Hate Speech In Germany

[Madeline]

Yeah, but couldn't you have said pretty much all that about Chinese immigrants to the US, or Vietnamese, or even Latin?

Mebbe these countries would be better off trying to reduce the numbers of single men who immigrate. That HAS to be a source of friction...they can't think they're gonna marry western women, can they?

 

[Tech_Esq]

Yeah, but couldn't you have said pretty much all that about Chinese immigrants to the US, or Vietnamese, or even Latin?

Mebbe these countries would be better off trying to reduce the numbers of single men who immigrate. That HAS to be a source of friction...they can't think they're gonna marry western women, can they?

Oh no. Far different than mere cultural differences. You leave your country, you leave all of the pieces and apparatus of your country behind. But with Islam, you take it with you.

If you're Chinese, you may be a Buddist. Buddism does not include a court system. If you are Morrocan, you're probably a Muslim. Islam does include a court system and many other important aspects of daily life.

No silly, they don't want to marry western women, they're Infidels. They want to rape them and put them in their place.

 

[Madeline]

Please be patient with my ignorance here, Tech_Esq.

What court system? Something more than the Rabbinical Courts some Jews use?

 

[SW2SILVER]

Turks out breed native Germans. They are Muslim. Let's flip this it's head. Suppose Westerners fled to Saudi Arabia instead. Muslims would NEVER allow that. Please. Liberals must know that ISLAM is the enemy of freedom. They would stone their opponents to death. They hate the west. They hate YOU.

 

[SW2SILVER]

Muslims won't assimilate, that IS the problem. THEY won't. What PROOF do you have they will, Madeline?

 

[ekrem]

Turks out breed native Germans. They are Muslim. Let's flip this it's head. Suppose Westerners fled to Saudi Arabia instead. Muslims would NEVER allow that. Please. Liberals must know that ISLAM is the enemy of freedom. They would stone their opponents to death. They hate the west. They hate YOU.

Look, till the year 2000 Germany defined citizenship by blood-law. That changed.
Before that Immigrants were just considered "guest-workers" who will go.
After 40 years, the Germans have realized, that the "guest-workers" are there to stay, and many of them are there in the 3rd or 4th generation.
Now they finance integration programmes through federal budget and Integration has become key part of German Policy. It's moving in the right direction.

German President Wulff, who has been appointed in July 2010 has declared his primary goal of his presidency the Integration subject.
There are off course resentiments in Germany, but at the end of the day the German will tell you, that he is happy that the majority of Muslims in Germany consists of Turks and not of Africans or South-Asians.

A German user in military-forum:

the situation in germany is way better then in france for example
all those moroccans, algerians and black africans there... we can be happy that we have mainly turks

European & Russia Defence Forum: Ethnic Germans and Immigrants On Better Terms Than Expected

63% of Muslims in Germany are Turks.
Turks in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The greatest problems, Germans have with Turks is their bondage with home-country. The Turkish state will organize afternoon school-classes for grade 1 to 8, sending teachers to Germany.
The mosques the Turks visit are mostly State mosques of Turkey, as are the Imams State bureaucrats of Turkish State. The problem some Germans have is the influence a foreign state has over the biggest immigration group in Germany. They fear manipulation like Jews are manipulating USA into unquestioned pro-Israel direction.

And there is off course progress. On most mosques now flies the German flag.
And Turks also are beginning to identify with German flag, allthough they have made Turkish version out of it, placing into the red parts of German Flag the crescent and star.

The Federal Institute for Political Education says in its 277th Edition, that Turks have become heterogen, that it is not anymore possible to make benchmarks of "Turkish intergration in Germany".
Türkische Minderheit in Deutschland - Informationen zur politischen Bildung (Heft 277)

As the CSM (Chr. Science Monitor) says, most of Eurabia literature is being written in USA. Keep it for yourself, we don't read it.


Merkel has protected the Turks and said, that Sarrazin's arguments are absurd.
Migrationsdebatte: Merkel nimmt in Deutschland lebende Türken in Schutz - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik
She always says, that she also wants to be Chancellor of the Turks.
Somehow the Turks also have affronted the politicians.
When Turkish Prime Ministers visit Germany, it is always a mass event.
German State news then will report about it under headlines like:
"The Führer comes to Germany"
It's not easy to be raised as Turkish male. From beginning the family will indoctrinate you with nationalism and being a good patriot Turk.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkqeVpInc8k]YouTube - LIDERi Erdogan oder der "Führer" kommt nach Köln[/ame]

 

[California Girl]

Unbelievable, hipeter. First France and now Germany? WTF is going on in Europe?

It isn't just France and Germany.... The 'far right' (and by that I don't mean what the drooling hordes on here refer to as 'far right'... I mean the real far right - the likes of Storm Front) parties are becoming increasingly popular.

Begrudgingly, I have to say - having watched them - I'm impressed with their ability to hide their hatred and put on a 'patriotic' front instead of the drooling nationalism that they used to use.

The reasons for the rise? It's a complex issue, but, at its most fundamental level, I think that political correctness is responsible for a lot of it. In Europe, they have immigrants being given houses, and benefits, when the indigenous people get nothing. People come in to England and get given a house, money, etc and young people can't get work, can't afford to buy a home, can't affort to rent.... etc. They are told 'don't put up Christmas decs in case you offend a foreigner'. They can't fly their national flag in case they offend a foreigner. Their law enforcement and government agencies spend millions of taxpayers money making sure that people who can't speak the language can access public services.

In the UK, known radical muslim preachers are given houses, he - and his family are paid for by the taxpayer - and he is telling his fellow Muslims to attack the Brits. WTF?

Is it any wonder people are pissed off?

 

[L.K.Eder]

lol, "they can't fly their national flags".

the indigenous people get nothing, and the mooslims get houses, with pools, and ferraris.

the boat is full!

 

[ekrem]

The Humboldt University of Berlin has published a counter-study which disproves Mr. Sarrazin's 7th chapter of his book on Muslim Immigration.
The counter-study was limited to this 7th chapter of the book.
http://www.heymat.hu-berlin.de/sarrazin2010

Central findings are:

- Mr. Sarrazin claims, that Muslim parents hand lower-education down to their children.
According to the University: In the 1st generation of Muslim immigration, only 3% had a higher education.
The current generation of Muslims has a higher education rate of 22.4%.
According to the University, the rise in the rate of higher education among Muslims through the respective generations represents 800%.

- HARTZ IV (is social benefit payments).
Mr. Sarrazin said, that 40% of Muslims live of social payments from the State.
According to the University it is 9.5%.

- Mr. Sarrazin claimed, that Muslims would refuse to learn German.
The University says, that 70% of Muslim immigrants speak excellent German.

- Mr. Sarrazin said, that head-scarf is rising through generations.
The University says, that only 23% of Muslim women wear head-scarf.

- Mr. Sarrazin said, that Muslim children are not allowed to attend swimming-class in school.
The University says, this is true for 7% of the Muslim children.

- Mr Sarrazin claimed, that Muslims marry only with Muslims.
The University says, that (latest data 2008) 33.5% of Muslim men married a Christian woman.
Especially in the 2nd generation, inter-cultural and inter-religious marriages rise.

And many many more.
The counter-study relies on governmental statistics and statistics from renowned institutions like the Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung.

 

[Ropey]

Muslim men married Christian women, but did they convert? Their babies are Muslim. Now the Muslim women?

Where are the Muslim women marrying non Muslim men. This is lying by statistics. You remove half of the Muslim population when you put forward only the Muslim men marrying Christian women and converting them or at the very least, creating Muslim babies.

The women are forbidden to marry outside of their belief, (very often to the point of honor killing death) and are shunned or worse (see prior parenthesis).

So, the university is playing fast and lose with the numbers and you stand to them. That's fine because Germany knows their issues are are dealing with them in the present.

So is France, Belgium, Sweden, etc. etc. etc.

Turks? Not so much...

 

[ekrem]

According to the Professor in ordinary of the Federal Statistical Committee of Germany the publisher of the Book, Mr. Sarrazin, is a "statistical illiterate".
Kontroverses Buch: Sarrazins Zahlendreher - Politik - Tagesspiegel

Mr. Sarrazin had to resign from his post as head of the Federal Bank due to his book and his claims.

 

[Ropey]

Oh, I have no doubt that they fight each other since they disagree. Don't get me wrong. He deserved to be fired. And likely is fudging numbers.

But the pretense on the use of Muslim men marrying Christian women rather than amalgamating all Muslims marrying outside of their belief is proof of the Universities perfidy.

 

[ekrem]

(...)

You have a wrong perception of Germans.
For them it only counts, if you are productive or a burden for the economy.
The rest are details of minor value whether Muslims marry only with Muslims.
Those details of minor value will not shape German (group-spanning) perception about Muslims.

Mr. Sarrazin basically claimed with suspicious data, that the Muslim immigrants are some prototype Illiterates and that these Muslim immigrants will pass this status over to their children with the children being exempt from class advancement.
So it is important that these claims are being refuted.

 

[Ropey]

(...)

You have a wrong perception of Germans.
For them it only counts, if you are productive or a burden for the economy.
The rest are details of minor value whether Muslims marry only with Muslims.
Those details of minor value will not shape German (group-spanning) perception about Muslims.

Mr. Sarrazin basically claimed with suspicious data, that the Muslim immigrants are some prototype Illiterates and that these Muslim immigrants will pass this status over to their children with the children being exempt from class advancement.
So it is important that these claims are being refuted.

Then Germany has changed since I lived there. Yes, it is over twenty years ago but this classless society you speak of was nowhere to be seen and I doubt very much that this highly nationalistic society now only cares financially.

Yes, in the current economic times there are more harbingers of that nationalism. It comes regardless of statistics. The flow will turn into an ebb and is shown regardless of the statistics which are likely fudged on both sides.

And I see the cultural exchange here in Canada. The one that you do not see in Germany. Do you also not see it in France? How about Belgium? I could go on and on. Do you not see the response in Canada? I can post much of it from here. Sharia tossed out in an entirety and immigration laws changed along with immigration tests reformed.

Do you see that here in Canada? And highly Nationalistic Germany has none of this response?

The rest are details of minor value whether Muslims marry only with Muslims.
Those details of minor value will not shape German (group-spanning) perception about Muslims.

Minor value to you. Not to Germany it would seem.

There’s an interesting article in the Daily Mail today on a poll conducted by French newspaper, Le Monde, which found that “68 per cent of French and 75 per cent of Germans believe Muslims are 'not well integrated into society'.”

The poll also found that “42 per cent of French and 40 per cent of Germans consider the presence of Islamic communities 'a threat' to their national identities.”

Click

 

[ekrem]

Then Germany has changed since I lived there. Yes, it is over twenty years but this classless society you speak of was nowhere to be seen and I doubt very much that this highly nationalistic society now only cares financially.

Yes, in the current economic times there are more harbingers of that nationalism. It comes regardless of statistics. The flow will turn into an ebb and is shown regardless of the statistics which are likely fudged on both sides.

The reason this is happening has nothing to do with the issues being put forward, or the statistics.

You know this. And it will change nothing.

Germany isn't nationalistic. They were raised in a way, where Patriotism and Nationalism is taboo for them.
But, the younger Germans become increasingly more confident.
70% of the younger Germans believe, that there is no special relationship between Germany (Hitler thingy) and Israel, and that there are no obligations for Germans vis-a-vis the State of Israel.
Umfrage: Jeder zweite Deutsche hält Israel für aggressiv - Nahost - FOCUS Online
Once you talk with younger Germans, many of them will tell you, that they are fed-up with being held accountable for things they have not done. Germany is still besides the USA Israel's biggest source of technological pool, foreign aid and military-hardware gifts.

The group of Iranian immigrants (Muslim) are highly regarded within German society, although there are not that many Iranian immigrants. The reason for this is, that Iranian immigrants came through the process of brain-drain. Academics.
But, the overwhelmingly majority of Muslims in Germany, where brought into Germany in the 60's and 70's to work in ore-mines, steel-plants and do jobs which the Germans due to class-advancement in the 50's Wirtschaftswunder didn't want to do anymore themselves. Germany systematically hired low-education immigrants from countries like Greece, Portugal, Italy and Turkey.
Those people who were hired were not Academics, but low-level educated people to work in ore-mines etc...

The reason this is happening has nothing to do with the issues being put forward, or the statistics.

You know this. And it will change nothing.

I answered you already with the Iranian academic example.
Also, there are resentments against Europeans from the nations of the last EU expansion-round, mainly against Polish, Romanians and Bulgarians. They are Christian, but still resentments exist against them.

Now coming to the Muslims in Germany of which Turks are the biggest group. The group which were hired in the 60's and 70's to work in ore-mines.
Nowadays, they have founded companies which provide jobs for 400.000 people and have an annual turnover of 40 Billion € and re-investing 8 Billion € each year into the economy.
Türkische Unternehmer in Deutschland: Der Erfolg der Süpertürken: Mittelstand - impulse


Projections say, that by 2015, those companies will employ
- 720.000 people
- turn-over of 66 Billion €
- re-invest 15.3 Billion € into the economy.

 

[ekrem]

Minor value to you. Not to Germany it would seem.

There’s an interesting article in the Daily Mail today on a poll conducted by French newspaper, Le Monde, which found that “68 per cent of French and 75 per cent of Germans believe Muslims are 'not well integrated into society'.”

The poll also found that “42 per cent of French and 40 per cent of Germans consider the presence of Islamic communities 'a threat' to their national identities.”

Click

I don't mind France or what happens there.
In case of Germany there is the Sarazzin effect that shapes public perception, this also says the counter-study from the Humboldt University.

The counter-study says, that current islamophobe moods poll at 55%.
Before the Sarrazin debate it was 25%, constant through the years.
Page 56+57 of the counter-study.

 

[Ropey]

Minor value to you. Not to Germany it would seem.

There’s an interesting article in the Daily Mail today on a poll conducted by French newspaper, Le Monde, which found that “68 per cent of French and 75 per cent of Germans believe Muslims are 'not well integrated into society'.”

The poll also found that “42 per cent of French and 40 per cent of Germans consider the presence of Islamic communities 'a threat' to their national identities.”

Click

I don't mind France or what happens there.
In case of Germany there is the Sarazzin effect that shapes public perception, this also says the counter-study from the Humboldt University.

The counter-study says, that current islamophobe moods poll at 55%.
Before the Sarrazin debate it was 25%, constant through the years.
Page 56+57 of the counter-study.

Then the nationalistic side is moving where I said they would move. Regardless of you posting this in a US forum.

You change the momentum not one whit. And Ekrem? It sure seem to move to where I am saying it is moving. Because of many factors of which this loudmouth is not a great one.

You just quantified it

The counter-study says, that current islamophobe moods poll at 55%. Before the Sarrazin debate it was 25%, constant through the years.

Just because he is removed for being a loudmouthed governmental racist changes not the momentum of the country.

It increases it...

We can revisit the numbers in a year. The thread will still be here and I have documented it for retrieval.

I say there will be a greater preponderance to intolerance to Islam in the upcoming year. You seem to think Germany doesn't care at all other than in economic terms.

So, if the economy is more robust and the Nationalism is stronger, then you are in error.

I shall just let time see the future. Now that you are in the future with your economic view:

[I answered you already with the Iranian academic example.

Yes, it seems as though you are stuck to stuttering the same projections and looking through a crystal ball.

Good economists are not willing to look more than one or two years ahead without giving serious disclaimers.

All you did was give two examples of an economic projection tied to a few factors. There and here.

 

[ekrem]

It's a temporary trend.
Before Sarrazin showed up in the media, Greece was the punch-bag in German media.
This pictures was aired in German State Television in a late-night show, the message was: "Instead of bailing them out, we should sell them to Turkey".

The tenor was 'Greeks are unproductive inferiors who need to be bailed out by our money'.

Sarrazin wrote in his book, that intelligence is 50-to-80 per-cent something of genetics. Together with false statistics he published in his book, the whole subject was omnipresent in the media throughout late summer and the message based on Sarrazin's book was: 'Our Muslim migrants have failed and are unproductive'.
This trend will ebb away and there are enough groups in Germany to counter this trend by delivering facts to the public, a public which still values productive performance.
The islamohobe mood is related to the Sarrazin book, as the mood turned negative based on his book --> Page 56+57 in study of Humboldt University study.
He published his book in times where he was Head of the German FED. That's why the book was in the media and was discussed this intense.

Would Bernanke publish a book, where he claims, that 40% of Irish immigrants live of welfare-payments then this would also have an impact on the perception of Irish immigrants in the USA.

 

[Ropey]

Would Bernanke publish a book, where he claims, that 40% of Irish immigrants live of welfare-payments then this would also have an impact on the perception of Irish immigrants in the USA.

Doesn't matter. We're not talking about Bernanke. You are only interested in Germany, remember?

 

[ekrem]

Actually, Ropey, I am not really talking with you.
I like to talk with myself and with the general public.
The Bernanke example was to make Mr. Sarrazin explainable to Americans as Mr. Sarrazin held exactly the Bernanke position, when he published his book.

The whole thing will ebb down again and there won't be events of Muslim immigrants in Germany getting pushed around in Le-Pen or Wilders style.