Roudy
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- Mar 16, 2012
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Gaza army
- Thread starter aris2chat
- Start date
Roudy
Diamond Member
- Mar 16, 2012
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- 20,201
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Does it matter what you think? No. Memri simply records and plays back the animals. Simple as that. Don't like it? Tough Shiite. Discredit all you want, it's the animals in their own words.
Roudy
Diamond Member
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About two million Arab Muslims are citizens of Israel with full rights.
That's about a third of Israelis.
Now **** off.
Last edited:
Roudy
Diamond Member
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You mean your Arab Muslim friends can't tell you if the translations are correct? You're just putting on this show because you know that Memri exposes your beloved PaliNazis.
Then why were they issued with BRITISH PALESTINIAN passports and BRITISH PALESTINIAN currency.
They were distinct from the BRITISH CITIZENS
They did not become BRITISH CITIZENS
Keep trying as the evidenced shows you to be barking mad.
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
Oh for heaven's sake. You understand this perfectly.
I suppose that technically, an argument can be made that both of these Resolution, adopted by the General Assemble are enforceable principles (quasi-Law) only to the extent that the UN Security Council has applied them. But of course, this is subject to adjudication by International Legal authorities. However, in most cases, in nearly every case, these two principles (article specific) have been applied internationally as if they were common or customary law; without challenge.
217 A (III). Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 15: A/RES/3/217 A
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
61/295. United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples
Article 33: A/RES/61/295
Affirming that indigenous peoples are equal to all other peoples, while recognizing the right of all peoples to be different, to consider themselves different, And to be respected as such, ...
(1) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine their own identity or membership in accordance with their customs and traditions. This does not impair the right of indigenous individuals to obtain citizenship of the States in which they live.
(2) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine the structures and to select the membership of their institutions in accordance with their own procedures.
(CONTEXT)
When one cites the term "Palestine" relative to the border issues, one must recognize the time reference frame to which the term is applied.
There is the "Palestine" of pre-Independence of Israel in which that designation applied to the territory to which the Mandate of Palestine was applicable (Part 1--- Para 1 --- Palestine Order in Council).
Then, there was the duration in which the 1949 Armistice Agreements were intact. A period in which the State of Israel co-existed with Sovereign Jordanian Territory called the West Bank, and the Egyptian Military Governorship of Gaza. This was a period in which, for all practical purposed, the legal entity formerly known as "Palestine" under the Order in Council, was no longer subject to the Order in Council; only existing in an historical context.
Then, there was the 1967 Outbreak of Hostilities, in which both the West Bank and Gaza Strip came under Israeli Military Control (Article 42 - Hague Convention 1907); territory occupied under the authority of the Israeli Defense Force (IDF); extending only where the IDF authority could be exercised. The West Bank was still sovereign Jordanian territory; however the Gaza Strip was Occupied formerly All Palestine Government (APG) Territory (an Egyptian Protectorate); the APG having been dissolved by the Egyptian Government in 1959.
Then, there was a period (beginning in late-1988) in which the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), having been appointed by the Arab League as the sole representative of the Palestinian People, declared Independence on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the General Assembly Resolutions 181(II) (1947) --- and demanded that Israel's withdrawal from all the Palestinian and Arab territories which it has occupied since 1967, including Arab Jerusalem. In acknowledgement, the UN then:
Aware of the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council in line with General Assembly resolution 181 (II) and in exercise of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people,
1. Acknowledges the proclamation of the State of Palestine
by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988;
2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;
3. Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;
(Sub-context and Palestinian Position) Source: PLO - Negotiation Affairs Department
2. Key Facts
Without regard to arguments that have been advanced that Article 32 of the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) granted some special association or meaning with "Palestine", the intent of the article was to ensure that the citizenship established by the various Mandates was addressed and that no "stateless persons" were created in the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.
ARTICLE I6.
Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.
ARTICLE 32.
Persons over eighteen years of age, habitually resident in territory detached from Turkey in accordance with the present Treaty, and differing in race from the majority of the population of such territory shall, within two years from the coming into force of the present Treaty, be entitled to opt for the nationality of one of the States in which the majority of the population is of the same race as the person exercising the right to opt, subject to the consent of that State.
The Treaty of Lausanne did not have an practical effect on the application of either Nationality or Citizenship over the implementation of the process or the scope in which the Mandatory applied it:
REPORT BY HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT TO THE COUNCIL OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS ON THE ADMINISTRATION OF PALESTINE AND TRANS-JORDAN FOR THE YEAR DECEMBER 1925 (NOTE: After the Treaty of Lausanne)
The regulations under the Immigration Ordinance, 1925, set up a statutory procedure for the introduction of Jewish immigrant labour into Palestine. The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council, 1925, facilitates the acquisition of Palestinian nationality by persons settling in the country, including those who opted for Palestinian citizenship under the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. There was a remarkable development of Jewish Co-operative Societies, constituted principally for building, agricultural and mutual credit purposes. Twenty-six Jewish companies were formed.
The position of the Mandatory was accepted without objection by the Order in Council.
The argument presented by the pro-Palestinian advocates that the Palestinians had some sovereign and pre-existing borders that were to prevent the legitimate establishment of Israel in 1948, pursuant to the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" adopted by the General Assembly under principle accepted under the Charter [Chapter I - Article 1(2) (equal rights and self-determination of peoples)] is simply a fallacy.
The habitual Inhabitance were given citizenship within the Mandate to which they were resident. This is a process that evolves depending on the sovereign authority or government holding or responsible for the territory. As you (anyone) can see, in the case of Palestine it changed hands several times, and even completely consumed (non-existent) between 1949 and 1967.
It should be noted, that had it not been for the 1967 War, Palestine may have been totally lost to history, consumed by Israel, Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank).
Most Respectfully,
R
Oh for heaven's sake. You understand this perfectly.
(REFERENCEs - In addition to that Previously Cited)
I suppose that technically, an argument can be made that both of these Resolution, adopted by the General Assemble are enforceable principles (quasi-Law) only to the extent that the UN Security Council has applied them. But of course, this is subject to adjudication by International Legal authorities. However, in most cases, in nearly every case, these two principles (article specific) have been applied internationally as if they were common or customary law; without challenge.
217 A (III). Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 15: A/RES/3/217 A
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
61/295. United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples
Article 33: A/RES/61/295
Affirming that indigenous peoples are equal to all other peoples, while recognizing the right of all peoples to be different, to consider themselves different, And to be respected as such, ...
(1) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine their own identity or membership in accordance with their customs and traditions. This does not impair the right of indigenous individuals to obtain citizenship of the States in which they live.
(2) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine the structures and to select the membership of their institutions in accordance with their own procedures.
(CONTEXT)
When one cites the term "Palestine" relative to the border issues, one must recognize the time reference frame to which the term is applied.
There is the "Palestine" of pre-Independence of Israel in which that designation applied to the territory to which the Mandate of Palestine was applicable (Part 1--- Para 1 --- Palestine Order in Council).
Then, there was the duration in which the 1949 Armistice Agreements were intact. A period in which the State of Israel co-existed with Sovereign Jordanian Territory called the West Bank, and the Egyptian Military Governorship of Gaza. This was a period in which, for all practical purposed, the legal entity formerly known as "Palestine" under the Order in Council, was no longer subject to the Order in Council; only existing in an historical context.
Then, there was the 1967 Outbreak of Hostilities, in which both the West Bank and Gaza Strip came under Israeli Military Control (Article 42 - Hague Convention 1907); territory occupied under the authority of the Israeli Defense Force (IDF); extending only where the IDF authority could be exercised. The West Bank was still sovereign Jordanian territory; however the Gaza Strip was Occupied formerly All Palestine Government (APG) Territory (an Egyptian Protectorate); the APG having been dissolved by the Egyptian Government in 1959.
Then, there was a period (beginning in late-1988) in which the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), having been appointed by the Arab League as the sole representative of the Palestinian People, declared Independence on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the General Assembly Resolutions 181(II) (1947) --- and demanded that Israel's withdrawal from all the Palestinian and Arab territories which it has occupied since 1967, including Arab Jerusalem. In acknowledgement, the UN then:
Aware of the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council in line with General Assembly resolution 181 (II) and in exercise of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people,
1. Acknowledges the proclamation of the State of Palestine
by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988;2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;
3. Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;
(Sub-context and Palestinian Position) Source: PLO - Negotiation Affairs Department
2. Key Facts
- The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt.
- A basic principle of international law is that no state may acquire territory by force. Israel has no valid claim to any part of the territory it occupied in 1967.
- The international community does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of the oPt, including East Jerusalem.
Without regard to arguments that have been advanced that Article 32 of the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) granted some special association or meaning with "Palestine", the intent of the article was to ensure that the citizenship established by the various Mandates was addressed and that no "stateless persons" were created in the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.
ARTICLE I6.
Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.
ARTICLE 32.
Persons over eighteen years of age, habitually resident in territory detached from Turkey in accordance with the present Treaty, and differing in race from the majority of the population of such territory shall, within two years from the coming into force of the present Treaty, be entitled to opt for the nationality of one of the States in which the majority of the population is of the same race as the person exercising the right to opt, subject to the consent of that State.
The Treaty of Lausanne did not have an practical effect on the application of either Nationality or Citizenship over the implementation of the process or the scope in which the Mandatory applied it:
REPORT BY HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT TO THE COUNCIL OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS ON THE ADMINISTRATION OF PALESTINE AND TRANS-JORDAN FOR THE YEAR DECEMBER 1925 (NOTE: After the Treaty of Lausanne)
The regulations under the Immigration Ordinance, 1925, set up a statutory procedure for the introduction of Jewish immigrant labour into Palestine. The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council, 1925, facilitates the acquisition of Palestinian nationality by persons settling in the country, including those who opted for Palestinian citizenship under the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. There was a remarkable development of Jewish Co-operative Societies, constituted principally for building, agricultural and mutual credit purposes. Twenty-six Jewish companies were formed.
-----------------
The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council which was made in August, 1925, provides for the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by persons habitually resident in the country who were Ottoman subjects, and persons who were foreign subjects and take up permanent residence. -----------------
Article 5 of the Order facilitates the acquisition of citizenship by Jews who opted therefor under Article 2 of the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. The qualifications for naturalization are simple: two years' residence in Palestine out of the three years preceding application, good character, and the declared intention to settle in Palestine; knowledge of Hebrew is accepted under the literacy qualification. In special cases the High Commissioner is empowered to grant naturalization even if the period of residence has not been within the three years preceding application. Special naturalization offices have already been opened in Jerusalem, Haifa and Tiberias; and an officer is visiting the Jewish agricultural settlements in the north to receive applications on the spot.The position of the Mandatory was accepted without objection by the Order in Council.
The argument presented by the pro-Palestinian advocates that the Palestinians had some sovereign and pre-existing borders that were to prevent the legitimate establishment of Israel in 1948, pursuant to the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" adopted by the General Assembly under principle accepted under the Charter [Chapter I - Article 1(2) (equal rights and self-determination of peoples)] is simply a fallacy.
The habitual Inhabitance were given citizenship within the Mandate to which they were resident. This is a process that evolves depending on the sovereign authority or government holding or responsible for the territory. As you (anyone) can see, in the case of Palestine it changed hands several times, and even completely consumed (non-existent) between 1949 and 1967.
It should be noted, that had it not been for the 1967 War, Palestine may have been totally lost to history, consumed by Israel, Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank).
Most Respectfully,
R
P F Tinmore, et al,
Oh for heaven's sake. You understand this perfectly.
(REFERENCEs - In addition to that Previously Cited)
I suppose that technically, an argument can be made that both of these Resolution, adopted by the General Assemble are enforceable principles (quasi-Law) only to the extent that the UN Security Council has applied them. But of course, this is subject to adjudication by International Legal authorities. However, in most cases, in nearly every case, these two principles (article specific) have been applied internationally as if they were common or customary law; without challenge.
217 A (III). Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 15: A/RES/3/217 A
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
61/295. United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples
Article 33: A/RES/61/295
Affirming that indigenous peoples are equal to all other peoples, while recognizing the right of all peoples to be different, to consider themselves different, And to be respected as such, ...
(1) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine their own identity or membership in accordance with their customs and traditions. This does not impair the right of indigenous individuals to obtain citizenship of the States in which they live.
(2) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine the structures and to select the membership of their institutions in accordance with their own procedures.
(CONTEXT)
When one cites the term "Palestine" relative to the border issues, one must recognize the time reference frame to which the term is applied.
There is the "Palestine" of pre-Independence of Israel in which that designation applied to the territory to which the Mandate of Palestine was applicable (Part 1--- Para 1 --- Palestine Order in Council).
Then, there was the duration in which the 1949 Armistice Agreements were intact. A period in which the State of Israel co-existed with Sovereign Jordanian Territory called the West Bank, and the Egyptian Military Governorship of Gaza. This was a period in which, for all practical purposed, the legal entity formerly known as "Palestine" under the Order in Council, was no longer subject to the Order in Council; only existing in an historical context.
Then, there was the 1967 Outbreak of Hostilities, in which both the West Bank and Gaza Strip came under Israeli Military Control (Article 42 - Hague Convention 1907); territory occupied under the authority of the Israeli Defense Force (IDF); extending only where the IDF authority could be exercised. The West Bank was still sovereign Jordanian territory; however the Gaza Strip was Occupied formerly All Palestine Government (APG) Territory (an Egyptian Protectorate); the APG having been dissolved by the Egyptian Government in 1959.
Then, there was a period (beginning in late-1988) in which the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), having been appointed by the Arab League as the sole representative of the Palestinian People, declared Independence on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the General Assembly Resolutions 181(II) (1947) --- and demanded that Israel's withdrawal from all the Palestinian and Arab territories which it has occupied since 1967, including Arab Jerusalem. In acknowledgement, the UN then:
Aware of the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council in line with General Assembly resolution 181 (II) and in exercise of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people,
1. Acknowledges the proclamation of the State of Palestine
2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;
3. Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;
(Sub-context and Palestinian Position) Source: PLO - Negotiation Affairs Department
2. Key Facts
(COMMENT)
- The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt.
- A basic principle of international law is that no state may acquire territory by force. Israel has no valid claim to any part of the territory it occupied in 1967.
- The international community does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of the oPt, including East Jerusalem.
Without regard to arguments that have been advanced that Article 32 of the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) granted some special association or meaning with "Palestine", the intent of the article was to ensure that the citizenship established by the various Mandates was addressed and that no "stateless persons" were created in the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.
ARTICLE I6.
Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.
ARTICLE 32.
Persons over eighteen years of age, habitually resident in territory detached from Turkey in accordance with the present Treaty, and differing in race from the majority of the population of such territory shall, within two years from the coming into force of the present Treaty, be entitled to opt for the nationality of one of the States in which the majority of the population is of the same race as the person exercising the right to opt, subject to the consent of that State.
The Treaty of Lausanne did not have an practical effect on the application of either Nationality or Citizenship over the implementation of the process or the scope in which the Mandatory applied it:
REPORT BY HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT TO THE COUNCIL OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS ON THE ADMINISTRATION OF PALESTINE AND TRANS-JORDAN FOR THE YEAR DECEMBER 1925 (NOTE: After the Treaty of Lausanne)
The regulations under the Immigration Ordinance, 1925, set up a statutory procedure for the introduction of Jewish immigrant labour into Palestine. The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council, 1925, facilitates the acquisition of Palestinian nationality by persons settling in the country, including those who opted for Palestinian citizenship under the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. There was a remarkable development of Jewish Co-operative Societies, constituted principally for building, agricultural and mutual credit purposes. Twenty-six Jewish companies were formed.
-----------------The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council which was made in August, 1925, provides for the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by persons habitually resident in the country who were Ottoman subjects, and persons who were foreign subjects and take up permanent residence.
-----------------Article 5 of the Order facilitates the acquisition of citizenship by Jews who opted therefor under Article 2 of the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. The qualifications for naturalization are simple: two years' residence in Palestine out of the three years preceding application, good character, and the declared intention to settle in Palestine; knowledge of Hebrew is accepted under the literacy qualification. In special cases the High Commissioner is empowered to grant naturalization even if the period of residence has not been within the three years preceding application. Special naturalization offices have already been opened in Jerusalem, Haifa and Tiberias; and an officer is visiting the Jewish agricultural settlements in the north to receive applications on the spot.
The position of the Mandatory was accepted without objection by the Order in Council.
The argument presented by the pro-Palestinian advocates that the Palestinians had some sovereign and pre-existing borders that were to prevent the legitimate establishment of Israel in 1948, pursuant to the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" adopted by the General Assembly under principle accepted under the Charter [Chapter I - Article 1(2) (equal rights and self-determination of peoples)] is simply a fallacy.
The habitual Inhabitance were given citizenship within the Mandate to which they were resident. This is a process that evolves depending on the sovereign authority or government holding or responsible for the territory. As you (anyone) can see, in the case of Palestine it changed hands several times, and even completely consumed (non-existent) between 1949 and 1967.
It should be noted, that had it not been for the 1967 War, Palestine may have been totally lost to history, consumed by Israel, Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank).
Most Respectfully,
R
Two points of note that seem just wrong
1) you cant declare yourself a nationality unless the nation accepts you, if you could then every muslims would declare themselves American.
2) what 1967 borders are meant when two existed in 1967, pre war and post5 war.
RoccoR
Gold Member
Phoenall, et al,
Yes, there seems to be a misunderstanding.
POINT #1: "you cant declare yourself a nationality unless the nation accepts you, if you could then every muslims would declare themselves American."
JERICHO CONFERENCE:
"In December 1948 the Secretary of State authorized the US Consul in Amman to advise King Abdullah and the officials of Transjordan that the US accepted the principles contained in the resolutions of the Jericho Conference, and that the US viewed incorporation with Transjordan as the logical disposition of Arab Palestine. The United States subsequently extended de jure recognition to the Government of Transjordan and the Government of Israel on the same day, 31 January 1949."
867N.01/6–249
Memorandum, Presumably Prepared by Ambassador at Large Philip C. Jessup1
Paris, June 2, 1949. top secret
In answer to a number of the points raised by Mr. Bevin with the Secretary and amplified by Mr. Wright to Mr. Jessup, the following preliminary comments can be made:
The boundary used for the purpose of Jordanian Sovereignty traced the Armistice Line; to be formalized at a later time.
I apologize if I did not make this more clear. Most of these are after thoughts with me. (Old Man Syndrome.)
Most Respectfully,
R
Yes, there seems to be a misunderstanding.
(COMMENT)
POINT #1: "you cant declare yourself a nationality unless the nation accepts you, if you could then every muslims would declare themselves American."
- The intent is relative only to the "right of self-determination." The Israelis declared their territorial sovereignty and independence. Thus, they declared a independence by the "right of self-determination." Similarly, the Arab-Palestinians declared independence.
- When, in April 1950, The Parliament of the Hashemite Kingdom (Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented) unanimously approved a motion to unite the two banks of the Jordan River, physically expanding the sovereignty of the Kingdom (as a political result of the Jericho Conference of 1948), the permanent internationally recognized boundaries of around the West Bank were established; without regard to what countries approved of the action or disapproved.
JERICHO CONFERENCE:
"In December 1948 the Secretary of State authorized the US Consul in Amman to advise King Abdullah and the officials of Transjordan that the US accepted the principles contained in the resolutions of the Jericho Conference, and that the US viewed incorporation with Transjordan as the logical disposition of Arab Palestine. The United States subsequently extended de jure recognition to the Government of Transjordan and the Government of Israel on the same day, 31 January 1949."
867N.01/6–249
Memorandum, Presumably Prepared by Ambassador at Large Philip C. Jessup1
Paris, June 2, 1949. top secret
In answer to a number of the points raised by Mr. Bevin with the Secretary and amplified by Mr. Wright to Mr. Jessup, the following preliminary comments can be made:
- 1. It is agreed that it would be desirable to secure agreement in principle before delineation of Israeli’s frontiers that water resources will be used for the benefit of all states concerned.
- 2. It is agreed that Abdullah should not enter into the suggested separate conversations in Jerusalem parallel to the Lausanne talks, and the United States Legation at Amman has been instructed so to advise the King.
- 3. It is agreed that it would be feasible for Transjordan to proclaim the incorporation of the administered Palestine territory in the near future with a proviso regarding the final boundary settlement at a later date. However, final decision on this point and also on the advisability of announcing the extension of the United Kingdom Treaty to cover the administered territories is reserved pending further consultations now in progress.
- 4. Further details will be communicated by the United States Embassy in London to Mr. Wright.
I apologize if I did not make this more clear. Most of these are after thoughts with me. (Old Man Syndrome.)
Most Respectfully,
R
Last edited:
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
- Dec 6, 2009
- 86,342
- 4,873
- 1,815
You can forget this one.P F Tinmore, et al,
Oh for heaven's sake. You understand this perfectly.
(REFERENCEs - In addition to that Previously Cited)
I suppose that technically, an argument can be made that both of these Resolution, adopted by the General Assemble are enforceable principles (quasi-Law) only to the extent that the UN Security Council has applied them. But of course, this is subject to adjudication by International Legal authorities. However, in most cases, in nearly every case, these two principles (article specific) have been applied internationally as if they were common or customary law; without challenge.
217 A (III). Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 15: A/RES/3/217 A
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
61/295. United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples
Article 33: A/RES/61/295
Affirming that indigenous peoples are equal to all other peoples, while recognizing the right of all peoples to be different, to consider themselves different, And to be respected as such, ...
(1) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine their own identity or membership in accordance with their customs and traditions. This does not impair the right of indigenous individuals to obtain citizenship of the States in which they live.
(2) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine the structures and to select the membership of their institutions in accordance with their own procedures.
(CONTEXT)
When one cites the term "Palestine" relative to the border issues, one must recognize the time reference frame to which the term is applied.
There is the "Palestine" of pre-Independence of Israel in which that designation applied to the territory to which the Mandate of Palestine was applicable (Part 1--- Para 1 --- Palestine Order in Council).
Then, there was the duration in which the 1949 Armistice Agreements were intact. A period in which the State of Israel co-existed with Sovereign Jordanian Territory called the West Bank, and the Egyptian Military Governorship of Gaza. This was a period in which, for all practical purposed, the legal entity formerly known as "Palestine" under the Order in Council, was no longer subject to the Order in Council; only existing in an historical context.
Then, there was the 1967 Outbreak of Hostilities, in which both the West Bank and Gaza Strip came under Israeli Military Control (Article 42 - Hague Convention 1907); territory occupied under the authority of the Israeli Defense Force (IDF); extending only where the IDF authority could be exercised. The West Bank was still sovereign Jordanian territory; however the Gaza Strip was Occupied formerly All Palestine Government (APG) Territory (an Egyptian Protectorate); the APG having been dissolved by the Egyptian Government in 1959.
Then, there was a period (beginning in late-1988) in which the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), having been appointed by the Arab League as the sole representative of the Palestinian People, declared Independence on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the General Assembly Resolutions 181(II) (1947) --- and demanded that Israel's withdrawal from all the Palestinian and Arab territories which it has occupied since 1967, including Arab Jerusalem. In acknowledgement, the UN then:
Aware of the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council in line with General Assembly resolution 181 (II) and in exercise of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people,
1. Acknowledges the proclamation of the State of Palestine
2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;
3. Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;
(Sub-context and Palestinian Position) Source: PLO - Negotiation Affairs Department
2. Key Facts
(COMMENT)
- The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt.
- A basic principle of international law is that no state may acquire territory by force. Israel has no valid claim to any part of the territory it occupied in 1967.
- The international community does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of the oPt, including East Jerusalem.
Without regard to arguments that have been advanced that Article 32 of the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) granted some special association or meaning with "Palestine", the intent of the article was to ensure that the citizenship established by the various Mandates was addressed and that no "stateless persons" were created in the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.
ARTICLE I6.
Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.
ARTICLE 32.
Persons over eighteen years of age, habitually resident in territory detached from Turkey in accordance with the present Treaty, and differing in race from the majority of the population of such territory shall, within two years from the coming into force of the present Treaty, be entitled to opt for the nationality of one of the States in which the majority of the population is of the same race as the person exercising the right to opt, subject to the consent of that State.
The Treaty of Lausanne did not have an practical effect on the application of either Nationality or Citizenship over the implementation of the process or the scope in which the Mandatory applied it:
REPORT BY HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT TO THE COUNCIL OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS ON THE ADMINISTRATION OF PALESTINE AND TRANS-JORDAN FOR THE YEAR DECEMBER 1925 (NOTE: After the Treaty of Lausanne)
The regulations under the Immigration Ordinance, 1925, set up a statutory procedure for the introduction of Jewish immigrant labour into Palestine. The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council, 1925, facilitates the acquisition of Palestinian nationality by persons settling in the country, including those who opted for Palestinian citizenship under the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. There was a remarkable development of Jewish Co-operative Societies, constituted principally for building, agricultural and mutual credit purposes. Twenty-six Jewish companies were formed.
-----------------The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council which was made in August, 1925, provides for the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by persons habitually resident in the country who were Ottoman subjects, and persons who were foreign subjects and take up permanent residence.
-----------------Article 5 of the Order facilitates the acquisition of citizenship by Jews who opted therefor under Article 2 of the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. The qualifications for naturalization are simple: two years' residence in Palestine out of the three years preceding application, good character, and the declared intention to settle in Palestine; knowledge of Hebrew is accepted under the literacy qualification. In special cases the High Commissioner is empowered to grant naturalization even if the period of residence has not been within the three years preceding application. Special naturalization offices have already been opened in Jerusalem, Haifa and Tiberias; and an officer is visiting the Jewish agricultural settlements in the north to receive applications on the spot.
The position of the Mandatory was accepted without objection by the Order in Council.
The argument presented by the pro-Palestinian advocates that the Palestinians had some sovereign and pre-existing borders that were to prevent the legitimate establishment of Israel in 1948, pursuant to the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" adopted by the General Assembly under principle accepted under the Charter [Chapter I - Article 1(2) (equal rights and self-determination of peoples)] is simply a fallacy.
The habitual Inhabitance were given citizenship within the Mandate to which they were resident. This is a process that evolves depending on the sovereign authority or government holding or responsible for the territory. As you (anyone) can see, in the case of Palestine it changed hands several times, and even completely consumed (non-existent) between 1949 and 1967.
It should be noted, that had it not been for the 1967 War, Palestine may have been totally lost to history, consumed by Israel, Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank).
Most Respectfully,
R
A RES 61 295 - United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples - UN Documents Gathering a body of global agreements
I know you have posted it many times but it applies to indigenous people who live in territory that was conquered before it was illegal to acquire territory by force. The US and Australia, for example.
I don't see how it applies to Palestine.
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
Where do you come up with this stuff.
A/RES/61/295, a 1970 Resolution, has nothing in content of Declaration that may be used to deny the Israeli People their "right to self-determination," exercised in conformity with international law. It has only ONE global limitation - and it was not the one you suggested. It affirms the application of the "right of self-determination," as stipulated in the UN Charter [Article 1(2) of the Charter (1945)], and as made applicable to the 1961Convention of Statelessness. It Recognizes and reaffirms "that indigenous individuals are entitled without discrimination to all human rights recognized in international law, and that indigenous peoples possess collective rights which are indispensable for their existence, well-being and integral development as peoples." It embodies some of the exact same concepts and principles of the 1933 Convention on Rights and Duties of States, to include, but not limited to:
Having said that, the 1970 A/RES/61/295 does have a limitation that you did not point-out. The Declaration CANNOT retroactively take away or impair the vested rights of the Jewish State acquired under existing laws - treaties - charters - or conventions. NOR can the 1970 Declaration creates new obligations, imposes new duties, or some other legal effect to actions already past. It cannot implement ex post facto law. (It does not apply to either America or Australia; but it does apply (through the Charter) to the defense of Israel from external Arab Forces attempting to challenge the territorial integrity and political independence of Israel.
The State of Israel was not territory "acquired by force." It was a state created by the "right of self-determination" (under UN Guidance) and defended under Chapter VII - Article 51of the Charter (1945) from multiple Armed Arab Forces acting in violation of Chapter I - Article 2(4) of the Charter; use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state; as further articulated in the companion Resolution of 1970: the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (A/RES/25/2625):
R
Where do you come up with this stuff.
(COMMENT)
A/RES/61/295, a 1970 Resolution, has nothing in content of Declaration that may be used to deny the Israeli People their "right to self-determination," exercised in conformity with international law. It has only ONE global limitation - and it was not the one you suggested. It affirms the application of the "right of self-determination," as stipulated in the UN Charter [Article 1(2) of the Charter (1945)], and as made applicable to the 1961Convention of Statelessness. It Recognizes and reaffirms "that indigenous individuals are entitled without discrimination to all human rights recognized in international law, and that indigenous peoples possess collective rights which are indispensable for their existence, well-being and integral development as peoples." It embodies some of the exact same concepts and principles of the 1933 Convention on Rights and Duties of States, to include, but not limited to:
ARTICLE 1
The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications:
a ) a permanent population;
b ) a defined territory;
c ) government; and
d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
ARTICLE 3
The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence, to provide for its conservation and prosperity, and consequently to organize itself as it sees fit, to legislate upon its interests, administer its services, and to define the jurisdiction and competence of its courts.
In terms of the Contemporary usage, A/RES/61/295 defines "Indigenous Peoples" and provides that "Indigenous peoples and individuals have the right to belong to an indigenous community or nation, in accordance with the traditions and customs of the community or nation concerned. No discrimination of any kind may arise from the exercise of such a right." This, of course applies to the Jewish People that through the "right of self-determination" in 1948 - form the modern day State of Israel; as well as it does the Arab Palestinian People which, through the "right of self-determination" in 1988, formed the modern day State of Palestine.The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications:
a ) a permanent population;
b ) a defined territory;
c ) government; and
d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence, to provide for its conservation and prosperity, and consequently to organize itself as it sees fit, to legislate upon its interests, administer its services, and to define the jurisdiction and competence of its courts.
Having said that, the 1970 A/RES/61/295 does have a limitation that you did not point-out. The Declaration CANNOT retroactively take away or impair the vested rights of the Jewish State acquired under existing laws - treaties - charters - or conventions. NOR can the 1970 Declaration creates new obligations, imposes new duties, or some other legal effect to actions already past. It cannot implement ex post facto law. (It does not apply to either America or Australia; but it does apply (through the Charter) to the defense of Israel from external Arab Forces attempting to challenge the territorial integrity and political independence of Israel.
The State of Israel was not territory "acquired by force." It was a state created by the "right of self-determination" (under UN Guidance) and defended under Chapter VII - Article 51of the Charter (1945) from multiple Armed Arab Forces acting in violation of Chapter I - Article 2(4) of the Charter; use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state; as further articulated in the companion Resolution of 1970: the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (A/RES/25/2625):
Every State has the duty to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. Such a threat or use of force constitutes a violation of international law and the Charter of the United Nations and shall never be employed as a means of settling international issues.
Every State has the duty to refrain from any forcible action which deprives peoples referred to in the elaboration of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of their right to self-determination and freedom and independence.
Every State has the duty to refrain from organizing or encouraging the organization of irregular forces or armed bands including mercenaries, for incursion into the territory of another State.
Every State has the duty to refrain from organizing, instigating, assisting or participating in acts of civil strife or terrorist acts in another State or acquiescing in organized activities within its territory directed towards the commission of such acts, when the acts referred to in the present paragraph involve a threat or use of force.
R
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
- Dec 6, 2009
- 86,342
- 4,873
- 1,815
ARTICLE 1
The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications:
a ) a permanent population;
Israel's "permanent population" was a bunch of recent immigrants. There was not a native in sight.b ) a defined territory;
Israel had no defined territory. Israel defined no territory in its declaration of independence. Israel still has no defined territory.c ) government; and
Israel's government was established by a foreign organization. A government derives its legitimacy by the will of the people. The government of Israel was created with the opposition of virtually the entire native population.d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
- Dec 6, 2009
- 86,342
- 4,873
- 1,815
What does the term "peoples" mean?P F Tinmore, et al,
Oh for heaven's sake. You understand this perfectly.
(REFERENCEs - In addition to that Previously Cited)
I suppose that technically, an argument can be made that both of these Resolution, adopted by the General Assemble are enforceable principles (quasi-Law) only to the extent that the UN Security Council has applied them. But of course, this is subject to adjudication by International Legal authorities. However, in most cases, in nearly every case, these two principles (article specific) have been applied internationally as if they were common or customary law; without challenge.
217 A (III). Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 15: A/RES/3/217 A
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
61/295. United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples
Article 33: A/RES/61/295
Affirming that indigenous peoples are equal to all other peoples, while recognizing the right of all peoples to be different, to consider themselves different, And to be respected as such, ...
(1) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine their own identity or membership in accordance with their customs and traditions. This does not impair the right of indigenous individuals to obtain citizenship of the States in which they live.
(2) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine the structures and to select the membership of their institutions in accordance with their own procedures.
(CONTEXT)
When one cites the term "Palestine" relative to the border issues, one must recognize the time reference frame to which the term is applied.
There is the "Palestine" of pre-Independence of Israel in which that designation applied to the territory to which the Mandate of Palestine was applicable (Part 1--- Para 1 --- Palestine Order in Council).
Then, there was the duration in which the 1949 Armistice Agreements were intact. A period in which the State of Israel co-existed with Sovereign Jordanian Territory called the West Bank, and the Egyptian Military Governorship of Gaza. This was a period in which, for all practical purposed, the legal entity formerly known as "Palestine" under the Order in Council, was no longer subject to the Order in Council; only existing in an historical context.
Then, there was the 1967 Outbreak of Hostilities, in which both the West Bank and Gaza Strip came under Israeli Military Control (Article 42 - Hague Convention 1907); territory occupied under the authority of the Israeli Defense Force (IDF); extending only where the IDF authority could be exercised. The West Bank was still sovereign Jordanian territory; however the Gaza Strip was Occupied formerly All Palestine Government (APG) Territory (an Egyptian Protectorate); the APG having been dissolved by the Egyptian Government in 1959.
Then, there was a period (beginning in late-1988) in which the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), having been appointed by the Arab League as the sole representative of the Palestinian People, declared Independence on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the General Assembly Resolutions 181(II) (1947) --- and demanded that Israel's withdrawal from all the Palestinian and Arab territories which it has occupied since 1967, including Arab Jerusalem. In acknowledgement, the UN then:
Aware of the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council in line with General Assembly resolution 181 (II) and in exercise of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people,
1. Acknowledges the proclamation of the State of Palestine
2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;
3. Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;
(Sub-context and Palestinian Position) Source: PLO - Negotiation Affairs Department
2. Key Facts
(COMMENT)
- The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt.
- A basic principle of international law is that no state may acquire territory by force. Israel has no valid claim to any part of the territory it occupied in 1967.
- The international community does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of the oPt, including East Jerusalem.
Without regard to arguments that have been advanced that Article 32 of the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) granted some special association or meaning with "Palestine", the intent of the article was to ensure that the citizenship established by the various Mandates was addressed and that no "stateless persons" were created in the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.
ARTICLE I6.
Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.
ARTICLE 32.
Persons over eighteen years of age, habitually resident in territory detached from Turkey in accordance with the present Treaty, and differing in race from the majority of the population of such territory shall, within two years from the coming into force of the present Treaty, be entitled to opt for the nationality of one of the States in which the majority of the population is of the same race as the person exercising the right to opt, subject to the consent of that State.
The Treaty of Lausanne did not have an practical effect on the application of either Nationality or Citizenship over the implementation of the process or the scope in which the Mandatory applied it:
REPORT BY HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT TO THE COUNCIL OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS ON THE ADMINISTRATION OF PALESTINE AND TRANS-JORDAN FOR THE YEAR DECEMBER 1925 (NOTE: After the Treaty of Lausanne)
The regulations under the Immigration Ordinance, 1925, set up a statutory procedure for the introduction of Jewish immigrant labour into Palestine. The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council, 1925, facilitates the acquisition of Palestinian nationality by persons settling in the country, including those who opted for Palestinian citizenship under the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. There was a remarkable development of Jewish Co-operative Societies, constituted principally for building, agricultural and mutual credit purposes. Twenty-six Jewish companies were formed.
-----------------The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council which was made in August, 1925, provides for the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by persons habitually resident in the country who were Ottoman subjects, and persons who were foreign subjects and take up permanent residence.
-----------------Article 5 of the Order facilitates the acquisition of citizenship by Jews who opted therefor under Article 2 of the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. The qualifications for naturalization are simple: two years' residence in Palestine out of the three years preceding application, good character, and the declared intention to settle in Palestine; knowledge of Hebrew is accepted under the literacy qualification. In special cases the High Commissioner is empowered to grant naturalization even if the period of residence has not been within the three years preceding application. Special naturalization offices have already been opened in Jerusalem, Haifa and Tiberias; and an officer is visiting the Jewish agricultural settlements in the north to receive applications on the spot.
The position of the Mandatory was accepted without objection by the Order in Council.
The argument presented by the pro-Palestinian advocates that the Palestinians had some sovereign and pre-existing borders that were to prevent the legitimate establishment of Israel in 1948, pursuant to the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" adopted by the General Assembly under principle accepted under the Charter [Chapter I - Article 1(2) (equal rights and self-determination of peoples)] is simply a fallacy.
The habitual Inhabitance were given citizenship within the Mandate to which they were resident. This is a process that evolves depending on the sovereign authority or government holding or responsible for the territory. As you (anyone) can see, in the case of Palestine it changed hands several times, and even completely consumed (non-existent) between 1949 and 1967.
It should be noted, that had it not been for the 1967 War, Palestine may have been totally lost to history, consumed by Israel, Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank).
Most Respectfully,
R
RoccoR
Gold Member
P F Tinmore, et al,
In the order in which asked ----
• Relative to the "Permanent Population:"
As discussed in the "declarations and explanations" accepted by the General Assembly in Resolution 273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations, the State of Israel did have delimitation of its territorial boundaries as originally established by General Assembly Resolution 181(II). However, in the process of an active defense against multiple Foreign Arab Armies (Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence), after exercising the "right of self-determination," these external foreign powers, together with the Palestinian Irregular Forces (Holy War Army and the Arab Liberation Army) failed to militarily overpower the new State of Israel; and instead lost ground. The attempt at a military conquest through the use of force was Arab, not Israeli. In the half century since the illegal attempt to prevent the Jewish People from exercising their right to self-determination, no nation has prevented the Arab Palestinian from pursuing in good faith negotiations for the early conclusion of a universal treaty on territorial issues; except the Palestinian People themselves.
• Relative to the issue of "Government:"
This comes up periodically, as if it has some significants --- germane to the issues at hand. Here is the quote and the link.
Culture and Knowledge
Indigenous peoples are the holders of unique languages, knowledge systems and beliefs and possess invaluable knowledge of practices for the sustainable management of natural resources. They have a special relation to and use of their traditional land. Their ancestral land has a fundamental importance for their collective physical and cultural survival as peoples. Indigenous peoples hold their own diverse concepts of development, based on their traditional values, visions, needs and priorities.
Most Respectfully,
R
In the order in which asked ----
(COMMENT)
• Relative to the "Permanent Population:"
The principle of "immigration" or "native status" is not the defining criteria to a "permanent population." YOU CANNOT just make-up your own version of the intent. In the case of the territory to which the Mandate was applied, the criteria was:
Article 7 Mandate for Palestine
The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.
• Relative to the "Defined Territory:"Article 7 Mandate for Palestine
The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.
As discussed in the "declarations and explanations" accepted by the General Assembly in Resolution 273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations, the State of Israel did have delimitation of its territorial boundaries as originally established by General Assembly Resolution 181(II). However, in the process of an active defense against multiple Foreign Arab Armies (Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence), after exercising the "right of self-determination," these external foreign powers, together with the Palestinian Irregular Forces (Holy War Army and the Arab Liberation Army) failed to militarily overpower the new State of Israel; and instead lost ground. The attempt at a military conquest through the use of force was Arab, not Israeli. In the half century since the illegal attempt to prevent the Jewish People from exercising their right to self-determination, no nation has prevented the Arab Palestinian from pursuing in good faith negotiations for the early conclusion of a universal treaty on territorial issues; except the Palestinian People themselves.
The process and procedures in the establishment conformed to the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" as outlined by the United Nations (Part I -Future constitution and government of Palestine) as stipulated in the 1947 Resolution. It was overseen by the UN Palestine Commission which announced for the Public Record (17 May 1948) that:
"During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."
"During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."
(UNITED NATIONS ANSWER)
This comes up periodically, as if it has some significants --- germane to the issues at hand. Here is the quote and the link.
Culture and Knowledge
Indigenous peoples are the holders of unique languages, knowledge systems and beliefs and possess invaluable knowledge of practices for the sustainable management of natural resources. They have a special relation to and use of their traditional land. Their ancestral land has a fundamental importance for their collective physical and cultural survival as peoples. Indigenous peoples hold their own diverse concepts of development, based on their traditional values, visions, needs and priorities.
Most Respectfully,
R
You can forget this one.P F Tinmore, et al,
Oh for heaven's sake. You understand this perfectly.
(REFERENCEs - In addition to that Previously Cited)
I suppose that technically, an argument can be made that both of these Resolution, adopted by the General Assemble are enforceable principles (quasi-Law) only to the extent that the UN Security Council has applied them. But of course, this is subject to adjudication by International Legal authorities. However, in most cases, in nearly every case, these two principles (article specific) have been applied internationally as if they were common or customary law; without challenge.
217 A (III). Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 15: A/RES/3/217 A
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
61/295. United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples
Article 33: A/RES/61/295
Affirming that indigenous peoples are equal to all other peoples, while recognizing the right of all peoples to be different, to consider themselves different, And to be respected as such, ...
(1) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine their own identity or membership in accordance with their customs and traditions. This does not impair the right of indigenous individuals to obtain citizenship of the States in which they live.
(2) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine the structures and to select the membership of their institutions in accordance with their own procedures.
(CONTEXT)
When one cites the term "Palestine" relative to the border issues, one must recognize the time reference frame to which the term is applied.
There is the "Palestine" of pre-Independence of Israel in which that designation applied to the territory to which the Mandate of Palestine was applicable (Part 1--- Para 1 --- Palestine Order in Council).
Then, there was the duration in which the 1949 Armistice Agreements were intact. A period in which the State of Israel co-existed with Sovereign Jordanian Territory called the West Bank, and the Egyptian Military Governorship of Gaza. This was a period in which, for all practical purposed, the legal entity formerly known as "Palestine" under the Order in Council, was no longer subject to the Order in Council; only existing in an historical context.
Then, there was the 1967 Outbreak of Hostilities, in which both the West Bank and Gaza Strip came under Israeli Military Control (Article 42 - Hague Convention 1907); territory occupied under the authority of the Israeli Defense Force (IDF); extending only where the IDF authority could be exercised. The West Bank was still sovereign Jordanian territory; however the Gaza Strip was Occupied formerly All Palestine Government (APG) Territory (an Egyptian Protectorate); the APG having been dissolved by the Egyptian Government in 1959.
Then, there was a period (beginning in late-1988) in which the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), having been appointed by the Arab League as the sole representative of the Palestinian People, declared Independence on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the General Assembly Resolutions 181(II) (1947) --- and demanded that Israel's withdrawal from all the Palestinian and Arab territories which it has occupied since 1967, including Arab Jerusalem. In acknowledgement, the UN then:
Aware of the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council in line with General Assembly resolution 181 (II) and in exercise of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people,
1. Acknowledges the proclamation of the State of Palestine
2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;
3. Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;
(Sub-context and Palestinian Position) Source: PLO - Negotiation Affairs Department
2. Key Facts
(COMMENT)
- The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt.
- A basic principle of international law is that no state may acquire territory by force. Israel has no valid claim to any part of the territory it occupied in 1967.
- The international community does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of the oPt, including East Jerusalem.
Without regard to arguments that have been advanced that Article 32 of the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) granted some special association or meaning with "Palestine", the intent of the article was to ensure that the citizenship established by the various Mandates was addressed and that no "stateless persons" were created in the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.
ARTICLE I6.
Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.
ARTICLE 32.
Persons over eighteen years of age, habitually resident in territory detached from Turkey in accordance with the present Treaty, and differing in race from the majority of the population of such territory shall, within two years from the coming into force of the present Treaty, be entitled to opt for the nationality of one of the States in which the majority of the population is of the same race as the person exercising the right to opt, subject to the consent of that State.
The Treaty of Lausanne did not have an practical effect on the application of either Nationality or Citizenship over the implementation of the process or the scope in which the Mandatory applied it:
REPORT BY HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT TO THE COUNCIL OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS ON THE ADMINISTRATION OF PALESTINE AND TRANS-JORDAN FOR THE YEAR DECEMBER 1925 (NOTE: After the Treaty of Lausanne)
The regulations under the Immigration Ordinance, 1925, set up a statutory procedure for the introduction of Jewish immigrant labour into Palestine. The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council, 1925, facilitates the acquisition of Palestinian nationality by persons settling in the country, including those who opted for Palestinian citizenship under the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. There was a remarkable development of Jewish Co-operative Societies, constituted principally for building, agricultural and mutual credit purposes. Twenty-six Jewish companies were formed.
-----------------The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council which was made in August, 1925, provides for the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by persons habitually resident in the country who were Ottoman subjects, and persons who were foreign subjects and take up permanent residence.
-----------------Article 5 of the Order facilitates the acquisition of citizenship by Jews who opted therefor under Article 2 of the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. The qualifications for naturalization are simple: two years' residence in Palestine out of the three years preceding application, good character, and the declared intention to settle in Palestine; knowledge of Hebrew is accepted under the literacy qualification. In special cases the High Commissioner is empowered to grant naturalization even if the period of residence has not been within the three years preceding application. Special naturalization offices have already been opened in Jerusalem, Haifa and Tiberias; and an officer is visiting the Jewish agricultural settlements in the north to receive applications on the spot.
The position of the Mandatory was accepted without objection by the Order in Council.
The argument presented by the pro-Palestinian advocates that the Palestinians had some sovereign and pre-existing borders that were to prevent the legitimate establishment of Israel in 1948, pursuant to the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" adopted by the General Assembly under principle accepted under the Charter [Chapter I - Article 1(2) (equal rights and self-determination of peoples)] is simply a fallacy.
The habitual Inhabitance were given citizenship within the Mandate to which they were resident. This is a process that evolves depending on the sovereign authority or government holding or responsible for the territory. As you (anyone) can see, in the case of Palestine it changed hands several times, and even completely consumed (non-existent) between 1949 and 1967.
It should be noted, that had it not been for the 1967 War, Palestine may have been totally lost to history, consumed by Israel, Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank).
Most Respectfully,
R
A RES 61 295 - United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples - UN Documents Gathering a body of global agreements
I know you have posted it many times but it applies to indigenous people who live in territory that was conquered before it was illegal to acquire territory by force. The US and Australia, for example.
I don't see how it applies to Palestine.
When did it become international law as that will give you a clue as to when it applies from. Once again you attempt to use recent resolutions on acts from 68 years ago. The first mention of the acquiring land through force being illegal was in 1967 after the war.
What does the term "peoples" mean?P F Tinmore, et al,
Oh for heaven's sake. You understand this perfectly.
(REFERENCEs - In addition to that Previously Cited)
I suppose that technically, an argument can be made that both of these Resolution, adopted by the General Assemble are enforceable principles (quasi-Law) only to the extent that the UN Security Council has applied them. But of course, this is subject to adjudication by International Legal authorities. However, in most cases, in nearly every case, these two principles (article specific) have been applied internationally as if they were common or customary law; without challenge.
217 A (III). Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 15: A/RES/3/217 A
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
61/295. United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples
Article 33: A/RES/61/295
Affirming that indigenous peoples are equal to all other peoples, while recognizing the right of all peoples to be different, to consider themselves different, And to be respected as such, ...
(1) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine their own identity or membership in accordance with their customs and traditions. This does not impair the right of indigenous individuals to obtain citizenship of the States in which they live.
(2) Indigenous peoples have the right to determine the structures and to select the membership of their institutions in accordance with their own procedures.
(CONTEXT)
When one cites the term "Palestine" relative to the border issues, one must recognize the time reference frame to which the term is applied.
There is the "Palestine" of pre-Independence of Israel in which that designation applied to the territory to which the Mandate of Palestine was applicable (Part 1--- Para 1 --- Palestine Order in Council).
Then, there was the duration in which the 1949 Armistice Agreements were intact. A period in which the State of Israel co-existed with Sovereign Jordanian Territory called the West Bank, and the Egyptian Military Governorship of Gaza. This was a period in which, for all practical purposed, the legal entity formerly known as "Palestine" under the Order in Council, was no longer subject to the Order in Council; only existing in an historical context.
Then, there was the 1967 Outbreak of Hostilities, in which both the West Bank and Gaza Strip came under Israeli Military Control (Article 42 - Hague Convention 1907); territory occupied under the authority of the Israeli Defense Force (IDF); extending only where the IDF authority could be exercised. The West Bank was still sovereign Jordanian territory; however the Gaza Strip was Occupied formerly All Palestine Government (APG) Territory (an Egyptian Protectorate); the APG having been dissolved by the Egyptian Government in 1959.
Then, there was a period (beginning in late-1988) in which the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), having been appointed by the Arab League as the sole representative of the Palestinian People, declared Independence on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the General Assembly Resolutions 181(II) (1947) --- and demanded that Israel's withdrawal from all the Palestinian and Arab territories which it has occupied since 1967, including Arab Jerusalem. In acknowledgement, the UN then:
Aware of the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council in line with General Assembly resolution 181 (II) and in exercise of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people,
1. Acknowledges the proclamation of the State of Palestine
2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;
3. Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;
(Sub-context and Palestinian Position) Source: PLO - Negotiation Affairs Department
2. Key Facts
(COMMENT)
- The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt.
- A basic principle of international law is that no state may acquire territory by force. Israel has no valid claim to any part of the territory it occupied in 1967.
- The international community does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of the oPt, including East Jerusalem.
Without regard to arguments that have been advanced that Article 32 of the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) granted some special association or meaning with "Palestine", the intent of the article was to ensure that the citizenship established by the various Mandates was addressed and that no "stateless persons" were created in the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.
ARTICLE I6.
Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.
ARTICLE 32.
Persons over eighteen years of age, habitually resident in territory detached from Turkey in accordance with the present Treaty, and differing in race from the majority of the population of such territory shall, within two years from the coming into force of the present Treaty, be entitled to opt for the nationality of one of the States in which the majority of the population is of the same race as the person exercising the right to opt, subject to the consent of that State.
The Treaty of Lausanne did not have an practical effect on the application of either Nationality or Citizenship over the implementation of the process or the scope in which the Mandatory applied it:
REPORT BY HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT TO THE COUNCIL OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS ON THE ADMINISTRATION OF PALESTINE AND TRANS-JORDAN FOR THE YEAR DECEMBER 1925 (NOTE: After the Treaty of Lausanne)
The regulations under the Immigration Ordinance, 1925, set up a statutory procedure for the introduction of Jewish immigrant labour into Palestine. The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council, 1925, facilitates the acquisition of Palestinian nationality by persons settling in the country, including those who opted for Palestinian citizenship under the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. There was a remarkable development of Jewish Co-operative Societies, constituted principally for building, agricultural and mutual credit purposes. Twenty-six Jewish companies were formed.
-----------------The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council which was made in August, 1925, provides for the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by persons habitually resident in the country who were Ottoman subjects, and persons who were foreign subjects and take up permanent residence.
-----------------Article 5 of the Order facilitates the acquisition of citizenship by Jews who opted therefor under Article 2 of the Palestine Legislative Council Election Order in Council, 1922. The qualifications for naturalization are simple: two years' residence in Palestine out of the three years preceding application, good character, and the declared intention to settle in Palestine; knowledge of Hebrew is accepted under the literacy qualification. In special cases the High Commissioner is empowered to grant naturalization even if the period of residence has not been within the three years preceding application. Special naturalization offices have already been opened in Jerusalem, Haifa and Tiberias; and an officer is visiting the Jewish agricultural settlements in the north to receive applications on the spot.
The position of the Mandatory was accepted without objection by the Order in Council.
The argument presented by the pro-Palestinian advocates that the Palestinians had some sovereign and pre-existing borders that were to prevent the legitimate establishment of Israel in 1948, pursuant to the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" adopted by the General Assembly under principle accepted under the Charter [Chapter I - Article 1(2) (equal rights and self-determination of peoples)] is simply a fallacy.
The habitual Inhabitance were given citizenship within the Mandate to which they were resident. This is a process that evolves depending on the sovereign authority or government holding or responsible for the territory. As you (anyone) can see, in the case of Palestine it changed hands several times, and even completely consumed (non-existent) between 1949 and 1967.
It should be noted, that had it not been for the 1967 War, Palestine may have been totally lost to history, consumed by Israel, Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank).
Most Respectfully,
R
People plural. as in arab muslim peoples or Persian peoples.
Not even those counted in the Ottoman census and the British census ?
Read the mandate of Palestine that delineates the Jewish territory and grants that parcel of land under International law to the Jews.
As was the all Palestinian government that was mainly arab league members. So you point is moot and fails at the first hurdle.
Which Israel has done repeatedly since 1949, the Palestinians have had no meaningful discourse over relations with other states.
P F Tinmore
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- Dec 6, 2009
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Thanks for the link.
Culture and Knowledge
Indigenous peoples are the holders of unique languages, knowledge systems and beliefs and possess invaluable knowledge of practices for the sustainable management of natural resources. They have a special relation to and use of their traditional land. Their ancestral land has a fundamental importance for their collective physical and cultural survival as peoples. Indigenous peoples hold their own diverse concepts of development, based on their traditional values, visions, needs and priorities.
It also said:
...they are the descendants - according to a common definition - of those who inhabited a country or a geographical region at the time when people of different cultures or ethnic origins arrived. The new arrivals later became dominant through conquest, occupation, settlement or other means.
Of course this conquest was not illegal back in the day of the conquest of the US, Australia, etc.. It was illegal, however, when the Zionists conquered Palestine by military force in 1948.
The foreign Zionists did not fit the above description of indigenous people at all. They did not know the language or culture. They had no connection to the land. They had never been there. There was no ancestral connection.
The Zionist's stated goal from the beginning was to colonize, conquer, and occupy Palestine. To call that a "defensive" position is a serious load of crap.
The do explain how Arabic is a unique Palestinian language, have knowledge of the land and were able to sustain land productivity. Is that why they stole productive land from the indigenous Jews and destroyed it in 3 years by over use and under irrigation/feeding.
How about details of the laws that made conquest of land illegal, bearing in mind that since 1948 the arab muslims have tried repeatedly to take Israel by force. They have also tried to take by force Kuwait, Iraq, Lebanon and Saudi. They have also taken by force most of the horn of Africa, former Yugoslavia, Philipines and parts of Europe.
So from 1099 until the dying days of the Ottoman empire which indigenous group worked the land, had their own language and worshiped as they had for the preceding 3,500 years
Did the Egyptians and Syrians know Hebrew or Aramaic then the indigenous language's for 4.500 years.
The DNA of the majority of Jewish immigrants has been matched to that of Jewish bodies from 4,500 years ago, the only ones that don't are a few recent converts
And your only source for this is some 19C writtingsthat have yet to be substantiated. But the arab muslims stated intent of conquest, genocide, enslavement and occupation is spouted every year.
Just the usual islamonazi LIES and propaganda that has never been substantiated by you or any other of the islamnazi stooges
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