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Guns and Afghanistan...what should have been done over the last 20 years.....

Flash

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The absence of a nation building operation in 1989 is the reason we ended up back in Afghanistan in 2001. We be back there in 10-20 years.


I respectfully disagree. We can't rebuild every nation on earth that is a threat to us or may harbor threats to us. That is a recipe for disaster as we are finding out.
 

Pete7469

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The chapter of US involvement may be coming to a close, but I'm confident that the next chapter will involve a guerilla war against the talibs. That country is flush with guns.

Lets also not be under the idea that the talibs "swept back in" or followed the US in as we left. They had been in control pretty much all along. They merely tolerated our patrols for the most part and remained hidden like roaches. Eventually the tribal wars will resume, a new alliance of warlords will begin to attack talib bases and people once "loyal" to talibs will switch sides and fight them. These people do not want to live in peace.


.
 

Wild Bill Kelsoe

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I respectfully disagree. We can't rebuild every nation on earth that is a threat to us or may harbor threats to us. That is a recipe for disaster as we are finding out.
With all due respect, I believe you're reading too much into "nation building". The objective isn't to create a country that's a carbon copy of The United States, but rather to kill off enough of the bad guys and build enough infrastructure so that it isn't a shithole controlled by ruthless warlords. Getting a country to that point can allow it to progress, not regress.
 

Flash

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With all due respect, I believe you're reading too much into "nation building". The objective isn't to create a country that's a carbon copy of The United States, but rather to kill off enough of the bad guys and build enough infrastructure so that it isn't a shithole controlled by ruthless warlords. Getting a country to that point can allow it to progress, not regress.


We could always kill a bunch of bad guys but the "building an infrastructure" was never going to work in a tribal society. We were not going to replace the tribal structure with a national government.

Bin Laden was our enemy. We wasted his sorry ass. After that we had no reason to be over there.

I just wish we would have committed enough troops to get him at Tora Bora and the whole damn thing would have been over quickly.
 

whitehall

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Nobody seemed alarmed when Obama's ATF shipped over 3,000 illegal weapons to Mexican drug cartels under "Op Fast/Furious". Maybe the Military keeps better records.
 

Rigby5

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We can see what has happened in Afghanistan.....the military collapsed and now civilians are at the mercy of barbarians.....women who grew up in the last 20 years knowing relative freedom....for Afghanistan.....are now about to experience the middle ages......

What should have been done?

If we wanted to help these people, we should have trained citizen militias, armed them with rifles and pistols....for the eventual day when we left and the Afghan military collapsed.

From the numbers I heard, there are about 75,000 taliban monsters.....arming the entire population in the cities as well as the country side would have given the people there who wanted to resist the ability to shoot taliban monsters in guerilla warfare.

Stockpiles of arms and ammo....training, especially of Afghan women in the cities...would have made sense...

And for the anti-gun extremists who prefer that women are beaten, raped, tortured, sold into slavery and murdered....the taliban doesn't have tanks, F-15s and nuclear weapons.....so rifles and pistols in the hands of 14.2 million Afghan women? Would have made a difference...

Sure....culture may have interferred over there, but the young women of Afghanistan, who wanted to set up resistance cells would have had a chance.....

We should have trained and armed them for this eventuality...

No, the Taliban may be way too strict for our values, but they are the local standard.
Kabul was corrupted by the Russians, and does not reflect Afghanistan in general.
The Taliban do.
And they are the most honest.
You can't bribe them.
Trying to train urban Kabul residents in firearm would only have gotten tens of thousands killed.
The Taliban are the best soldiers in the whole world.
Nobody can ever defeat them.
We just made them withdraw for a little while.

And you are listening to propaganda.
The Taliban have NEVER raped, tortured, or sold women into slavery.
That is just bunk.
 

Rigby5

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The war in Afghanistan was always to get Bin Laden. We let him get away at Tora Bora.

There should never have been a mission to nation build.

When Bin Laden was finally killed we should have declared victory, packed up and then left.

Since bin Laden was in Pakistan, we NEVER should have gone into Afghanistan at all, ever.
 

Rigby5

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The absence of a nation building operation in 1989 is the reason we ended up back in Afghanistan in 2001. We be back there in 10-20 years.

We did build a nation in 1989, and it was the Taliban.
The Taliban were the most popular and least corrupt of the Mujahedeen, after the Soviet withdrew.
 

Rigby5

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Flash

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Since bin Laden was in Pakistan, we NEVER should have gone into Afghanistan at all, ever.


First of all they didn't know he was in Pakistan until shortly before he was killed but that is beside the point.

If you mean what you say then you will join me in condemning the Obama/Biden administration for escalating the war and praise Trump for making the decision to withdraw.

How about it Sport?
 

Rigby5

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Wow.....that's all you have............could be biden is smarter than you....

Well Augustine has a point.
The Taliban are the cream of the Mujahedeen, the single best soldiers on the planet.
The idea a bunch of urban people who never held a gun, could possibly resist the Taliban, is just silly.
It would just result on a needless slaughter.

Obviously the only possible solution is to negotiate with the Taliban.
They clearly are the legitimate government of Afghanistan, and always have been.
 

Rigby5

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First of all they didn't know he was in Pakistan until shortly before he was killed but that is beside the point.

If you mean what you say then you will join me in condemning the Obama/Biden administration for escalating the war and praise Trump for making the decision to withdraw.

How about it Sport?

Yes, I am extreme leftist, but Obama totally goofed, both in failing to immediately get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, but also screwing up Libya, Egypt, and Syria was well.

And yes, Trump did nothing for me to complain about in foreign policies.
The worst I can complain about was Kavanaugh, but so far not much there either.
 

Wild Bill Kelsoe

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That is bogus.
The Taliban are and always have been the cream of the Mujahedeen.
They are the least corrupt, most idealistic, most popular, and most religious.
That is incorrect. The Northern Alliance were the elite of the Mijahadeen during the Soviet-Afghan War.
 

Wild Bill Kelsoe

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We did build a nation in 1989, and it was the Taliban.
The Taliban were the most popular and least corrupt of the Mujahedeen, after the Soviet withdrew.
We never funded the Taliban. You should read Charlie Wilson's War. It explains everything. We funded the forces under Shah Mamoud, not the Taliban.
 

Colin norris

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We can see what has happened in Afghanistan.....the military collapsed and now civilians are at the mercy of barbarians.....women who grew up in the last 20 years knowing relative freedom....for Afghanistan.....are now about to experience the middle ages......

What should have been done?

If we wanted to help these people, we should have trained citizen militias, armed them with rifles and pistols....for the eventual day when we left and the Afghan military collapsed.

From the numbers I heard, there are about 75,000 taliban monsters.....arming the entire population in the cities as well as the country side would have given the people there who wanted to resist the ability to shoot taliban monsters in guerilla warfare.

Stockpiles of arms and ammo....training, especially of Afghan women in the cities...would have made sense...

And for the anti-gun extremists who prefer that women are beaten, raped, tortured, sold into slavery and murdered....the taliban doesn't have tanks, F-15s and nuclear weapons.....so rifles and pistols in the hands of 14.2 million Afghan women? Would have made a difference...

Sure....culture may have interferred over there, but the young women of Afghanistan, who wanted to set up resistance cells would have had a chance.....

We should have trained and armed them for this eventuality...

Not putting too finer point on this but have you recently researched what America did for those idiots?
300 million to train them, gave them weapons etc of all descriptions and when the enemy came they flew like a mob of chickens.
What should be done?
Leave the bastards there and let them suffer a bit more. They might appreciate it next time.
 

Wild Bill Kelsoe

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Not putting too finer point on this but have you recently researched what America did for those idiots?
300 million to train them, gave them weapons etc of all descriptions and when the enemy came they flew like a mob of chickens.
What should be done?
Leave the bastards there and let them suffer a bit more. They might appreciate it next time.
And then, literally over night, Biden cuts off the air support we promised.
 

Colin norris

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You're fine with Biden's fuck up? Figures.

It's not a fuck up. Why didn't trump leave there? Now some ones got the guts to do it, it's suddenly a fuck up.
Fuck off.
How come you are all suddenly swollen with empathy and sadness about people who 12 months ago were your sworn enemy?
You hypocrite.
 

Rigby5

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That is incorrect. The Northern Alliance were the elite of the Mijahadeen during the Soviet-Afghan War.
The Northern Alliance were always more western, being closer to Russia, but were always a small minority.
They are not Pashtun like the Taliban and the majority of Afghans, but Tajik.
So while we may have liked the Northern Alliance more, they were never significant to the Mujahedeen.
 

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