General Patton Called It

[regent]

MacArthur was THE most overrated General in our history. Worse than McClellen

Nimitz won the war in the Pacific....MacArthur took credit

It was the greatest mistake FDR ever did was not getting rid of MacArthur. Of the two routes to Japan, the Central Pacific was most promising, but MacArthur wanted to carry out his "I shall return" promise so FDR allowed MacArthur to use one or two army's so MacArthur could keep his promise to return to the Philippines.
All those Americans lost retaking the Philippines so MacArthur could keep a promise, and he never once said "We have returned" only "I have returned".

 

[Vandalshandle]

Truman's entire cabinet agreed with Truman that McArthur had to go. He was a loose cannon, who simply did not appreciate or take seriously the concept of civilian rule over the military.

 

[Vandalshandle]

As for Patton, Ike kept him on a short leash, for good reason. His egomania and military adventurism so strong that he could have easily destroyed the alliance that Ike had forged to win WW2 in Europe. By the end of the war, he was more hostile to Montgomery and the Soviets than he was to the Nazi's.

 

[Flanders]

MacArthur was THE most overrated General in our history. Worse than McClellen

Nimitz won the war in the Pacific....MacArthur took credit

To rightwinger: I am not surprised that a Lefty points out (falsely) that General MacArthur took credit for somebody else’s victory. It must be in your genes. Socialists confiscate wealth then claim they created it; so it is only natural that you judge others by your own standards.

It was the greatest mistake FDR ever did was not getting rid of MacArthur. Of the two routes to Japan, the Central Pacific was most promising, but MacArthur wanted to carry out his "I shall return" promise so FDR allowed MacArthur to use one or two army's so MacArthur could keep his promise to return to the Philippines.

General Marshall approved MacArthur’s island-hopping strategy. Every military man believed that establishing airfields in the Philippines was essential for bombing Japan —— that was before anybody knew that two Atomic Bombs would end the war.

All those Americans lost retaking the Philippines so MacArthur could keep a promise, and he never once said "We have returned" only "I have returned".

To regent: General MacArthur’s saying “I have returned.” was quite correct. He made a personal promise to the people of the Philippines. Had he said “We have returned.” you would accuse him of arrogance for saying something only President Roosevelt was entitled to say.

Incidentally, the American public, and Admiral King, wanted a Japan First war policy, while FDR and the British implemented Germany First.

Truman's entire cabinet agreed with Truman that McArthur had to go. He was a loose cannon, who simply did not appreciate or take seriously the concept of civilian rule over the military.

To Vandalshandle: No kidding! Democrats wanted to tarnish an American hero who made it clear throughout his life that he had no use for Communism or Communists. Thanks for pointing that out.

As for Patton, Ike kept him on a short leash, for good reason. His egomania and military adventurism so strong that he could have easily destroyed the alliance that Ike had forged to win WW2 in Europe.

To Vandalshandle: You cannot be serious. One general was going make our allies forget about defeating Germany!

Incidentally, early in the planning stages of the war Churchill wanted to attack Germany through the Balkans in addition to going through France. The meant invading the Island of Rhodes. General Marshall told him: "Not one American soldier is going to die on that goddamn beach." My point: No matter what Patton did the allies had to go along lest America shift to a Japan First strategy.

By the end of the war, he was more hostile to Montgomery and the Soviets than he was to the Nazi's.

To Vandalshandle: The Montgomery thing was nothing more than a personality beef.

And Patton was rightly more hostile to the Soviets. The Nazis were defeated, the Soviet Union was the enemy in front of him.

Also, had the “civilians” listened to Patton the best remnants of Germany’s war machine would have made superb allies when they were fighting for Germany rather than fighting for Nazism.

And PLEASE, PLEASE. Spare me the moral indignation I feel is coming my way since both the US and the Soviets had no qualms about employing Hitler’s scientists.

 

[regent]

MacArthur was THE most overrated General in our history. Worse than McClellen

Nimitz won the war in the Pacific....MacArthur took credit

To rightwinger: I am not surprised that a Lefty points out (falsely) that General MacArthur took credit for somebody else’s victory. It must be in your genes. Socialists confiscate wealth then claim they created it; so it is only natural that you judge others by your own standards.

It was the greatest mistake FDR ever did was not getting rid of MacArthur. Of the two routes to Japan, the Central Pacific was most promising, but MacArthur wanted to carry out his "I shall return" promise so FDR allowed MacArthur to use one or two army's so MacArthur could keep his promise to return to the Philippines.

General Marshall approved MacArthur’s island-hopping strategy. Every military man believed that establishing airfields in the Philippines was essential for bombing Japan —— that was before anybody knew that two Atomic Bombs would end the war.



To regent: General MacArthur’s saying “I have returned.” was quite correct. He made a personal promise to the people of the Philippines. Had he said “We have returned.” you would accuse him of arrogance for saying something only President Roosevelt was entitled to say.

Incidentally, the American public, and Admiral King, wanted a Japan First war policy, while FDR and the British implemented Germany First.



To Vandalshandle: No kidding! Democrats wanted to tarnish an American hero who made it clear throughout his life that he had no use for Communism or Communists. Thanks for pointing that out.

As for Patton, Ike kept him on a short leash, for good reason. His egomania and military adventurism so strong that he could have easily destroyed the alliance that Ike had forged to win WW2 in Europe.

To Vandalshandle: You cannot be serious. One general was going make our allies forget about defeating Germany!

Incidentally, early in the planning stages of the war Churchill wanted to attack Germany through the Balkans in addition to going through France. The meant invading the Island of Rhodes. General Marshall told him: "Not one American soldier is going to die on that goddamn beach." My point: No matter what Patton did the allies had to go along lest America shift to a Japan First strategy.

By the end of the war, he was more hostile to Montgomery and the Soviets than he was to the Nazi's.

To Vandalshandle: The Montgomery thing was nothing more than a personality beef.

And Patton was rightly more hostile to the Soviets. The Nazis were defeated, the Soviet Union was the enemy in front of him.

Also, had the “civilians” listened to Patton the best remnants of Germany’s war machine would have made superb allies when they were fighting for Germany rather than fighting for Nazism.

And PLEASE, PLEASE. Spare me the moral indignation I feel is coming my way since both the US and the Soviets had no qualms about employing Hitler’s scientists.

The best MacArthur quote: "For the framers of the Constitution were the most liberal thinkers of all the ages and the charter they produced out of the liberal revolution of their time has never and is not now surpassed in liberal thought."

 

[Vandalshandle]

MacArthur's best quote ever:

"...And like the old soldier of that ballad, I now close my military career and just fade away..."

 

[Vandalshandle]

About Patton's relationship with Bradley and Ike:

"...Patton did not survive to write retrospectively, but despite their friendship, he raged in his diary that “Ike is more British than the British and is putty in their hands.”... Patton was no kinder to Bradley behind his back. In a letter to his wife, Beatrice, he called Bradley “the tent maker” — a snide reference to his first name. Given such sentiments, it may seem surprising that we managed to win the war at all.

 

[Camp]

To Friends: America’s monopoly on the Atomic Bomb would have made an invasion unnecessary if President Truman would have told the Soviets to retreat behind the borders of the original Russia or else.
]

Common mistake made when promoting the idea that Patton's idea to continue the war after the German surrender in the beginning of April of 1945. The United States did not have a so called monopoly on the Atomic bomb. There was no Atomic bomb. It was still in developed and even the scientist who had been developing it could not guarantee the results. The first test didn't occur until July 16, three months after the German surrender. The two deliverable bombs that were produced were not ready until a month later.
Two other significant dates and events also have to be considered that are almost always left out of the Patton idea. Iwo Jima in the closing days of the war in Europe and Okinawa which began the same week as VE-Day. As the war in Europe ended, America got a horrible look at what was in store for the future war in the Pacific. Almost 7,000 KIA's and 20,000 taking one small Island called Iwo Jima. And as the ink was drying on the German surrender agreement, another 12,000 men were dying on Okinawa along, with 50,000 being wounded.

 

[whitehall]

MacArthur made wild threats to nuke China after the ego-trip that forced US Troops into the biggest ambush in history in Korea failed. I doubt if he really meant it and I doubt if he was in his right mind during the time he was commander of US Troops in Korea.

To whitehall: Thank God I have a sense of humor.

Anyone who contributes a lot to his country is allowed a large ego; however, your hangup on MacArthur’s ego clouded your interpretation of events. I am not going to go over the conflict between General MacArthur and President Truman. Anybody who is interested can do a little research to get an accurate picture of the Korean War and General MacArthur’s military capabilities. One need not look far to find his motives:

But once war is forced upon us, there is no other alternative than to apply every available means to bring it to a swift end. War's very object is victory, not prolonged indecision.

In war there is no substitute for victory.

There are some who for varying reasons would appease Red China. They are blind to history's clear lesson, for history teaches with unmistakable emphasis that appeasement but begets new and bloodier war. It points to no single instance where this end has justified that means, where appeasement had led to more than a sham peace.

Like blackmail, it lays the basis for new and successively greater demands until, as in blackmail, violence becomes the only alternative. Why, my soldiers asked of me, surrender military advantages to an enemy in the field? I could not answer.

XXXXX​

The world has turned over many times since I took the oath on the plain at West Point, and the hopes and dreams have long since vanished, but I still remember the refrain of one of the most popular barracks ballads of that day which proclaimed most proudly that old soldiers never die; they just fade away.

And like the old soldier of that ballad, I now close my military career and just fade away, an old soldier who tried to do his duty as God gave him the light to see that duty. Good-by.

I don't mean to hijack the post but I want to make a point. MacArthur was an old WW1 Veteran. He never even spent a night in Korea while he was commander and he preferred to run the ground war from his plush digs as de-facto king of Japan. He relied on the "intelligence" furnished by his fawning staff including general Almond who only sent him information that tended to boost his ego. It's MacArthur's fault (and timid Truman) that the Chinese entered the Korean conflict and the war lasted three yeas while the mission was completed in less than one. The only information available to Americans at the time was guaranteed to be supportive of MacArthur even when he was finally relieved of duty. Korean Vets knew the score though and a groundswell of resentment for MacArthur caused him to be rejected as a republican candidate for president. Instead he ran under a 3rd party apparently deliberately syphoning votes from fellow general Eisenhower.

 

[regent]

One problem with generals is their entire career is supposedly for one goal, a war. When a war on occasion does occur they have to make the most of it. Promotions are in order, sudden fame can await, and perhaps the biggie, the presidency. Not all generals see war in that manner but probably enough, and how they handle that opportunity is a biggie.

 

[Flanders]

the liberal revolution of their time

To regent: Exactly. America’s Founders created limited government and individual liberties in their time —— the very things today’s liberals are out to destroy.

General MacArthur also said “. . . human liberty in the purest form yet devised.” Clearly, he was crediting the Framers for devising a government that made this country the greatest ever.

I stand on this rostrum with a sense of deep humility and great pride - humility in the wake of those great architects of our history who have stood here before me, pride in the reflection that this home of legislative debate represents human liberty in the purest form yet devised.

About Patton's relationship with Bradley and Ike:

"...Patton did not survive to write retrospectively, but despite their friendship, he raged in his diary that “Ike is more British than the British and is putty in their hands.”... Patton was no kinder to Bradley behind his back. In a letter to his wife, Beatrice, he called Bradley “the tent maker” — a snide reference to his first name.

To Vandalshandle: Criticism of his fellow generals means nothing. What do you think they said about him?

Given such sentiments, it may seem surprising that we managed to win the war at all.

To Vandalshandle: Come on. Lighten up on Ol’ Blood & Guts. Generals throughout history won battles because of their knowledge of military tactics and their leadership qualities regardless of how they behaved.

Common mistake made when promoting the idea that Patton's idea to continue the war after the German surrender in the beginning of April of 1945. The United States did not have a so called monopoly on the Atomic bomb. There was no Atomic bomb. It was still in developed and even the scientist who had been developing it could not guarantee the results. The first test didn't occur until July 16, three months after the German surrender. The two deliverable bombs that were produced were not ready until a month later.

To Camp: I did not say that the A-Bomb was part of Patton’s thinking. My references to the A-Bomb were framed after the world knew.

NOTE: When Truman told Stalin to get out of Afghanistan he could have told Uncle Joe anything at a future date because Stalin did not know how many good-to-go Bombs America had.

Two other significant dates and events also have to be considered that are almost always left out of the Patton idea. Iwo Jima in the closing days of the war in Europe and Okinawa which began the same week as VE-Day. As the war in Europe ended, America got a horrible look at what was in store for the future war in the Pacific. Almost 7,000 KIA's and 20,000 taking one small Island called Iwo Jima. And as the ink was drying on the German surrender agreement, another 12,000 men were dying on Okinawa along, with 50,000 being wounded.

To Camp: Thanks. Iwo Jima and Okinawa provide unquestionable justification for dropping the Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I don't mean to hijack the post but I want to make a point.

To whitehall: Be my quest. I’m from the Bar None Ranch.

MacArthur was an old WW1 Veteran. He never even spent a night in Korea while he was commander and he preferred to run the ground war from his plush digs as de-facto king of Japan.

To whitehall: How many battles did Generals Eisenhower and Marshall take part in?

He relied on the "intelligence" furnished by his fawning staff including general Almond who only sent him information that tended to boost his ego.

To whitehall: That’s a new one to me. Do you have any creditable links to back it up?

It's MacArthur's fault (and timid Truman) that the Chinese entered the Korean conflict and the war lasted three yeas while the mission was completed in less than one.

To whitehall: Truman was far from timid. He was committed to a United Nation Police Action, while the Democrat party was, and still is, locked into Woodrow Wilson’s Peace Without Victory war policy.

NOTE: Truman deserves credit for going to Korea when the Soviet Union failed to show up for a Security Council meeting for the first and only time. Had the Soviets attended that meeting they would have vetoed the police action. Unfortunately, Truman would not allow General MacArthur to bomb China into withdrawing.

The only information available to Americans at the time was guaranteed to be supportive of MacArthur even when he was finally relieved of duty. Korean Vets knew the score though and a groundswell of resentment for MacArthur caused him to be rejected as a republican candidate for president.

To whitehall: He was rejected as the Republican nominee when party bosses —— not the public—— deemed he could not win the general election because of the controversy surrounding his dismissal.

Instead he ran under a 3rd party apparently deliberately syphoning votes from fellow general Eisenhower.

To whitehall: Oh yeah! Eisenhower was really sweating that one:

1952
Adlai Stevenson Dem 969,228
Dwight Eisenhower Rep 1,102,878
Vincent Hallinan Prog 294
Stuart Hamblen Prohi 1,983
Douglas MacArthur Constitution Party 1,563

Presidential Election Results

As you can see, General MacArthur was on the ballot but he never campaigned in any sense of the word that I can remember.

 

[whitehall]

The inconvenient truth is that positive media spin trumps strategic military skill. COS George Marshall had the decoded message in his hands and his failure cost the lives of about 3,000 Americans on a beautiful sunday morning in December 1941. Evidence indicates that MacArthur's failure to react to Pearl Harbor and impending Japanese attack caused his entire air force to be destroyed parked wing to wing on the ground. He abandoned his army (under orders) and was awarded the Medal of Honor. Judging by the month's casualties, Ike's Normandy adventure was anything but a victory but the media needed positive spin on an appalling situation so they made Ike a hero. The awful intelligence failure during the Ardennes Offensive aka the "Battle of the Bulge" while Ike was attending Christmas parties cost the lives of more than 50,000 Troops. Ike should have been relieved but the media put a positive spin on a disaster. Most low information lefties think V.C. general Giap was a military genius but he lost every battle. On the other hand few Americans ever heard of Marine General Vandigrift but his leadership saved the Guadalcanal campaign after the Navy abandoned the Marines without supplies or food. The Guadalcanal victory changed the course of the war in the Pacific.

 

[regent]

There are mistakes galore in a war, shooting down our own paratroopers, invading islands no longer needed, with casualties but to some extent those are somewhat honest mistakes of war. I just think to use American military lives to feed an exaggerated ego is not nice. We did not need the Philippines as a base for bombing Japan or as a staging area for Olympic, and MacArthur knew it--as did others.
Stick with Mac and never get back.

 

[Moonglow]

Hindsight is 20/20 to these warhawks...yet you see very few of them in uniform talking their shyt...

 

[Vandalshandle]

"To Vandalshandle: Criticism of his fellow generals means nothing. What do you think they said about him? "


I don't have to think. I know what Ike said about Patton. He put it in writing. He said that Patton hated "slugging it out" over rough terrain, and that he only shined when he was given a clear field field to run in, which is why Ike had Bradley lead the slugfest across France through the hedgerows. He specifically said that Bradly was a much better general than Patton when comparing all qualities against all qualities. He knew that Patton was primarily motivated by headlines. Ike did not trust Patton's judgment, and had him relieved because of his big mouth, and kept him on probation for months. I tend to find a soldier's superior officer's judgment of a solder's capabilities to be credible. There was a very sound reason why nobody in the high command wanted Patton to be assigned any important task after peace with Germany.

 

[Flanders]

There are mistakes galore in a war, shooting down our own paratroopers, invading islands no longer needed, with casualties but to some extent those are somewhat honest mistakes of war. I just think to use American military lives to feed an exaggerated ego is not nice. We did not need the Philippines as a base for bombing Japan or as a staging area for Olympic, and MacArthur knew it--as did others.
Stick with Mac and never get back.

I don't have to think. I know what Ike said about Patton. He put it in writing. He said that Patton hated "slugging it out" over rough terrain, and that he only shined when he was given a clear field field to run in, which is why Ike had Bradley lead the slugfest across France through the hedgerows. He specifically said that Bradly was a much better general than Patton when comparing all qualities against all qualities. He knew that Patton was primarily motivated by headlines. Ike did not trust Patton's judgment, and had him relieved because of his big mouth, and kept him on probation for months. I tend to find a soldier's superior officer's judgment of a solder's capabilities to be credible. There was a very sound reason why nobody in the high command wanted Patton to be assigned any important task after peace with Germany.

Considering their hatred of Communism —— Generals Patton and MacArthur wouldn’t stand a chance on the Internet today no matter what they did for the country:

Todd Akin looks at the political culture in Washington these days and can’t help but see the sinister playbook of radicals at work. He sees them baiting, spinning and destroying their remaining enemies on the road to transforming America into a socialist state devoid of personal freedom and responsibility.

Dems 'have mastered art of character assassination'
Former Rep. Akin says Republicans need to stop cowering
Published: 12 hours ago
LEO HOHMANN

Dems ?have mastered art of character assassination?​

 

[regent]

Maybe some of the better judges of command officer are the enlisted pukes that serve under them. For example, Grant was known as Butcher-Grant; Bradley, as the GI's general; Patton as old blood and guts, and one of the GI quips about MacArthur and his costly ego was, "Move over God it's me, Mac."

 

[Flanders]

Of all the WWII generals Eisenhower is the only one being honored with a major memorial. The problem is: The damn thing is a national disgrace:

July 25, 2014
Saving General Eisenhower
By Andrew E. Harrod

Articles: Saving General Eisenhower

See this thread for more details:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/congress/306233-memorials-hoodies-and-peckers.html