compressor constricts the refrigerant vapor, raising its pressure, and pushes it into the coils on the outside of the refrigerator.

2. When the hot gas in the coils meets the cooler air temperature of the kitchen, it becomes a liquid.

3. Now in liquid form at high pressure, the refrigerant cools down as it flows into the coils inside the freezer and the fridge.

4. The refrigerant absorbs the heat inside the fridge, cooling down the air.

5. Last, the refrigerant evaporates to a gas, then flows back to the compressor, where the cycle starts all over.

So do describe the work being done to move energy from your 41 degree object to a 50 degree object.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I gave you the equation. I also advised you that the mass is dependent on the energy in the particle (as the equation describes). Your just to damn lazy to do the math...

Keep spinning TOAD, your circular arguments and lies bore me.

I doubt that it is laziness where toddster is concerned. He has made it abundantly clear that he can't even read a simple equation...much less solve one.

You never responded to my post about a 41C object radiating toward a 50C object. Why is that?

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

I didn't respond because the comment really didn't warrant any response...Which part of the second law of thermodynamics makes you think that could ever happen?

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow.

I explained that work was done, so why do you feel no energy will flow from cooler to warmer?

Do describe the "work" that you believe is being done in order to move energy from the 41 degree object to the 50 degree object.

In simple terms, this is the work being done to move energy from cool to warm in a refrigerator

1. The compressor constricts the refrigerant vapor, raising its pressure, and pushes it into the coils on the outside of the refrigerator.

2. When the hot gas in the coils meets the cooler air temperature of the kitchen, it becomes a liquid.

3. Now in liquid form at high pressure, the refrigerant cools down as it flows into the coils inside the freezer and the fridge.

4. The refrigerant absorbs the heat inside the fridge, cooling down the air.

5. Last, the refrigerant evaporates to a gas, then flows back to the compressor, where the cycle starts all over.

So do describe the work being done to move energy from your 41 degree object to a 50 degree object.

Do describe the "work" that you believe is being done in order to move energy from the 41 degree object to the 50 degree object.

The work that warmed the 40C object up to 41C.

Like the work done to heat a flashlight filament to 3000C allows those photons to travel towards the Sun's
5500C surface.

Unless that's not allowed under your physics regime?

Like the work done to make the Sun's surface 5500C allows those photons to non-spnotaneously travel into the much hotter corona.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

How do we Know Human are Causing Climate Change?

Because the climate never changed before we started using fossil fuels?

Yes it did
And now it is changing at an accelerated pace

The earth can survive any climate change. It is one tough piece of rock
It is humans who are vulnerable

Humans can evolve to embrace climate change, global warming too

 

[SSDD]

I doubt that it is laziness where toddster is concerned. He has made it abundantly clear that he can't even read a simple equation...much less solve one.

You never responded to my post about a 41C object radiating toward a 50C object. Why is that?

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

I didn't respond because the comment really didn't warrant any response...Which part of the second law of thermodynamics makes you think that could ever happen?

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow.

I explained that work was done, so why do you feel no energy will flow from cooler to warmer?

Do describe the "work" that you believe is being done in order to move energy from the 41 degree object to the 50 degree object.

In simple terms, this is the work being done to move energy from cool to warm in a refrigerator

1. The compressor constricts the refrigerant vapor, raising its pressure, and pushes it into the coils on the outside of the refrigerator.

2. When the hot gas in the coils meets the cooler air temperature of the kitchen, it becomes a liquid.

3. Now in liquid form at high pressure, the refrigerant cools down as it flows into the coils inside the freezer and the fridge.

4. The refrigerant absorbs the heat inside the fridge, cooling down the air.

5. Last, the refrigerant evaporates to a gas, then flows back to the compressor, where the cycle starts all over.

So do describe the work being done to move energy from your 41 degree object to a 50 degree object.

Do describe the "work" that you believe is being done in order to move energy from the 41 degree object to the 50 degree object.

The work that warmed the 40C object up to 41C.

Like the work done to heat a flashlight filament to 3000C allows those photons to travel towards the Sun's
5500C surface.

Unless that's not allowed under your physics regime?

Like the work done to make the Sun's surface 5500C allows those photons to non-spnotaneously travel into the much hotter corona.

So you can't describe any such work...figures.

And what sort of evidence do you have that photons from a flashlight ever reach the sun? It may come as a surprise to you..but simply imagining a thing doesn't make it so....evidence...it is all about evidence which is why I ask for it so often...you might take time to wonder why you guys never seem to be able to produce any.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You never responded to my post about a 41C object radiating toward a 50C object. Why is that?

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

I didn't respond because the comment really didn't warrant any response...Which part of the second law of thermodynamics makes you think that could ever happen?

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow.

I explained that work was done, so why do you feel no energy will flow from cooler to warmer?

Do describe the "work" that you believe is being done in order to move energy from the 41 degree object to the 50 degree object.

In simple terms, this is the work being done to move energy from cool to warm in a refrigerator

1. The compressor constricts the refrigerant vapor, raising its pressure, and pushes it into the coils on the outside of the refrigerator.

2. When the hot gas in the coils meets the cooler air temperature of the kitchen, it becomes a liquid.

3. Now in liquid form at high pressure, the refrigerant cools down as it flows into the coils inside the freezer and the fridge.

4. The refrigerant absorbs the heat inside the fridge, cooling down the air.

5. Last, the refrigerant evaporates to a gas, then flows back to the compressor, where the cycle starts all over.

So do describe the work being done to move energy from your 41 degree object to a 50 degree object.

Do describe the "work" that you believe is being done in order to move energy from the 41 degree object to the 50 degree object.

The work that warmed the 40C object up to 41C.

Like the work done to heat a flashlight filament to 3000C allows those photons to travel towards the Sun's
5500C surface.

Unless that's not allowed under your physics regime?

Like the work done to make the Sun's surface 5500C allows those photons to non-spnotaneously travel into the much hotter corona.

So you can't describe any such work...figures.

And what sort of evidence do you have that photons from a flashlight ever reach the sun? It may come as a surprise to you..but simply imagining a thing doesn't make it so....evidence...it is all about evidence which is why I ask for it so often...you might take time to wonder why you guys never seem to be able to produce any.

So you can't describe any such work...figures.

Energy can't move from cooler to hotter, unless work is done.
The work done at the Sun's core (fusion) travels to the Sun's surface and then through the hotter corona.
I did work (chemical battery) to get the 40C object up to 41C. Work which allows the 41C object to radiate toward the 50C object.

Unless you're claiming I need to do work to make the cooler 40C object hotter than the 50C object?

Is that your claim?

And what sort of evidence do you have that photons from a flashlight ever reach the sun?

I breathlessly await your proof that my flashlight photons are prohibited from hitting the Sun.

 

[SSDD]

Energy can't move from cooler to hotter, unless work is done.
The work done at the Sun's core (fusion) travels to the Sun's surface and then through the hotter corona.

Actually, that isn't at all what science thinks...alfen waves have been pointed out to you before, but since that doesn't jibe with your beliefs, you tend to forget.

I did work (chemical battery) to get the 40C object up to 41C.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

Work which allows the 41C object to radiate toward the 50C object.

Describe the work that moved energy from a cooler object to a warmer object...

Unless you're claiming I need to do work to make the cooler 40C object hotter than the 50C object?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement. Energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...if you want energy to move to a 50 degree object from an object that is 41 degrees, then you are going to need to raise the temperature..

I breathlessly await your proof that my flashlight photons are prohibited from hitting the Sun.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

It is becoming clear that you don't really grasp the concept of work...what it is....what constitutes it....etc. You continue to think like a 5 year old.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Energy can't move from cooler to hotter, unless work is done.
The work done at the Sun's core (fusion) travels to the Sun's surface and then through the hotter corona.

Actually, that isn't at all what science thinks...alfen waves have been pointed out to you before, but since that doesn't jibe with your beliefs, you tend to forget.

I did work (chemical battery) to get the 40C object up to 41C.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

Work which allows the 41C object to radiate toward the 50C object.

Describe the work that moved energy from a cooler object to a warmer object...

Unless you're claiming I need to do work to make the cooler 40C object hotter than the 50C object?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement. Energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...if you want energy to move to a 50 degree object from an object that is 41 degrees, then you are going to need to raise the temperature..

I breathlessly await your proof that my flashlight photons are prohibited from hitting the Sun.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

It is becoming clear that you don't really grasp the concept of work...what it is....what constitutes it....etc. You continue to think like a 5 year old.

alfen waves have been pointed out to you before

Nobody cares about alfen waves. Just about cooler surface photons moving toward hotter corona.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

The work in the Sun's core allows the cooler surface to non-spontaneously radiate through the hotter corona.
The work to heat to 41C allows the cooler body to non-spontaneously radiate to the hotter body.
The work done to heat the flashlight filament allows the photons from the flashlight to hitter the hotter surface of the sun.

You have early onset dementia? You forget your old claims?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement.​

Only to you. By yourself. All alone. Weird.

​

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object. ​

​

Yup. Flashlight has a battery. Makes the photons non-spontaneous, remember?​

​

You continue to think like a 5 year old.​

​

A 5 year old thinking circles around you. Sad.​

​

Maybe you should email Dr. Raeder, ask him about flashlight photons being prohibited from hitting the sun?​

​

He could probably use another laugh.​

 

[jc456]

Laughing out loud in your stupid face....

30,000? Really? How many molecules do you think are in a cubic centimeter of air? When you start out with bullshit...and build on it..you only get more bullshit..

No doubt you believe yourself even though there is no such thing as a square meter of air...of course you believe all manner of rediculousness.....

You may as well calculate the percentage of unicorns that successfully complete the yearly migration...

Ho hum. Still laughing out loud at your monitor screen? And another unicorn reference! How unique.

Still hung up on your slab atmosphere example? We are past that. You demanded to know what a cubic meter of CO2 was radiating. I showed you it is around 175 Watts isotropically.

How about a computation on the conduction of heat in the atmosphere. It's easy. I will give you my answer: 0.000255 Watts per meter at STP.

.

You demonstrate the garbage in garbage out principle perfectly...you actually believe that 1 in 30,000 CO2 molecules actually radiates a photon? In any given cubic centimeter of air, there are roughly 77,000,000 molecules...of those, about 30,000 are CO2 molecules...the odds of any of those thirty thousand molecules not having a collision with any of the 77 million molecules they are jostling around with in the time between absorption and emission of a photon is not even close to 1 in 30,000...not even close. I think William Happer was closer to the mark when he said that about 1 in a billion CO2 molecules will escape a collision and actually emit a photon...

Your numbers based on your wildly wrong odds of a CO2 molecule actually emitting a photon are so far off, that it isn't even funny to me.....garbage in..garbage out...the guiding principle of climate science..

This is old ground we are retreading. You are always guessing at things by saying, Gee this number is small or that number is big. That is not a way to handle science. Here it is again:

The relaxation time of a CO2 molecule is slightly less than 6 microSec. That means that, on the average, within 6000 nanoSec it will spontaneously emit a photon.
Reference, https://pure.tue.nl/ws/files/3478579/109243.pdf

The average time for an air molecule to collide with it is 0.2 nanoSec. A collision will abort the radiation of 15 microns.

The excited CO2 will most likely undergo collision before it has a chance to emit the photon. More specifically,
CO2 emission probability is 0.2 ns / 6000 ns = 1 / 30,000

So, your guess was wrong. There is a 175 Watt radiation density due to CO2.
Conduction is only 0.000255 Watts per meter at STP.

It really looks like CO2 radiation is about a million times more effective than convection.

.

The mean decay time for a CO2 molecule to emit a photon is on the order of 1 second according to Dr Happer...

From an email exchange with Dr Happer:
Gmail - Another dumb question from Dave

At your UNC lecture you told us many things which I had not known, but two of them were these:

1. At low altitudes, the mean time between molecular collisions, through which an excited CO2 molecule can transfer its energy to another gas molecule (usually N2) is on the order of 1 nanosecond.

2. The mean decay time for an excited CO2 molecule to emit an IR photon is on the order of 1 second (a billion times as long).

Did I understand that correctly? [YES, PRECISELY. I ATTACH A PAPER ON RADIATIVE LIFETIMES OF CO2 FROM THE CO2 LASER COMMUNITY. YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THE BENDING-MODE TRANSITIONS, FOR EXAMPLE, 010 – 000. AS I THINK I MAY HAVE INDICATED ON SLIDE 24, THE RADIATIVE DECAY RATES FOR THE BENDING MODE ALSO DEPEND ON VIBRATION AND ROTATIONAL QUANTUM NUMBERS, AND THEY CAN BE A FEW ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE SLOWER THAN 1 S^{-1} FOR HIGHER EXCITED STATES. THIS IS BECAUSE OF SMALL MATRIX ELEMENTS FOR THE TRANSITION MOMENTS.]

Here is the attachment:

https://sealevel.info/Happer_UNC_2014-09-08/Statz67-lifetimes.pdf

You should have asked him if cooler molecules are restricted in anyway from emitting toward warmer molecules.

you think he wouldn't believe in the 2nd Law? hmmmm you know him?

 

[jc456]

Energy can't move from cooler to hotter, unless work is done.
The work done at the Sun's core (fusion) travels to the Sun's surface and then through the hotter corona.

Actually, that isn't at all what science thinks...alfen waves have been pointed out to you before, but since that doesn't jibe with your beliefs, you tend to forget.

I did work (chemical battery) to get the 40C object up to 41C.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

Work which allows the 41C object to radiate toward the 50C object.

Describe the work that moved energy from a cooler object to a warmer object...

Unless you're claiming I need to do work to make the cooler 40C object hotter than the 50C object?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement. Energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...if you want energy to move to a 50 degree object from an object that is 41 degrees, then you are going to need to raise the temperature..

I breathlessly await your proof that my flashlight photons are prohibited from hitting the Sun.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

It is becoming clear that you don't really grasp the concept of work...what it is....what constitutes it....etc. You continue to think like a 5 year old.

alfen waves have been pointed out to you before

Nobody cares about alfen waves. Just about cooler surface photons moving toward hotter corona.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

The work in the Sun's core allows the cooler surface to non-spontaneously radiate through the hotter corona.
The work to heat to 41C allows the cooler body to non-spontaneously radiate to the hotter body.
The work done to heat the flashlight filament allows the photons from the flashlight to hitter the hotter surface of the sun.

You have early onset dementia? You forget your old claims?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement.

Only to you. By yourself. All alone. Weird.


Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Yup. Flashlight has a battery. Makes the photons non-spontaneous, remember?

You continue to think like a 5 year old.

A 5 year old thinking circles around you. Sad.

Maybe you should email Dr. Raeder, ask him about flashlight photons being prohibited from hitting the sun?

He could probably use another laugh.​

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law. you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it. Until then, you can blabber about all you want on here, you still haven't refuted the 2nd Law.


What Causes the Sun to Give off Heat?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Ho hum. Still laughing out loud at your monitor screen? And another unicorn reference! How unique.

Still hung up on your slab atmosphere example? We are past that. You demanded to know what a cubic meter of CO2 was radiating. I showed you it is around 175 Watts isotropically.

How about a computation on the conduction of heat in the atmosphere. It's easy. I will give you my answer: 0.000255 Watts per meter at STP.

.

You demonstrate the garbage in garbage out principle perfectly...you actually believe that 1 in 30,000 CO2 molecules actually radiates a photon? In any given cubic centimeter of air, there are roughly 77,000,000 molecules...of those, about 30,000 are CO2 molecules...the odds of any of those thirty thousand molecules not having a collision with any of the 77 million molecules they are jostling around with in the time between absorption and emission of a photon is not even close to 1 in 30,000...not even close. I think William Happer was closer to the mark when he said that about 1 in a billion CO2 molecules will escape a collision and actually emit a photon...

Your numbers based on your wildly wrong odds of a CO2 molecule actually emitting a photon are so far off, that it isn't even funny to me.....garbage in..garbage out...the guiding principle of climate science..

This is old ground we are retreading. You are always guessing at things by saying, Gee this number is small or that number is big. That is not a way to handle science. Here it is again:

The relaxation time of a CO2 molecule is slightly less than 6 microSec. That means that, on the average, within 6000 nanoSec it will spontaneously emit a photon.
Reference, https://pure.tue.nl/ws/files/3478579/109243.pdf

The average time for an air molecule to collide with it is 0.2 nanoSec. A collision will abort the radiation of 15 microns.

The excited CO2 will most likely undergo collision before it has a chance to emit the photon. More specifically,
CO2 emission probability is 0.2 ns / 6000 ns = 1 / 30,000

So, your guess was wrong. There is a 175 Watt radiation density due to CO2.
Conduction is only 0.000255 Watts per meter at STP.

It really looks like CO2 radiation is about a million times more effective than convection.

.

The mean decay time for a CO2 molecule to emit a photon is on the order of 1 second according to Dr Happer...

From an email exchange with Dr Happer:
Gmail - Another dumb question from Dave

At your UNC lecture you told us many things which I had not known, but two of them were these:

1. At low altitudes, the mean time between molecular collisions, through which an excited CO2 molecule can transfer its energy to another gas molecule (usually N2) is on the order of 1 nanosecond.

2. The mean decay time for an excited CO2 molecule to emit an IR photon is on the order of 1 second (a billion times as long).

Did I understand that correctly? [YES, PRECISELY. I ATTACH A PAPER ON RADIATIVE LIFETIMES OF CO2 FROM THE CO2 LASER COMMUNITY. YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THE BENDING-MODE TRANSITIONS, FOR EXAMPLE, 010 – 000. AS I THINK I MAY HAVE INDICATED ON SLIDE 24, THE RADIATIVE DECAY RATES FOR THE BENDING MODE ALSO DEPEND ON VIBRATION AND ROTATIONAL QUANTUM NUMBERS, AND THEY CAN BE A FEW ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE SLOWER THAN 1 S^{-1} FOR HIGHER EXCITED STATES. THIS IS BECAUSE OF SMALL MATRIX ELEMENTS FOR THE TRANSITION MOMENTS.]

Here is the attachment:

https://sealevel.info/Happer_UNC_2014-09-08/Statz67-lifetimes.pdf

You should have asked him if cooler molecules are restricted in anyway from emitting toward warmer molecules.

you think he wouldn't believe in the 2nd Law? hmmmm you know him?

I think Dr. Raeder actually understands the 2nd Law, unlike your buddy.

You should email him.

 

[jc456]

You demonstrate the garbage in garbage out principle perfectly...you actually believe that 1 in 30,000 CO2 molecules actually radiates a photon? In any given cubic centimeter of air, there are roughly 77,000,000 molecules...of those, about 30,000 are CO2 molecules...the odds of any of those thirty thousand molecules not having a collision with any of the 77 million molecules they are jostling around with in the time between absorption and emission of a photon is not even close to 1 in 30,000...not even close. I think William Happer was closer to the mark when he said that about 1 in a billion CO2 molecules will escape a collision and actually emit a photon...

Your numbers based on your wildly wrong odds of a CO2 molecule actually emitting a photon are so far off, that it isn't even funny to me.....garbage in..garbage out...the guiding principle of climate science..

This is old ground we are retreading. You are always guessing at things by saying, Gee this number is small or that number is big. That is not a way to handle science. Here it is again:

The relaxation time of a CO2 molecule is slightly less than 6 microSec. That means that, on the average, within 6000 nanoSec it will spontaneously emit a photon.
Reference, https://pure.tue.nl/ws/files/3478579/109243.pdf

The average time for an air molecule to collide with it is 0.2 nanoSec. A collision will abort the radiation of 15 microns.

The excited CO2 will most likely undergo collision before it has a chance to emit the photon. More specifically,
CO2 emission probability is 0.2 ns / 6000 ns = 1 / 30,000

So, your guess was wrong. There is a 175 Watt radiation density due to CO2.
Conduction is only 0.000255 Watts per meter at STP.

It really looks like CO2 radiation is about a million times more effective than convection.

.

The mean decay time for a CO2 molecule to emit a photon is on the order of 1 second according to Dr Happer...

From an email exchange with Dr Happer:
Gmail - Another dumb question from Dave

At your UNC lecture you told us many things which I had not known, but two of them were these:

1. At low altitudes, the mean time between molecular collisions, through which an excited CO2 molecule can transfer its energy to another gas molecule (usually N2) is on the order of 1 nanosecond.

2. The mean decay time for an excited CO2 molecule to emit an IR photon is on the order of 1 second (a billion times as long).

Did I understand that correctly? [YES, PRECISELY. I ATTACH A PAPER ON RADIATIVE LIFETIMES OF CO2 FROM THE CO2 LASER COMMUNITY. YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THE BENDING-MODE TRANSITIONS, FOR EXAMPLE, 010 – 000. AS I THINK I MAY HAVE INDICATED ON SLIDE 24, THE RADIATIVE DECAY RATES FOR THE BENDING MODE ALSO DEPEND ON VIBRATION AND ROTATIONAL QUANTUM NUMBERS, AND THEY CAN BE A FEW ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE SLOWER THAN 1 S^{-1} FOR HIGHER EXCITED STATES. THIS IS BECAUSE OF SMALL MATRIX ELEMENTS FOR THE TRANSITION MOMENTS.]

Here is the attachment:

https://sealevel.info/Happer_UNC_2014-09-08/Statz67-lifetimes.pdf

You should have asked him if cooler molecules are restricted in anyway from emitting toward warmer molecules.

you think he wouldn't believe in the 2nd Law? hmmmm you know him?

I think Dr. Raeder actually understands the 2nd Law, unlike your buddy.

You should email him.

seems you should, it's you that says it does something it doesn't. In that way you can get your verification of fact. go for it, let us know what he tells you.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Energy can't move from cooler to hotter, unless work is done.
The work done at the Sun's core (fusion) travels to the Sun's surface and then through the hotter corona.

Actually, that isn't at all what science thinks...alfen waves have been pointed out to you before, but since that doesn't jibe with your beliefs, you tend to forget.

I did work (chemical battery) to get the 40C object up to 41C.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

Work which allows the 41C object to radiate toward the 50C object.

Describe the work that moved energy from a cooler object to a warmer object...

Unless you're claiming I need to do work to make the cooler 40C object hotter than the 50C object?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement. Energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...if you want energy to move to a 50 degree object from an object that is 41 degrees, then you are going to need to raise the temperature..

I breathlessly await your proof that my flashlight photons are prohibited from hitting the Sun.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

It is becoming clear that you don't really grasp the concept of work...what it is....what constitutes it....etc. You continue to think like a 5 year old.

alfen waves have been pointed out to you before

Nobody cares about alfen waves. Just about cooler surface photons moving toward hotter corona.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

The work in the Sun's core allows the cooler surface to non-spontaneously radiate through the hotter corona.
The work to heat to 41C allows the cooler body to non-spontaneously radiate to the hotter body.
The work done to heat the flashlight filament allows the photons from the flashlight to hitter the hotter surface of the sun.

You have early onset dementia? You forget your old claims?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement.

Only to you. By yourself. All alone. Weird.


Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Yup. Flashlight has a battery. Makes the photons non-spontaneous, remember?

You continue to think like a 5 year old.

A 5 year old thinking circles around you. Sad.

Maybe you should email Dr. Raeder, ask him about flashlight photons being prohibited from hitting the sun?

He could probably use another laugh.​

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law. you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it. Until then, you can blabber about all you want on here, you still haven't refuted the 2nd Law.


What Causes the Sun to Give off Heat?

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law.

And SSDD is still confused.

you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it.

Nothing contradicts the 2nd Law.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

This is old ground we are retreading. You are always guessing at things by saying, Gee this number is small or that number is big. That is not a way to handle science. Here it is again:

The relaxation time of a CO2 molecule is slightly less than 6 microSec. That means that, on the average, within 6000 nanoSec it will spontaneously emit a photon.
Reference, https://pure.tue.nl/ws/files/3478579/109243.pdf

The average time for an air molecule to collide with it is 0.2 nanoSec. A collision will abort the radiation of 15 microns.

The excited CO2 will most likely undergo collision before it has a chance to emit the photon. More specifically,
CO2 emission probability is 0.2 ns / 6000 ns = 1 / 30,000

So, your guess was wrong. There is a 175 Watt radiation density due to CO2.
Conduction is only 0.000255 Watts per meter at STP.

It really looks like CO2 radiation is about a million times more effective than convection.

.

The mean decay time for a CO2 molecule to emit a photon is on the order of 1 second according to Dr Happer...

From an email exchange with Dr Happer:
Gmail - Another dumb question from Dave

At your UNC lecture you told us many things which I had not known, but two of them were these:

1. At low altitudes, the mean time between molecular collisions, through which an excited CO2 molecule can transfer its energy to another gas molecule (usually N2) is on the order of 1 nanosecond.

2. The mean decay time for an excited CO2 molecule to emit an IR photon is on the order of 1 second (a billion times as long).

Did I understand that correctly? [YES, PRECISELY. I ATTACH A PAPER ON RADIATIVE LIFETIMES OF CO2 FROM THE CO2 LASER COMMUNITY. YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THE BENDING-MODE TRANSITIONS, FOR EXAMPLE, 010 – 000. AS I THINK I MAY HAVE INDICATED ON SLIDE 24, THE RADIATIVE DECAY RATES FOR THE BENDING MODE ALSO DEPEND ON VIBRATION AND ROTATIONAL QUANTUM NUMBERS, AND THEY CAN BE A FEW ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE SLOWER THAN 1 S^{-1} FOR HIGHER EXCITED STATES. THIS IS BECAUSE OF SMALL MATRIX ELEMENTS FOR THE TRANSITION MOMENTS.]

Here is the attachment:

https://sealevel.info/Happer_UNC_2014-09-08/Statz67-lifetimes.pdf

You should have asked him if cooler molecules are restricted in anyway from emitting toward warmer molecules.

you think he wouldn't believe in the 2nd Law? hmmmm you know him?

I think Dr. Raeder actually understands the 2nd Law, unlike your buddy.

You should email him.

seems you should, it's you that says it does something it doesn't. In that way you can get your verification of fact. go for it, let us know what he tells you.

seems you should,

I did. SSDD's errors made him chuckle.

 

[jc456]

Energy can't move from cooler to hotter, unless work is done.
The work done at the Sun's core (fusion) travels to the Sun's surface and then through the hotter corona.

Actually, that isn't at all what science thinks...alfen waves have been pointed out to you before, but since that doesn't jibe with your beliefs, you tend to forget.

I did work (chemical battery) to get the 40C object up to 41C.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

Work which allows the 41C object to radiate toward the 50C object.

Describe the work that moved energy from a cooler object to a warmer object...

Unless you're claiming I need to do work to make the cooler 40C object hotter than the 50C object?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement. Energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...if you want energy to move to a 50 degree object from an object that is 41 degrees, then you are going to need to raise the temperature..

I breathlessly await your proof that my flashlight photons are prohibited from hitting the Sun.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

It is becoming clear that you don't really grasp the concept of work...what it is....what constitutes it....etc. You continue to think like a 5 year old.

alfen waves have been pointed out to you before

Nobody cares about alfen waves. Just about cooler surface photons moving toward hotter corona.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

The work in the Sun's core allows the cooler surface to non-spontaneously radiate through the hotter corona.
The work to heat to 41C allows the cooler body to non-spontaneously radiate to the hotter body.
The work done to heat the flashlight filament allows the photons from the flashlight to hitter the hotter surface of the sun.

You have early onset dementia? You forget your old claims?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement.

Only to you. By yourself. All alone. Weird.


Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Yup. Flashlight has a battery. Makes the photons non-spontaneous, remember?

You continue to think like a 5 year old.

A 5 year old thinking circles around you. Sad.

Maybe you should email Dr. Raeder, ask him about flashlight photons being prohibited from hitting the sun?

He could probably use another laugh.​

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law. you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it. Until then, you can blabber about all you want on here, you still haven't refuted the 2nd Law.


What Causes the Sun to Give off Heat?

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law.

And SSDD is still confused.

you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it.

Nothing contradicts the 2nd Law.

so you agree with...

• Clausius statement: Heat cannot transfer from a low-temperature body to the high-temperature body until unless there is an external force on the system.

Otherwise, you need to find the document that says otherwise.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Energy can't move from cooler to hotter, unless work is done.
The work done at the Sun's core (fusion) travels to the Sun's surface and then through the hotter corona.

Actually, that isn't at all what science thinks...alfen waves have been pointed out to you before, but since that doesn't jibe with your beliefs, you tend to forget.

I did work (chemical battery) to get the 40C object up to 41C.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

Work which allows the 41C object to radiate toward the 50C object.

Describe the work that moved energy from a cooler object to a warmer object...

Unless you're claiming I need to do work to make the cooler 40C object hotter than the 50C object?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement. Energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...if you want energy to move to a 50 degree object from an object that is 41 degrees, then you are going to need to raise the temperature..

I breathlessly await your proof that my flashlight photons are prohibited from hitting the Sun.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

It is becoming clear that you don't really grasp the concept of work...what it is....what constitutes it....etc. You continue to think like a 5 year old.

alfen waves have been pointed out to you before

Nobody cares about alfen waves. Just about cooler surface photons moving toward hotter corona.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

The work in the Sun's core allows the cooler surface to non-spontaneously radiate through the hotter corona.
The work to heat to 41C allows the cooler body to non-spontaneously radiate to the hotter body.
The work done to heat the flashlight filament allows the photons from the flashlight to hitter the hotter surface of the sun.

You have early onset dementia? You forget your old claims?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement.

Only to you. By yourself. All alone. Weird.


Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Yup. Flashlight has a battery. Makes the photons non-spontaneous, remember?

You continue to think like a 5 year old.

A 5 year old thinking circles around you. Sad.

Maybe you should email Dr. Raeder, ask him about flashlight photons being prohibited from hitting the sun?

He could probably use another laugh.​

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law. you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it. Until then, you can blabber about all you want on here, you still haven't refuted the 2nd Law.


What Causes the Sun to Give off Heat?

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law.

And SSDD is still confused.

you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it.

Nothing contradicts the 2nd Law.

so you agree with...

• Clausius statement: Heat cannot transfer from a low-temperature body to the high-temperature body until unless there is an external force on the system.

Otherwise, you need to find the document that says otherwise.

Reread my posts for the external sources of energy.

Do you feel flashlight photons can't hit the Sun's surface? Why?

 

[jc456]

Actually, that isn't at all what science thinks...alfen waves have been pointed out to you before, but since that doesn't jibe with your beliefs, you tend to forget.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

Describe the work that moved energy from a cooler object to a warmer object...

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement. Energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...if you want energy to move to a 50 degree object from an object that is 41 degrees, then you are going to need to raise the temperature..

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

It is becoming clear that you don't really grasp the concept of work...what it is....what constitutes it....etc. You continue to think like a 5 year old.

alfen waves have been pointed out to you before

Nobody cares about alfen waves. Just about cooler surface photons moving toward hotter corona.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

The work in the Sun's core allows the cooler surface to non-spontaneously radiate through the hotter corona.
The work to heat to 41C allows the cooler body to non-spontaneously radiate to the hotter body.
The work done to heat the flashlight filament allows the photons from the flashlight to hitter the hotter surface of the sun.

You have early onset dementia? You forget your old claims?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement.

Only to you. By yourself. All alone. Weird.


Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Yup. Flashlight has a battery. Makes the photons non-spontaneous, remember?

You continue to think like a 5 year old.

A 5 year old thinking circles around you. Sad.

Maybe you should email Dr. Raeder, ask him about flashlight photons being prohibited from hitting the sun?

He could probably use another laugh.​

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law. you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it. Until then, you can blabber about all you want on here, you still haven't refuted the 2nd Law.


What Causes the Sun to Give off Heat?

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law.

And SSDD is still confused.

you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it.

Nothing contradicts the 2nd Law.

so you agree with...

• Clausius statement: Heat cannot transfer from a low-temperature body to the high-temperature body until unless there is an external force on the system.

Otherwise, you need to find the document that says otherwise.

Reread my posts for the external sources of energy.

Do you feel flashlight photons can't hit the Sun's surface? Why?

go outside and point your flashlight at it and tell us what it does.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Actually, that isn't at all what science thinks...alfen waves have been pointed out to you before, but since that doesn't jibe with your beliefs, you tend to forget.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

Describe the work that moved energy from a cooler object to a warmer object...

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement. Energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...if you want energy to move to a 50 degree object from an object that is 41 degrees, then you are going to need to raise the temperature..

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

It is becoming clear that you don't really grasp the concept of work...what it is....what constitutes it....etc. You continue to think like a 5 year old.

alfen waves have been pointed out to you before

Nobody cares about alfen waves. Just about cooler surface photons moving toward hotter corona.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

The work in the Sun's core allows the cooler surface to non-spontaneously radiate through the hotter corona.
The work to heat to 41C allows the cooler body to non-spontaneously radiate to the hotter body.
The work done to heat the flashlight filament allows the photons from the flashlight to hitter the hotter surface of the sun.

You have early onset dementia? You forget your old claims?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement.

Only to you. By yourself. All alone. Weird.


Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Yup. Flashlight has a battery. Makes the photons non-spontaneous, remember?

You continue to think like a 5 year old.

A 5 year old thinking circles around you. Sad.

Maybe you should email Dr. Raeder, ask him about flashlight photons being prohibited from hitting the sun?

He could probably use another laugh.​

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law. you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it. Until then, you can blabber about all you want on here, you still haven't refuted the 2nd Law.


What Causes the Sun to Give off Heat?

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law.

And SSDD is still confused.

you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it.

Nothing contradicts the 2nd Law.

so you agree with...

• Clausius statement: Heat cannot transfer from a low-temperature body to the high-temperature body until unless there is an external force on the system.

Otherwise, you need to find the document that says otherwise.

Reread my posts for the external sources of energy.

Do you feel flashlight photons can't hit the Sun's surface? Why?

Do you think that opening your front door on a frigid winter day makes your house warmer?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

alfen waves have been pointed out to you before

Nobody cares about alfen waves. Just about cooler surface photons moving toward hotter corona.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

The work in the Sun's core allows the cooler surface to non-spontaneously radiate through the hotter corona.
The work to heat to 41C allows the cooler body to non-spontaneously radiate to the hotter body.
The work done to heat the flashlight filament allows the photons from the flashlight to hitter the hotter surface of the sun.

You have early onset dementia? You forget your old claims?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement.

Only to you. By yourself. All alone. Weird.


Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Yup. Flashlight has a battery. Makes the photons non-spontaneous, remember?

You continue to think like a 5 year old.

A 5 year old thinking circles around you. Sad.

Maybe you should email Dr. Raeder, ask him about flashlight photons being prohibited from hitting the sun?

He could probably use another laugh.​

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law. you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it. Until then, you can blabber about all you want on here, you still haven't refuted the 2nd Law.


What Causes the Sun to Give off Heat?

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law.

And SSDD is still confused.

you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it.

Nothing contradicts the 2nd Law.

so you agree with...

• Clausius statement: Heat cannot transfer from a low-temperature body to the high-temperature body until unless there is an external force on the system.

Otherwise, you need to find the document that says otherwise.

Reread my posts for the external sources of energy.

Do you feel flashlight photons can't hit the Sun's surface? Why?

go outside and point your flashlight at it and tell us what it does.

Is there a force-field around the Sun?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

alfen waves have been pointed out to you before

Nobody cares about alfen waves. Just about cooler surface photons moving toward hotter corona.

Not sure what sort of work you are claiming, but OK...you did some work to get the temperarature up to 41C

The work in the Sun's core allows the cooler surface to non-spontaneously radiate through the hotter corona.
The work to heat to 41C allows the cooler body to non-spontaneously radiate to the hotter body.
The work done to heat the flashlight filament allows the photons from the flashlight to hitter the hotter surface of the sun.

You have early onset dementia? You forget your old claims?

Who needs to claim that...it is obvious through observation and measurement.

Only to you. By yourself. All alone. Weird.


Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Yup. Flashlight has a battery. Makes the photons non-spontaneous, remember?

You continue to think like a 5 year old.

A 5 year old thinking circles around you. Sad.

Maybe you should email Dr. Raeder, ask him about flashlight photons being prohibited from hitting the sun?

He could probably use another laugh.​

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law. you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it. Until then, you can blabber about all you want on here, you still haven't refuted the 2nd Law.


What Causes the Sun to Give off Heat?

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law.

And SSDD is still confused.

you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it.

Nothing contradicts the 2nd Law.

so you agree with...

• Clausius statement: Heat cannot transfer from a low-temperature body to the high-temperature body until unless there is an external force on the system.

Otherwise, you need to find the document that says otherwise.

Reread my posts for the external sources of energy.

Do you feel flashlight photons can't hit the Sun's surface? Why?

Do you think that opening your front door on a frigid winter day makes your house warmer?

Is there anything that prevents photons from outside my house from entering my house when I open the door?

 

[jc456]

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law. you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it. Until then, you can blabber about all you want on here, you still haven't refuted the 2nd Law.


What Causes the Sun to Give off Heat?

and the 2nd Law is still the 2nd Law.

And SSDD is still confused.

you provide the law that contradicts that, we'll read it.

Nothing contradicts the 2nd Law.

so you agree with...

• Clausius statement: Heat cannot transfer from a low-temperature body to the high-temperature body until unless there is an external force on the system.

Otherwise, you need to find the document that says otherwise.

Reread my posts for the external sources of energy.

Do you feel flashlight photons can't hit the Sun's surface? Why?

go outside and point your flashlight at it and tell us what it does.

Is there a force-field around the Sun?

you should go find out. seems you have many questions on the sun. when is your flight to experiment with it?

Hey curious, if you shined your flashlight at the International Space Station, will they see it?