Guns. I'm just throwing my point of view out there. If I'm wrong then explain it to me.

[grainbely]

Except, that you should consider incorporating the Constitutional aspect and the historical aspects into your reasoning as well.

The left has very little loyalty to the constitution as written. When you tell the left wing "but the constitution says..." I honestly believe most of them roll their eyes. I think most conservatives know that. That's why I made my argument elsewhere.

The right cherry picks the constitution as well. Also, it can be amended. If it becomes clear that the over supply of guns and the childish way with which the less responsible or less honest gun users is a problem then this can change. Pointing to the 2nd amendment isn't a silver bullet argument. There are very few of those.

 

[iceberg]

Except, that you should consider incorporating the Constitutional aspect and the historical aspects into your reasoning as well.

The left has very little loyalty to the constitution as written. When you tell the left wing "but the constitution says..." I honestly believe most of them roll their eyes. I think most conservatives know that. That's why I made my argument elsewhere.

and when it comes to gun control, the left also doesn't appreciate "due process". then again when it comes to much of anything around laws, they're not a fan of due process.

 

[iceberg]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, period.

The real problem is crime, and the people that commit violent crimes and "gun crimes". Most of the time they are repeat offenders, and people that have shown a history of violence. Our real problem is the "thug culture", and a justice system that lets them off the hook all too often and puts thugs right back on the streets. The solution is much stricter sentencing for violent crimes, we need to keep them locked up most of their adult lives. We need to build bigger prisons and keep them all locked up. We also need to keep mentally ill that have a tendency towards violence closely monitored and the dangerous ones in mental hospitals. Also crack down on illegal immigration since many gang bangers are illegals.

I think you are missing a HUGE part of the "problem" as well. And that is:

"Why are there so many turning to crime in the first place?"

Locking them up, will do nothing to solve that. It will only serve to put more people in jail. Figure out the "why" and solve that, the rest becomes much easier to manage, if not "solve" all together.

The majority of violent crime perps are blacks and Latinos. You may want to look there and ask them why they turn to crime. As I said the real problem is the "thug culture", which includes TV and music, etc. sensationalizing such violence. Some people may just be too dumb to separate fiction from real life.

But the answer is most definitely to increase prison sentences. Keeping thugs off the streets prevents them from committing more crime. We also need the death penalty for crimes like murder and rape standard.

You say that the "real problem is the "thug culture"" and that "The majority of violent crime perps are blacks and Latinos. You may want to look there and ask them why they turn to crime." I have looked into this, have you? I know, at least intellectually, why many of these people turn to crime. Do you? Have you bothered to do the research to support and understand your position? Have you bothered to find out the "why"?

No, I'm not going to waste my time investigating "why" thugs are thugs. The government should not waste its time either. We are a nation of laws, and people that break them should be held accountable. Giving them a pass because you'd rather look at the reasons they commit crimes is dangerous to society. It's exactly why we have repeat offenders and countless victims that should had never become victims.

i'm all for doing studies to find out why people commit crimes.

but the person who did it needs to be in jail while it happens.

 

[oldsoul]

Have you bothered to find out the "why"?

People turn to crime because they are desperate and lack better options.

So, let's see if we can attack THAT problem and work to solve it so people don't feel like they don't have options. Wouldn't that be far better than just "lock 'em up"?

 

[grainbely]

Except, that you should consider incorporating the Constitutional aspect and the historical aspects into your reasoning as well.

The left has very little loyalty to the constitution as written. When you tell the left wing..."but the constitution says..." I honestly believe most of them roll their eyes. I think most conservatives know that. That's why I made my argument elsewhere.

The left hate the Constitution, it limits their ability to control people. Liberalism is so popular it has to be forced onto the people via threats, fines, and bans.

Incorrect. Stop making up bullshit. We are allowed to be critical of interpretations of it or the language itself. "The left are evil gay commie baby killers." You soung like a ******* idiot.

 

[oldsoul]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, period.

The real problem is crime, and the people that commit violent crimes and "gun crimes". Most of the time they are repeat offenders, and people that have shown a history of violence. Our real problem is the "thug culture", and a justice system that lets them off the hook all too often and puts thugs right back on the streets. The solution is much stricter sentencing for violent crimes, we need to keep them locked up most of their adult lives. We need to build bigger prisons and keep them all locked up. We also need to keep mentally ill that have a tendency towards violence closely monitored and the dangerous ones in mental hospitals. Also crack down on illegal immigration since many gang bangers are illegals.

I think you are missing a HUGE part of the "problem" as well. And that is:

"Why are there so many turning to crime in the first place?"

Locking them up, will do nothing to solve that. It will only serve to put more people in jail. Figure out the "why" and solve that, the rest becomes much easier to manage, if not "solve" all together.

The majority of violent crime perps are blacks and Latinos. You may want to look there and ask them why they turn to crime. As I said the real problem is the "thug culture", which includes TV and music, etc. sensationalizing such violence. Some people may just be too dumb to separate fiction from real life.

But the answer is most definitely to increase prison sentences. Keeping thugs off the streets prevents them from committing more crime. We also need the death penalty for crimes like murder and rape standard.

You say that the "real problem is the "thug culture"" and that "The majority of violent crime perps are blacks and Latinos. You may want to look there and ask them why they turn to crime." I have looked into this, have you? I know, at least intellectually, why many of these people turn to crime. Do you? Have you bothered to do the research to support and understand your position? Have you bothered to find out the "why"?

No, I'm not going to waste my time investigating "why" thugs are thugs. The government should not waste its time either. We are a nation of laws, and people that break them should be held accountable. Giving them a pass because you'd rather look at the reasons they commit crimes is dangerous to society. It's exactly why we have repeat offenders and countless victims that should had never become victims.

So, are you saying that you don't care that these people don't see any other options? Most of them are just trying to survive and provide for themselves and their families. Are you saying that matters nothing to you? If so, then there is nothing that I, or anyone else can say. THAT would be a very cold and unfeeling way to look at the world. I pity those who do.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Except, that you should consider incorporating the Constitutional aspect and the historical aspects into your reasoning as well.

The left has very little loyalty to the constitution as written. When you tell the left wing "but the constitution says..." I honestly believe most of them roll their eyes. I think most conservatives know that. That's why I made my argument elsewhere.

Obviously not since they infringe on the second at every chance.

 

[Pogo]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

Yeah there's no "gun problem". We don't have James Holmses and Jared Loughners and Adam Lanzas at all. These are all staged in New Mexico.

What a self-delusional asshole. We are a gun-OBSESSED nation. We're a culture of violence and death and with it paramiliary cops. It's on every TV, in every movie theater (sometimes even live) and in every other medium. But we have "no gun problem". What a dipshit.

You do have a point that it's not comparable to drugs. Nobody takes a bag of coke into a movie theater and overdoses a bunch of strangers. So there's that.

No, there is not a "gun problem". There is a "violence problem" though.

That's what I just posted. We are a culture of murder and death and our instrument of choice happens to be guns. That's undeniable. If we were a sword culture that worshiped murder and death, then we'd have a "sword problem". Same thing.

To expand the same thought, it's also a masculinity problem. Without Googling into history name me five mass shooters who were female. Hell, name even one.

By that I mean that there is a growing trend of "numbness" towards violence, a "disassociation" from what one is doing, and how it affects, and effects others. (If you are unclear about the difference between affect, and effect, please look them up, it's important).

Again, you're echoing the same thing I noted. Exactly right --- if this 'numbness' were not in place it would be far more difficult to walk into a shopping mall and start picking off random targets. I have no need to "look it up", it's exactly what I've been pointing out since literally the day I joined this site, and before; that this isn't a legislative issue, it's a spiritualistic one. A direct result of our social values.

--- Which I illustrated in pointing out media glorification of violence. That was the whole point of that citation.

 

[grainbely]

Except, that you should consider incorporating the Constitutional aspect and the historical aspects into your reasoning as well.

The left has very little loyalty to the constitution as written. When you tell the left wing..."but the constitution says..." I honestly believe most of them roll their eyes. I think most conservatives know that. That's why I made my argument elsewhere.

The left hate the Constitution, it limits their ability to control people. Liberalism is so popular it has to be forced onto the people via threats, fines, and bans.

More specifically it limits the POWER of the Government.

See, most, if not all, "liberals" look to Government to "fix" problems, while "conservatives" (the real ones) look to the INDIVIDUAL. That is part of the trouble with reconciling the differences between the two "sides".

When you're an average American hovering the poverty line, you need something on your side to protect against the tyranny of big or unethical business as much as the government it self. Sometimes it is the constitution, but business finds a way to carry out grey area or legal assaults on people and communities that cant fight back. Are you aware of the injustices which plague and hold down lower class people that are just trying to make it in life? It happens and because of the few resources and poor education it sometimes just doesn't get coverage. The people may not even know it's happening or that it's a serious transgression.

 

[Pete7469]

one other thing you are forgetting is that a firearm is a very simple device....any jimmyearl with some metal, a bench lathe and 12 ton press and some know how, can manufacture a pretty decent quality firarm in his garage...google "khyber pass copy"

I have pointed that out in the past as well.

If the meat puppet ****** could have waved his magic dildo and made all the guns in the country disappear, the next day everyone with a handful of files, a vise, and a piece of steel would be busy making more guns.

They're not going away no matter what law is passed.

 

[oldsoul]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

Yeah there's no "gun problem". We don't have James Holmses and Jared Loughners and Adam Lanzas at all. These are all staged in New Mexico.

What a self-delusional asshole. We are a gun-OBSESSED nation. We're a culture of violence and death and with it paramiliary cops. It's on every TV, in every movie theater (sometimes even live) and in every other medium. But we have "no gun problem". What a dipshit.

You do have a point that it's not comparable to drugs. Nobody takes a bag of coke into a movie theater and overdoses a bunch of strangers. So there's that.

No, there is not a "gun problem". There is a "violence problem" though.

That's what I just posted. We are a culture of murder and death and our instrument of choice happens to be guns. That's undeniable. If we were a sword culture that worshiped murder and death, then we'd have a "sword problem". Same thing.

To expand the same thought, it's also a masculinity problem. Without Googling into history name me five mass shooters who were female. Hell, name even one.

By that I mean that there is a growing trend of "numbness" towards violence, a "disassociation" from what one is doing, and how it affects, and effects others. (If you are unclear about the difference between affect, and effect, please look them up, it's important).

Again, you're echoing the same thing I noted. Exactly right --- if this 'numbness' were not in place it would be far more difficult to walk into a shopping mall and start picking off random targets. I have no need to "look it up", it's exactly what I've been pointing out since literally the day I joined this site, and before; that this isn't a legislative issue, it's a spiritualistic one. A direct result of our social values.

--- Which I illustrated in pointing out media glorification of violence. That was the whole point of that citation.

Then, obviously, the two of us have a verbage difference. It is quite clear to be at this point we basically agree.
As for the "look it up" part, it was not for you (as you state that you have a grasp of the difference), I understand that there is a rather large audience (potentially) for my posts, therefore, I thought it prudent to point out that there is a difference between the words. Far too many use them interchangeably.

 

[Pogo]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

Yeah there's no "gun problem". We don't have James Holmses and Jared Loughners and Adam Lanzas at all. These are all staged in New Mexico.

What a self-delusional asshole. We are a gun-OBSESSED nation. We're a culture of violence and death and with it paramiliary cops. It's on every TV, in every movie theater (sometimes even live) and in every other medium. But we have "no gun problem". What a dipshit.

You do have a point that it's not comparable to drugs. Nobody takes a bag of coke into a movie theater and overdoses a bunch of strangers. So there's that.

No, there is not a "gun problem". There is a "violence problem" though.

That's what I just posted. We are a culture of murder and death and our instrument of choice happens to be guns. That's undeniable. If we were a sword culture that worshiped murder and death, then we'd have a "sword problem". Same thing.

To expand the same thought, it's also a masculinity problem. Without Googling into history name me five mass shooters who were female. Hell, name even one.

By that I mean that there is a growing trend of "numbness" towards violence, a "disassociation" from what one is doing, and how it affects, and effects others. (If you are unclear about the difference between affect, and effect, please look them up, it's important).

Again, you're echoing the same thing I noted. Exactly right --- if this 'numbness' were not in place it would be far more difficult to walk into a shopping mall and start picking off random targets. I have no need to "look it up", it's exactly what I've been pointing out since literally the day I joined this site, and before; that this isn't a legislative issue, it's a spiritualistic one. A direct result of our social values.

--- Which I illustrated in pointing out media glorification of violence. That was the whole point of that citation.

Then, obviously, the two of us have a verbage difference. It is quite clear to be at this point we basically agree.
As for the "look it up" part, it was not for you (as you state that you have a grasp of the difference), I understand that there is a rather large audience (potentially) for my posts, therefore, I thought it prudent to point out that there is a difference between the words. Far too many use them interchangeably.

A salient observation. Blanket statements and jumping to conclusions are two of my most loathed fallacies.

Your point (in another post) on getting to the "why" of crime is also spot-on. We cannot proceed on anything if we turn a blind eye to the "why". If we approached life like that we'd still be living in caves foraging for nuts and berries. Those who would ignore the 'why' hold us back and let the disease fester.

 

[oldsoul]

Except, that you should consider incorporating the Constitutional aspect and the historical aspects into your reasoning as well.

The left has very little loyalty to the constitution as written. When you tell the left wing..."but the constitution says..." I honestly believe most of them roll their eyes. I think most conservatives know that. That's why I made my argument elsewhere.

The left hate the Constitution, it limits their ability to control people. Liberalism is so popular it has to be forced onto the people via threats, fines, and bans.

More specifically it limits the POWER of the Government.

See, most, if not all, "liberals" look to Government to "fix" problems, while "conservatives" (the real ones) look to the INDIVIDUAL. That is part of the trouble with reconciling the differences between the two "sides".

When you're an average American hovering the poverty line, you need something on your side to protect against the tyranny of big or unethical business as much as the government it self. Sometimes it is the constitution, but business finds a way to carry out grey area or legal assaults on people and communities that cant fight back. Are you aware of the injustices which plague and hold down lower class people that are just trying to make it in life? It happens and because of the few resources and poor education it sometimes just doesn't get coverage. The people may not even know it's happening or that it's a serious transgression.

We are in agreement here. There are serious barriers in place to many, especially the poor. That is the issue we need to focus more on, not the end result of those barriers. However, the end result gets far more ratings on the news and is much more sensational, so it gets more time. A real sad testament to the way our media sees their role in the greater context of society. Yes, they are in the business of selling commercials and have to prioritize accordingly. However, they can also be the voice to those who have no voice. A role which they seem to have cast aside in pursuit of wealth.

 

[2aguy]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

Yeah there's no "gun problem". We don't have James Holmses and Jared Loughners and Adam Lanzas at all. These are all staged in New Mexico.

What a self-delusional asshole. We are a gun-OBSESSED nation. We're a culture of violence and death and with it paramiliary cops. It's on every TV, in every movie theater (sometimes even live) and in every other medium. But we have "no gun problem". What a dipshit.

You do have a point that it's not comparable to drugs. Nobody takes a bag of coke into a movie theater and overdoses a bunch of strangers. So there's that.

No...we aren't .....we have close to 600 million guns and our gun murder rate went down 49%.....our gun crime rate went down 75%....our violent crime rate went down 72% from the 1990s when we had 200 million guns in private hands to now when we have close to 600 million guns in private hands.

We have a criminal justice system problem where judges and prosecutors are not locking up actual, violent criminals who use guns repeatedly...they let them out over and over again...

Law abiding gun owners are not out shooting people.....we have a tiny segment of the population of 320 million people who will not obey the law....

 

[oldsoul]

one other thing you are forgetting is that a firearm is a very simple device....any jimmyearl with some metal, a bench lathe and 12 ton press and some know how, can manufacture a pretty decent quality firarm in his garage...google "khyber pass copy"

I have pointed that out in the past as well.

If the meat puppet ****** could have waved his magic dildo and made all the guns in the country disappear, the next day everyone with a handful of files, a vise, and a piece of steel would be busy making more guns.

They're not going away no matter what law is passed.

I can only assume you are referring to President Obama. If this is the case, show some respect. The man was OUR President, I disagree with him on many things, that does not change the fact that he is a former President, and deserves the respect that office commands. I really don't care how much you hate him, show the OFFICE some respect at least.

 

[2aguy]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, period.

The real problem is crime, and the people that commit violent crimes and "gun crimes". Most of the time they are repeat offenders, and people that have shown a history of violence. Our real problem is the "thug culture", and a justice system that lets them off the hook all too often and puts thugs right back on the streets. The solution is much stricter sentencing for violent crimes, we need to keep them locked up most of their adult lives. We need to build bigger prisons and keep them all locked up. We also need to keep mentally ill that have a tendency towards violence closely monitored and the dangerous ones in mental hospitals. Also crack down on illegal immigration since many gang bangers are illegals.

I think you are missing a HUGE part of the "problem" as well. And that is:

"Why are there so many turning to crime in the first place?"

Locking them up, will do nothing to solve that. It will only serve to put more people in jail. Figure out the "why" and solve that, the rest becomes much easier to manage, if not "solve" all together.

There is a tiny number of people commiting the majority of the violent crimes....we need to lock them up for 30 years...to keep innocent people safe from murder, rape and robbery, and as you do that, then you can work on the single teenage mother problem that is fueling the criminal world...

 

[oldsoul]

You are wrong.

Number one, there is no "gun problem", so it's a waste to compare it to drugs.

The right to bear arms is a constitutional right, period.

The real problem is crime, and the people that commit violent crimes and "gun crimes". Most of the time they are repeat offenders, and people that have shown a history of violence. Our real problem is the "thug culture", and a justice system that lets them off the hook all too often and puts thugs right back on the streets. The solution is much stricter sentencing for violent crimes, we need to keep them locked up most of their adult lives. We need to build bigger prisons and keep them all locked up. We also need to keep mentally ill that have a tendency towards violence closely monitored and the dangerous ones in mental hospitals. Also crack down on illegal immigration since many gang bangers are illegals.

I think you are missing a HUGE part of the "problem" as well. And that is:

"Why are there so many turning to crime in the first place?"

Locking them up, will do nothing to solve that. It will only serve to put more people in jail. Figure out the "why" and solve that, the rest becomes much easier to manage, if not "solve" all together.

There is a tiny number of people commiting the majority of the violent crimes....we need to lock them up for 30 years...to keep innocent people safe from murder, rape and robbery, and as you do that, then you can work on the single teenage mother problem that is fueling the criminal world...

I agree that it must be a two pronged approach.

 

[2aguy]

Except, that you should consider incorporating the Constitutional aspect and the historical aspects into your reasoning as well.

The left has very little loyalty to the constitution as written. When you tell the left wing..."but the constitution says..." I honestly believe most of them roll their eyes. I think most conservatives know that. That's why I made my argument elsewhere.

The right wipes their ass with with the constitution OTHER than the 2nd . Don't think so? Just ask them about state issued voter ID and watch them pull a 180 on people's con rights .

We have a probleM with crazy and criminals getting guns . All guns are born "legal" Gun nut states make it too easy for them to fall into the illega market . So easy that even teenagers can score an illegal gun. So you are right about the supply .

There is no Constitutional issue with voter i.d.....it is provided free of charge.....

No...criminals break the law, break into gun stores, train cars, homes and cars to steal them, and when they are caught, left wing judges and prosecutors let them back on the streets...

 

[Pogo]

Except, that you should consider incorporating the Constitutional aspect and the historical aspects into your reasoning as well.

The left has very little loyalty to the constitution as written. When you tell the left wing..."but the constitution says..." I honestly believe most of them roll their eyes. I think most conservatives know that. That's why I made my argument elsewhere.

The left hate the Constitution, it limits their ability to control people. Liberalism is so popular it has to be forced onto the people via threats, fines, and bans.

More specifically it limits the POWER of the Government.

See, most, if not all, "liberals" look to Government to "fix" problems, while "conservatives" (the real ones) look to the INDIVIDUAL. That is part of the trouble with reconciling the differences between the two "sides".

When you're an average American hovering the poverty line, you need something on your side to protect against the tyranny of big or unethical business as much as the government it self. Sometimes it is the constitution, but business finds a way to carry out grey area or legal assaults on people and communities that cant fight back. Are you aware of the injustices which plague and hold down lower class people that are just trying to make it in life? It happens and because of the few resources and poor education it sometimes just doesn't get coverage. The people may not even know it's happening or that it's a serious transgression.

We are in agreement here. There are serious barriers in place to many, especially the poor. That is the issue we need to focus more on, not the end result of those barriers. However, the end result gets far more ratings on the news and is much more sensational, so it gets more time. A real sad testament to the way our media sees their role in the greater context of society. Yes, they are in the business of selling commercials and have to prioritize accordingly. However, they can also be the voice to those who have no voice. A role which they seem to have cast aside in pursuit of wealth.

Yes, "if it bleeds it leads" is another point well taken. I had entertainment media in mind but sensationalist news is a key player as well, kudos for pointing that out.

It makes me wonder on a broader scale whether we're desensitized in more ways that just violence and disaster-drama. Whether the media fixation on mining emotions (in general) just because it sells, doesn't rob us of a more rational and more profound part of our intellect, simply because the Pusher has addicted us to salivating at emotion....in other words whether it's decaying our very ability to think..

 

[iceberg]

Have you bothered to find out the "why"?

People turn to crime because they are desperate and lack better options.

So, let's see if we can attack THAT problem and work to solve it so people don't feel like they don't have options. Wouldn't that be far better than just "lock 'em up"?

isn't locking them up for making the wrong choices doing 2 things?

1) teaching personal accountability
2) teaches them to find other ways

if you give everyone a soft spot to land, is that helping them?