Guns gave us a civilized society

[Quantum Windbag]

So why are we trying to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons? Aren't they the ultimate gun?

Won't they give Iran a civilized society based on the premise of this thread?

The same reason we want to make sure people who are likely to go on killing sprees from owning guns, they are batshit crazy.

 

[Billo_Really]

That is not my contention at all, my contention is that guns neutralize force so that reason has a better chance to win the argument. The best example of this is the cold war doctrine of mutually assured destruction. I thought it was ridiculous at the time, and actually expected it to fail at any moment. Instead, because two bitter enemies both knew that they could not win a fight, they talked, and they eventually figured out a way to come together and work toward a common goal for no other reason that force was removed from the equation.

Ghandi didn't use a gun to take over a country.

MLK didn't use a gun to fight oppression and give us civil rights.

Jesus didn't use a gun, yet the ruling authority at the time considered him a threat.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Tell you what, just to humor you, I will agree to that. It still leaves me free to point out that guns gave us the rule of law because they make it harder for rich people to get away with breaking the law.

Guns won't stop rich people. Not when they have the power to write the laws. Or change the laws in their favor. Plus they control people who have bigger guns.

The one thing we have in our favor that rich people can't control, is not guns, it's "one man, one vote". As long as we still have that, there's a chance we can purge these corporate whores from government and get our representation back.

BTW, rich people don't break the law, they just change the law to make legal whatever they happen to be doing.

I was thinking about this earlier today, have you noticed that all the people that actually want to get rid of all guns are rich?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That is not my contention at all, my contention is that guns neutralize force so that reason has a better chance to win the argument. The best example of this is the cold war doctrine of mutually assured destruction. I thought it was ridiculous at the time, and actually expected it to fail at any moment. Instead, because two bitter enemies both knew that they could not win a fight, they talked, and they eventually figured out a way to come together and work toward a common goal for no other reason that force was removed from the equation.

Ghandi didn't use a gun to take over a country.

MLK didn't use a gun to fight oppression and give us civil rights.

Jesus didn't use a gun, yet the ruling authority at the time considered him a threat.

Ghandi did not take over a country.

 

[Billo_Really]

Ghandi did not take over a country.

Well, they didn't vote our British rule during an election season. He did play a significant role in acheiving their independence. And his ole lady became their President.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

By the way, King owned guns, had a concealed carry permit, and had armed guards protecting his home and family.

He might have been a pacifist, but he wasn't a fool.

 

[Billo_Really]

I was thinking about this earlier today, have you noticed that all the people that actually want to get rid of all guns are rich?

I haven't given it that much thought. I'm not a gun guy.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Ghandi did not take over a country.

Well, they didn't vote our British rule during an election season. He did play a significant role in acheiving their independence. And his ole lady became their President.

He also spoke up against Britain's refusal to allow Indians to join the military and carry weapons. A bit of a contradiction for a man that is supposed to be enlightened and totally against violence.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I was thinking about this earlier today, have you noticed that all the people that actually want to get rid of all guns are rich?

I haven't given it that much thought. I'm not a gun guy.

I am also willing to bet you don't live in a poor neighborhood where gangs are a fact of life.

 

[Billo_Really]

By the way, King owned guns, had a concealed carry permit, and had armed guards protecting his home and family.

He might have been a pacifist, but he wasn't a fool.

That's true. But the point was, he didn't use them to achieve his goals and change this country.

 

[Billo_Really]

I am also willing to bet you don't live in a poor neighborhood where gangs are a fact of life.

Actually, I did grow up in a bad area. However, we were the meanest house on the block. Cops were always showing up, either to arrest my uncles, or date my aunts. In fact, we were the only house on the block that didn't have a fence. My father, uncles and jail buddy's were all into guns. For me, it just wasn't my dance.

BTW, guns won't save you from gangs, if you give them reason to pop a cap in your ass. I found if I didn't get into their business, they didn't get into mine.

 

[Avatar4321]

I humbly disagree. While I don't disagree that guns have provided people with an easier way to defend themselves, it's not the gun itself that creates civilization. It's virtue. Without virtue, even people with guns are just violent individuals who couldn't care less about other people.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

By the way, King owned guns, had a concealed carry permit, and had armed guards protecting his home and family.

He might have been a pacifist, but he wasn't a fool.

That's true. But the point was, he didn't use them to achieve his goals and change this country.

They prevented people from invading his house and lynching him, which allowed him to use reason to sway the debate. Seems like evidence to support my premise, not disprove it.

Then again, you think my premise is about the guns, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to show how many people did not use them.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I am also willing to bet you don't live in a poor neighborhood where gangs are a fact of life.

Actually, I did grow up in a bad area. However, we were the meanest house on the block. Cops were always showing up, either to arrest my uncles, or date my aunts. In fact, we were the only house on the block that didn't have a fence. My father, uncles and jail buddy's were all into guns. For me, it just wasn't my dance.

BTW, guns won't save you from gangs, if you give them reason to pop a cap in your ass. I found if I didn't get into their business, they didn't get into mine.

No wonder you don't like guns, you don't want the people you go up against to stand up to you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I humbly disagree. While I don't disagree that guns have provided people with an easier way to defend themselves, it's not the gun itself that creates civilization. It's virtue. Without virtue, even people with guns are just violent individuals who couldn't care less about other people.

Tell that to the Mormon pioneers who had to fight off the people that wanted them to conform, they didn't earn a reputation for violence by resorting to virtue.

 

[Avatar4321]

I humbly disagree. While I don't disagree that guns have provided people with an easier way to defend themselves, it's not the gun itself that creates civilization. It's virtue. Without virtue, even people with guns are just violent individuals who couldn't care less about other people.

Tell that to the Mormon pioneers who had to fight off the people that wanted them to conform, they didn't earn a reputation for violence by resorting to virtue.

They didn't have a reputation for violence.

 

[PaulS1950]

Have you any idea how many people died while peacefully protesting, with Ghandi, against English rule of India? The Brittish killed so many un-armed protesters that it made them sick of the killing.

Now, how many people would criminals kill before they tired of it?

There are many uses for guns including but not limited to:
1. defending one's-self and one's state, country etc.
2. legal competition target shooting (uses military style "assault" rifles)
3. receational target shooting
4. hunting / harvesting wild game for food
5. getting rid of varmints and vermin that destroy crops

What guns are used in these activities? ALL kinds of guns from .17 cal single shot pistols to .50 caliber (and larger) fully automatic machine guns. All owned and fired legally. The second amendment doesn't limit the use of a gun or the size. The federal government regultes who can legally own a fully automatic weapon. Some states do not allow full auto guns within their borders (violating the constitutional equal protection statutes).

 

[Billo_Really]

No wonder you don't like guns, you don't want the people you go up against to stand up to you.

I don't care if someone has a gun or not.

I prefer not to put myself in situations where people want to shoot me.

 

[Billo_Really]

They prevented people from invading his house and lynching him, which allowed him to use reason to sway the debate. Seems like evidence to support my premise, not disprove it.

Then again, you think my premise is about the guns, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to show how many people did not use them.

Well, it might just be me, but isn't this the "gun" thread?

And isn't the OP trying to say that something made for destruction of humans, is civilized?

 

[Billo_Really]

I humbly disagree. While I don't disagree that guns have provided people with an easier way to defend themselves, it's not the gun itself that creates civilization. It's virtue. Without virtue, even people with guns are just violent individuals who couldn't care less about other people.

Virtue is about morality, which is a good thing in a civilized society.

Civilized people make a civilized society. They can be armed, or un-armed, but it's not the main reason a civilization exists. Being civil, just might be the antithesis to guns and violence.