Harvard study: Hey, maybe we’re placing too much emphasis on a college education

[MaggieMae]

Proof education is meaningless from the right wing? Who would have thought?

You can't go blaming only the right wing for the slow demise of quality education. It's a combination of poor parenting, poor teaching, and piss poor priorities set for academic excellence. Even wealthier Republican parents are seeing their kids graduate from high school, then college, and, as someone said, still clueless about the real world. They are shocked to find that the boss actually scrutinizes their performance and doesn't award gold stars just for showing up.

Let's not make education political, folks. It affects all of us.

 

[chanel]

Not half as much as a 20 million dollar gym and performing arts center. Our school threw out about a half mil of shop equipment to make room for the "child care" class that never materialized; the TV studio, that doesn't work, and piano classes.

Wasted money and cheated kids. Check the stats.

 

[MaggieMae]

A new report released by Harvard Wednesday states in some of the strongest terms yet that such a “college for all” emphasis may actually harm many American students – keeping them from having a smooth transition from adolescence to adulthood and a viable career…

“It would be fine if we had an alternative system [for students who don’t get college degrees], but we’re virtually unique among industrialized countries in terms of not having another system and relying so heavily on higher education,” says Robert Schwartz, who heads the Pathways to Prosperity project at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education.

The United States can learn from other countries, particularly in northern Europe, Professor Schwartz says. In Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway, and Switzerland, for instance, between 40 and 70 percent of high-schoolers opt for programs that combine classroom and workplace learning, many of them involving apprenticeships. These pathways result in a “qualification” that has real currency in the labor market…

“If we persist with the illusion that everyone is going to college, then we’re cheating those kids who aren’t going,” Professor Ferguson says. “A majority of the workforce does not have a college degree, and a majority of the things those people do are going to continue not requiring a college degree.”

Harvard study: Hey, maybe we’re placing too much emphasis on a college education Hot Air

Really? No shit?

Score one for common sense.

The question is: how do we fix the ridiculous mindset?

It's called Vo-Tech in HS

And we have colleges that teach to a specific job, but they get handcuffed by the req to get a degree.

When my wife was in college learning to do Medical coding and billing. Did she need to take accounting? A psyic course? English?

No, no and no.

But to get her di[ploma, not a degree, just the diploma, she had to spend money on all those course.

It's the liberal elitist mentality that you need a degree and you must take certain courses, no matter what, to be as good as them.

No, it isn't a "liberal mentality" either. What you're talking about is probably affirmative action. I would say that 99.99% of "conservatives" have the "elitist" mentality that their children need a college degree. In fact, probably far more so than liberal "elitists" because my experience has been that the latter are less image conscious. Affirmative action was simply a program to provide an OPPORTUNITY for middle class and poorer students to go to college, but they of course would be turned down because they couldn't afford tuition.

 

[Samson]

Only if they were shitty programs designed to make workers and not thinkers

"thinkers"



You mean.....like you?

 

[Truthmatters]

Not half as much as a 20 million dollar gym and performing arts center. Our school threw out about a half mil of shop equipment to make room for the "child care" class that never materialized; the TV studio, that doesn't work, and piano classes.

Wasted money and cheated kids. Check the stats.

In shop class there are dangers that they have to insure.

Why do you think schools dont do drivers ed anymore?

 

[MaggieMae]

Proof education is meaningless from the right wing? Who would have thought?

Hey moron

It's a study from Harvard. Any further to the left and they fall off the edge.

That's nonsense. It's practically an old wive's tale. Plenty of Republicans are Harvard grads, George W. Bush, for one. The elitist image of Harvard has to do with its alumni legacies, many of whom sit on the admissions board, and they sure aren't all liberals.

 

[MaggieMae]

By giving schools more money to set up these programs.

You know throwing money at the problem.

The type of thing the right screams about every time someone tries to fix our schools.

Why would we need to throw money at the schools when we already spend more than any other nation in the world? What school districts need to do is adjust their priorities.

Don't need to do either.

there's tons of schools that will teach a trade. Liberals need to break the mindset that a bricklayer is not as worthy as a lawyer.

Why do some of you insist on politicizing this subject? I know plenty of conservatives who are such holier-than-thous that they won't even allow their own children to date anyone who isn't college bound. Are you nuts? Grow up and enter the real world.

 

[Samson]

Not half as much as a 20 million dollar gym and performing arts center. Our school threw out about a half mil of shop equipment to make room for the "child care" class that never materialized; the TV studio, that doesn't work, and piano classes.

Wasted money and cheated kids. Check the stats.

Public school has no business teaching trades, or teaching college. Public School is for teaching the Basics: Government, English, Math, and Science. A normal kid takes about 10 years to get this, between the ages of 5-15. By the time the kid is 17, he's either got it, or never will.

To take vocational classes, or college classes, students should go to a vocational school or to a university.

To pay for their educations, they should work for the local, state, or federal government (social services, teacher aid, National Guard, etc., etc.)

 

[MaggieMae]

The right excoriates teachers and pays them dirt wages.

What, are you living in 1985 still? Where are you getting this idea that teachers get paid dirt wages? Teachers' salaries and benefits have increased substantially over the past couple decades. In fact, they're part of the reason why states like California, Illinois, New York, and New Jersey are headed towards bankruptcy right now. California has the highest paid teachers in the country and they rank near the bottom when it comes to education quality.

I think she meant salaries offered right out of college which are substantially less than other salary offerings for other BA graduates pursuing other disciplines. They do get automatic increases, however, and if the stay long enough become tenured, which is where the problems begin with bad teachers. You can't get rid of them unless and until they are paid on merit, AND paid accordingly. But I see that slowly beginning to happen, much to the chagrin of the teachers union.

 

[MaggieMae]

Only if they were shitty programs designed to make workers and not thinkers

You think today's public schools teach kids to think?

They're not taught how to think; they're taught what to think. They're taught how to pass a state mandated exam.

Besides, there is a need for workers as well. The world needs ditch diggers too.

Actually most college courses don't teach students how to think or learn either, they teach talking points that are repeated back on tests. The result is uneducated degree holders with no skills.

I like the idea of grading professors by the students and making it available to new students to decide whose class they wish to attend. That way, a student who really wants to learn will choose the professor who is tough (maybe the one who employs student/teacher interaction on the subject rather than lecturing), and the student who chooses the professor who lectures which allows the student to do personal stuff at his laptop would be the one who probably ends up still living at home with mom and dad into his late 20's. (Mom & Dad should get in on those choices, too.)

 

[MaggieMae]

OK. A lesson from the real world. From the time I was little, I took apart things, sometimes even managed to put them back together again. Finished high school. Went to work in a mill, and soon was working on the equipment. Realizing that I needed more training, I took welding, blueprint reading, college algebra, trig, and geometry. At night, of course, as I was working during the day. Straight A's. And it was fun. Being a rock packer since I had pockets, I decided to take an introductory course in Geology. Geology of the North Cascades. And was hooked.

Dropped out of regular good paying work, and for about six years, took whatever job I could take that matched classes, and, before getting hit with the '72 downturn, ended up with about 3 years of Geology. After '72, picked up my tools again, and worked up till now as a Millwright.

Was the education wasted? Not at all. The training I recieved in thinking problems through has served me well in my career, and now at the end of it, earn in the top 5% of the non-construction millwrights.

Yes, we need more trades training. We need to merchandise it more aggressively. And we need to respect those tradesmen. I have had it expressed here by many on the right that I should not be as aggressive in my opinions as they are, for I have no degree. Even when they obviously have done no research on the subject. Because one is a tradesman does not mean that the intellectual development stopped.

There is another point here. As a tradesman, I have seen the development of the computerization of industry from the git-go. Were I to be planning another twenty years of work, I would need to go back to school for at least another year. As we extend our lifespans, the good part of it, and push up retirement ages, we had better address the fact that the technology moves fast enough now that every twenty years, there needs to be some catchup training. Intensive, not after work type, training. Not a problem for me, but you that are in your twenties and thirties might be thinking of this matter.

I would say that technology is moving so fast that training will need to be done almost annually. Just in the field of computer communication, it's hard for employees to make a smooth transition to a new and improved system with several new applications added and how it all applies to the company and their jobs without at least a couple of days of training.

 

[MaggieMae]

My husband is a plumber Old Rocks. He needs to do several hours a year of continuing education to keep his license. You are right that people must continue to learn. It just doesn't have to cost $40K a year.

These are NJ's graduation requirements. There are only so many hours in a day.

The new high school rules require 120 credits for graduation -- up from 110 -- and an infusion of "21st century skills" across all content areas. Three years of math will be phased in for students, starting with Algebra 1 for current high school freshmen. Geometry will be added for the 2010-2011 ninth-grade class and "a third year of math that builds upon these two courses" will be required for the incoming freshman class of 2012-13.

Three years of lab science are also now required, starting with biology for current freshmen. A second year of science -- either chemistry, physics or environmental science, will be added for the incoming freshmen of 2010-11; and a third lab science course will be required for the class that begins high school in 2012-13.

The incoming freshmen of 2010-11 must also take a half-year of economics and financial literacy under the new requirements.

Three years in the making, the new rules will also require students to take up to seven course ending exams in specific subject areas

This is in addition to: 2 years of world languages, 4 years of health/phys ed., 1 year visual/performing arts; 1 year of career ed/consumer skills; and electives

Where does a shop class fit in?

I just gave a copy of this study to the head of our math dept. They are now in discussion about scheduling struggling math/language students for TWO PERIODS of math/English next year. Kids who hate school will soon hate it twice as much.

We had an excellent Vo-Tech school in town which prepared students for work in the community. Our economy is based on fishing, boating, building, and tourism. They had courses in marine mechanics, plumbing, electric, hospitality, etc.

A few years ago, they dropped the word "Vocational" from their name and now are called a "technical high school". They teach marine biology and TV broadcasting and all kinds of cool classes. But they all require further degrees in college. The kids must maintain a clean discipline record and a certain GPA or they are kicked back to the regular public high school. What a travesty.

No extra is money is needed. We just need to refocus our priorities and consider kids' strengths and interests. But I honestly don't see it happening. "Tracking" is code word for racism in the education field. Sad, but true.

The NJ outline is designed for college-bound students, and there should be some option for those who either have no intention of attending college (for whatever reason) or who wish to pursue a lucrative job right out of high school. Don't they offer what in my state is called a "Commercial Course" which doesn't require all the heavy duty math? I can understand voc being dropped, as it has in most high schools here too, but non-college options should definitely be available too.

 

[MaggieMae]

No, idiot, by allowing businesses to set up, and run, the programs, just like they do in Europe.

And to pay for them? Or use socialist funds?


We had somewhat of that kind of system of Vo-Tech schools here in KY. They got sucked into the community college system about 10 years or so ago and now cost 10X as much.
And no longer provide the vocational type of education they once did.

The Vo-Techs were great but that was too much of a problem for Community Colleges, who are largely becoming 4 year state colleges.

And no place to learn how to fix air conditioners anymore outside of private schools.

In the city where I live, the high school has a vocational program and also a culinary arts program, and we have an excellent community college. They're lucky kids.

 

[MaggieMae]

And to pay for them? Or use socialist funds?


We had somewhat of that kind of system of Vo-Tech schools here in KY. They got sucked into the community college system about 10 years or so ago and now cost 10X as much.
And no longer provide the vocational type of education they once did.

If the business community wants to get the benefit of the program they have to invest in it. I might be willing to allow businesses willing to do so to claim a tax exemption even though it goes against my policy of not using taxes to shape policy.

No tax exemption needed. If it's a cost they bear to train potential employees, they deduct it. If they fund a non-profit, they deduct it.

In order to turn it around, it will involve a public and private partnership, without politicizing anything. I don't remember who coined the phrase "It takes a village..." but in the case of education, that is most assuredly true.

 

[MaggieMae]

There is a philosophy in American education that we do not prepare the kids for "something"; we prepare them for "anything and everything". Theoretical magical thinking. What we are doing, is preparing most of them for "nothing".

I teach about 60 seniors right now. Only a handful have applied to four year colleges. Yet if you asked them what they are doing after high school, 90% of them would say "college". They have not even taken the SATs. They are PROGRAMMED with that response, even though they have no idea what it entails.

Many will go on to community college and perhaps a few will finish. But community college is becoming nothing more than the 13th grade, simply because the kids have been offered no other path. It is causing "arrested development" as the Harvard study has claimed.

False promises and wasted tax dollars. If a teacher were ever truly honest with a kid who had a 4th grade reading level that college was not a viable option, he or she would find a letter in their file with a recommendation for "re-education/sensitivity camp". So we lie and wish them luck.

There is alot of specified training at community college level.

Teaching kids about the world is not teaching them nothing.

Schooling only provides the tools. It's up to the students to learn about the complexities of the world once they grasp the basics.

 

[MaggieMae]

Not half as much as a 20 million dollar gym and performing arts center. Our school threw out about a half mil of shop equipment to make room for the "child care" class that never materialized; the TV studio, that doesn't work, and piano classes.

Wasted money and cheated kids. Check the stats.

It's sickening. I'm so glad you started this thread, even though it's veered a little off course.

 

[MaggieMae]

Not half as much as a 20 million dollar gym and performing arts center. Our school threw out about a half mil of shop equipment to make room for the "child care" class that never materialized; the TV studio, that doesn't work, and piano classes.

Wasted money and cheated kids. Check the stats.

In shop class there are dangers that they have to insure.

Why do you think schools dont do drivers ed anymore?

Mine does. Once again, it's up to school boards to decide how to spend their budgets. This year, one of the big debates is over whether to install seat belts in all the school buses or add more computers in grammar school classes! The debate isn't over, yet, so stay tuned. But I know which way I'd vote.

 

[chanel]

Community colleges serve a purpose. However, here's the problem:

New Jersey's community colleges also saw the smallest increase in enrollment in the past five years last fall, with a few of the colleges losing enrollment. In 2009-10, almost 260,000 students enrolled in credit programs, with another 100,000 taking noncredit courses.

Grabill said only 25 percent of students who complete remedial courses go on to take credit courses, which means most students are spending time and money working toward a degree they never get. She said one issue is how to assist students who test far below the college readiness level.

New Jersey county colleges launch effort to increase graduation rate - pressofAtlanticCity.com: Atlantic County News

These are students were not academically inclined in high school, and now are expected to do college level work. For a huge number of kids, it is just an expensive (and painful) extension of high school. Imagine if those kids had been given an apprenticeship opportunity in high school instead.

When politicians and bureaucrats read the words "college readiness" they raise the standards for high school. Then the kids fall further behind...

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I had 22 months of vo-tech education and another 5,000 or so classroom hours of additional tech training in my life. I was making $75/hr when I quit working a few years ago.

But then I am absolutely brilliant in technical matters.

I can see that from the way you get those headphones to stay on your tiny head.

 

[uscitizen]

I had 22 months of vo-tech education and another 5,000 or so classroom hours of additional tech training in my life. I was making $75/hr when I quit working a few years ago.

But then I am absolutely brilliant in technical matters.

I can see that from the way you get those headphones to stay on your tiny head.

We Beta Triangulans are that way