Grammar

[Unkotare]

10-15 years ago or so there was a (somewhat) big push in academia to recognize the value of all of the language skills that students have, even if they are not prescriptively 'correct' (This was around the time there was a pointless little tempest about recognizing Ebonics as a distinct language). Used correctly there is a lot of value in this, and it is certainly true that kids who do not speak perfect English are not therefore 'stupid' or ill-mannered. However, as with most things, the PC nonsense just takes everything further and further into irrationality, until now some teachers are too meek to even address grammar or to correct examples of ungrammaticality in their students. The result is that I now encounter students at the high school level who are not even aware that (for example) the use of a double negative is incorrect. Some (usually young) people will use a certain cultural patois among their friends or in some social settings, but I run into more than a few students who have never heard it mentioned that the use of a double negative is improper. The quality of communication in many aspects of society has certainly degraded over the decades, to the point that proper English is sometimes perceived as pretentious or arrogant, but the notion that a student may progress in his or her education all the way to the high school level and have no concept of basic structures and uses of English is appalling to me.

 

[Moonglow]

Why teach proper English when the business world doesn't use proper English in grammar or in spelling?

 

[White 6]

10-15 years ago or so there was a (somewhat) big push in academia to recognize the value of all of the language skills that students have, even if they are not prescriptively 'correct' (This was around the time there was a pointless little tempest about recognizing Ebonics as a distinct language). Used correctly there is a lot of value in this, and it is certainly true that kids who do not speak perfect English are not therefore 'stupid' or ill-mannered. However, as with most things, the PC nonsense just takes everything further and further into irrationality, until now some teachers are too meek to even address grammar or to correct examples of ungrammaticality in their students. The result is that I now encounter students at the high school level who are not even aware that (for example) the use of a double negative is incorrect. Some (usually young) people will use a certain cultural patois among their friends or in some social settings, but I run into more than a few students who have never heard it mentioned that the use of a double negative is improper. The quality of communication in many aspects of society has certainly degraded over the decades, to the point that proper English is sometimes perceived as pretentious or arrogant, but the notion that a student may progress in his or her education all the way to the high school level and have no concept of basic structures and uses of English is appalling to me.

The word "irregardless" has always bugged me.

 

[ClaireH]

10-15 years ago or so there was a (somewhat) big push in academia to recognize the value of all of the language skills that students have, even if they are not prescriptively 'correct' (This was around the time there was a pointless little tempest about recognizing Ebonics as a distinct language). Used correctly there is a lot of value in this, and it is certainly true that kids who do not speak perfect English are not therefore 'stupid' or ill-mannered. However, as with most things, the PC nonsense just takes everything further and further into irrationality, until now some teachers are too meek to even address grammar or to correct examples of ungrammaticality in their students. The result is that I now encounter students at the high school level who are not even aware that (for example) the use of a double negative is incorrect. Some (usually young) people will use a certain cultural patois among their friends or in some social settings, but I run into more than a few students who have never heard it mentioned that the use of a double negative is improper. The quality of communication in many aspects of society has certainly degraded over the decades, to the point that proper English is sometimes perceived as pretentious or arrogant, but the notion that a student may progress in his or her education all the way to the high school level and have no concept of basic structures and uses of English is appalling to me.

Just wait until “ him and me” is standard English… it’s coming. Likewise, commercials now have the actors say, “bring this to your dad” when ‘take’ should be used since he’s in the next room. Similarly, Webster’s recent addition of messenger RNA to the vaccine definition.

 

[ClaireH]

Why teach proper English when the business world doesn't use proper English in grammar or in spelling?

You have a valid point MG. Webster’s dictionary and others will soon update all definitions and grammar rules to fit the times.

Since the main purpose of language is to communicate with each other, as long as we can understand what a word means OK let’s update. Lying should be avoided though, as in the claim that messenger DNA is a vaccine. The more important aspect is that this will continue in all areas- redefining and updating. What I can’t get over is the lying aspect to justify after the fact.

 

[Anomalism]

I think it's fine as long as somebody has enough structure to convey meaning efficiently. Those small things may bother you, but I don't think you're actually struggling to understand that person.

 

[Moonglow]

You have a valid point MG. Webster’s dictionary and others will soon update all definitions and grammar rules to fit the times.

Since the main purpose of language is to communicate with each other, as long as we can understand what a word means OK let’s update. Lying should be avoided though, as in the claim that messenger DNA is a vaccine. The more important aspect is that this will continue in all areas- redefining and updating. I can’t get over the lying aspect to justify after the fact.

The vaccine used has to be coded to know what to do.

 

[ClaireH]

The vaccine used has to be coded to know what to do.

Maybe for Alpha yes. The idiot media types continuing to say Everyone should rush out now to get this outdated product should have 18 inch noses by now. Too bad that life wasn’t created that way… can you imagine all liars would be quickly identified, well along with many more people going into plastic surgery ha. Too bad we’re left with our own faulty perceptions to try to figure it out. Best case scenario is reading more truths than you do lies.

 

[Moonglow]

Maybe for Alpha yes. The idiot media types continuing to say Everyone should rush out now to get this outdated product should have 18 inch noses by now. Too bad that life wasn’t created that way… can you imagine all liars would be quickly identified, well along with many more people going into plastic surgery ha. Too bad we’re left with our own faulty perceptions to try to figure it out. Best case scenario is reading more truths than you do lies.

media doesn't make it's living from being sane or orderly it makes a living off of chaos.

 

[Unkotare]

I think it's fine as long as somebody has enough structure to convey meaning efficiently. Those small things may bother you, but I don't think you're actually struggling to understand that person.

That kind of surrendering to low expectations is one reason why our language and culture have been degrading for a long time now.

 

[Anomalism]

language and culture have been degrading for a long time now.

People have been saying that forever. We're still here, and better than ever.

 

[Unkotare]

People have been saying that forever. ....

And other people have been working hard to uphold at least some standards. That's why we're not just grunting and pointing at each other by now.

 

[Anomalism]

And other people have been working hard to uphold at least some standards. That's why we're not just grunting and pointing at each other by now.

Structure is definitely important, more or less so depending on context. At the end of the day though the entire purpose of writing and speech is for me to be able to get you to understand the thoughts in my head, and vise versa, so as long as our ability to achieve that does not diminish it's fine. Things change. We're becoming more advanced and complex as time goes on, not less.

 

[Unkotare]

Structure is definitely important, more or less so depending on context. At the end of the day though the entire purpose of writing and speech is for me to be able to get you to understand the thoughts in my head, and vise versa, so as long as our ability to achieve that does not diminish it's fine. ....

The abandonment of grammaticality does in fact diminish the ability to understand each other with a high degree of precision. Grammar wasn't developed in any language just for fun, or to bother young people. Every aspect of grammar is there because it was necessary to understand some idea, situation, or message in a very specific way. Some grammatical forms are used less frequently than others because the specific idea they convey comes up less often, but they are there for exactly those times that it does come up. If "I can kind of figure out what you mean" were the only standard, we could all stop developing language skills around the age of 3. What effect do you think that would have had on the development of civilization as we know it today?

 

[Unkotare]

We're becoming more advanced and complex as time goes on, not less.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Anomalism]

The abandonment of grammaticality does in fact diminish the ability to understand each other with a high degree of precision. Grammar wasn't developed in any language just for fun, or to bother young people. Every aspect of grammar is there because it was necessary to understand some idea, situation, or message in a very specific way. Some grammatical forms are used less frequently than others because the specific idea they convey comes up less often, but they are there for exactly those times that it does come up. If "I can kind of figure out what you mean" were the only standard, we could all stop developing language skills around the age of 3. What effect do you think that would have had on the development of civilization as we know it today?

I don't think educated people will hinder communication by abandoning important aspects of grammar. On the other hand I'm not sure how important it is for a high school graduate or even a college student to understand the proper time to use a semicolon or some other obscure element of grammar. Almost nobody on this forum has perfect grammar, and that includes some very intelligent and clearly educated people. I think that's fine.

Are you sure about that?

I'm pretty sure.

 

[ClaireH]

People have been saying that forever. We're still here, and better than ever.

True that has been said generation (25 years) after generation. “Better than ever”with respect to grammar usage is subjective depending on circumstances. If a person wants to be hired for most any type of position, it’s still better to go with “Thank you for your consideration, if hired I’ll make sure I am the best fit for the job” instead of “Dude! I preesh your maybe gonna hire me…I’m damn good in all things” lol

 

[Unkotare]

I don't think educated people will hinder communication by abandoning important aspects of grammar.

....

I don't think that taking just one stone away from a dam will flood the town, but...

 

[TheParser]

Some kind-hearted people even say that maybe we should get rid of the "s" ending in the present tense.

Instead of "Tom speaks English," some Americans say "Tom speak English."

Those kind-hearted people explain that in fact in a few parts of England many years ago, some English speakers did NOT use the "s" ending. So when they emigrated to the colonies here, they brought with them that habit, which they then passed on to their slaves in the South.

By the way, I do not wish to be unkind, but I think that it would be nice if writers could differentiate between it's ("It's Friday") and its ("Its new name is now 'Meta' ").

 

[rupol2000]

What you call grammar is actually not grammar. Schoolchildren are not taught grammar at all. Grammar is the science of the rules for constructing languages.

As for this folk "grammars" with the clutter of modern languages such requirements will play into the hands of people with an autistic mindset, with low intelligence, who are good at memorization.