Federal Government: Are We Getting Our Money's Worth?

[Foxfyre]

One more reminder that while certainly the kinds of people appointed, hired, or elected to government WILL affect how government is structured, how it will function, and the level of competence as well as incompetence and/or corruption that will exist, let's try to keep personalities and political parties out of this as much as possible. Otherwise it will just dissolve into yet another thread of 'whose is blackest' and we won't focus on what we do expect from our government.

 

[TNHarley]

I.expect roads, schools, bridges etc instead my expectations got et put last and I get intrusion, spied on and told what to.do. so, depending on how u look at it we are getting WAY.more

 

[Foxfyre]

Nightfox, wow. "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" is an ancient blast from psychology class. I hadn't thought about that in many decades, mostly perhaps because it fell somewhat out of favor when new theories were introduced. The most pervasive of those new theories is the 'attachment theory'; i.e. we are more motiviated by those we admire and who influence us and by what others expect of us than we are by our own perceptions of our personal needs.

For those who are not one of us pointy head psychology/poli-sci geeks, Maslow put forth a theory that people do not achieve the most noble of human characteristics; i.e. tolerance, creativity, problem solving, altruism, objectivity, etc. until much more basic needs such as food, shelter, security, love, acceptance, etc. have been met. Of course some now probably don't know about the theory, but they sometimes embrace it to excuse certain sub-classes of people; i.e. it is not the criminal's fault that he is a criminal but it is society's fault for not meeting his basic needs, etc.

Perhaps both or neither theory helps explain the current social trend to blame individuals and/or political parties for what is wrong in society, rather than looking at the effect and consequences of the system in place and why so many people are willing to defend it or at least are not bothered by it.

 

[Foxfyre]

I.expect roads, schools, bridges etc instead my expectations got et put last and I get intrusion, spied on and told what to.do. so, depending on how u look at it we are getting WAY.more

Most of us work or have worked damn hard for what we have and the tax dollars we send to Washington represent a substantial investment of our time, talent, and sometimes blood, sweat, and tears. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect it to be used for something important and necessary. When I think that pretty much every penny that I worked for and contributed in taxes over a lifetime could be wasted in one ill advised and, in my opinion, illegal federal grant or payoff or boondoggle, it is pretty damn frustrating and discouraging.

It should be infuriating and generating massive backlash, but it doesn't much anymore does it. Too many of us have become weary and perhaps desensitized into a kind of tolerance for corruption, waste, inefficiency, and ineffeciveness in our government. And when citizen groups do rise up in protest and try to make a difference, the government, and its surrogate media, have become strong enough to shout down, demonize, marginalize, and diminish those groups so that even some who share their goals and values view them unfavorably.

It is a dangerous thing if personal liberty is a value we hold dear.

 

[rightwinger]

We are not getting our money's worth

Republucans have blocked the government from doing anything to help...We The People

 

[iamwhatiseem]

One more reminder that while certainly the kinds of people appointed, hired, or elected to government WILL affect how government is structured, how it will function, and the level of competence as well as incompetence and/or corruption that will exist, let's try to keep personalities and political parties out of this as much as possible. Otherwise it will just dissolve into yet another thread of 'whose is blackest' and we won't focus on what we do expect from our government.

If only that was possible (my emphasis).
The greatest threat to our way of life is not any foreign entity, not military threat, not even terrorism. It is ourselves.

 

[Foxfyre]

We are not getting our money's worth

Republucans have blocked the government from doing anything to help...We The People

Specifically asking you to keep partisanship out of it RW. Would you please honor that simple request?

 

[Foxfyre]

One more reminder that while certainly the kinds of people appointed, hired, or elected to government WILL affect how government is structured, how it will function, and the level of competence as well as incompetence and/or corruption that will exist, let's try to keep personalities and political parties out of this as much as possible. Otherwise it will just dissolve into yet another thread of 'whose is blackest' and we won't focus on what we do expect from our government.

If only that was possible (my emphasis).
The greatest threat to our way of life is not any foreign entity, not military threat, not even terrorism. It is ourselves.

I agree. If we did not tolerate incompetence, waste, corruption, ineffectiveness from our government, it would not exist.

So why do we?

It is so easy, and apparently so comfortable, to point blame at somebody else. Everybody believes their own political party would do it right if the other didn't maliciously screw everything up. But when our own political party is in power in the White House and both houses of Congress, even with veto and filibuster proof majorities, nothing much gets fixed.

So is the problem we the people? Are are we helpless against a too powerful government that will frighten and manipulate and bribe us into submission so that it can take what it wants and do what it wants?

 

[rightwinger]

We are not getting our money's worth

Republucans have blocked the government from doing anything to help...We The People

Specifically asking you to keep partisanship out of it RW. Would you please honor that simple request?

Gladly

Government is here to do what is best for We the People. Our mindset right now is that anything done in the name of defense is patriotic and anything done to help people is socialism

What do we need?
Affordable healthcare
Infrastructure maintenance
Better educational opportunities
Modern power and communications grid

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Some of us just can not grasp the fact we're broke. And still petition the government who is currently doing a very poor job at its assigned tasks, to take on more tasks.

It's a very interesting "concept".

 

[rightwinger]

Some of us just can not grasp the fact we're broke. And still petition the government who is currently doing a very poor job at its assigned tasks, to take on more tasks.

It's a very interesting "concept".

We have the most powerful economy on earth

We are not broke....not even close

 

[Foxfyre]

We are not getting our money's worth

Republucans have blocked the government from doing anything to help...We The People

Specifically asking you to keep partisanship out of it RW. Would you please honor that simple request?

Gladly

Government is here to do what is best for We the People. Our mindset right now is that anything done in the name of defense is patriotic and anything done to help people is socialism

What do we need?
Affordable healthcare
Infrastructure maintenance
Better educational opportunities
Modern power and communications grid

Obamacare was supposed to provide us affordable healthcare. Instead it has produced a massive train wreck, has cost the public dearly in lost opportunities, reduced work hours, and much higher insurance premiums even, as I posted yesterday, government Medicare is spending $8 for the same things that cost $1 in the private sector. Emergency rooms are as crowded as ever and it is much more difficult to find and see a doctor than it was before. But it does allow 26-year-olds to live at home and mooch off their parent's insurance. Somehow, I think a lot of Americans expected more benefit than that.

Congress gave the President almost $1 trillion dollars of stimulus money to use for infrastructure. Very little of that money got used for infrastructure did it.

The USA spends more per capita than ANY other nation for education and is waaaaaaaay down the list of academic success in almost every single basic educational category, most especially math and science.

Modern power and communication grid is definitely an issue and it all is increasingly vulnerable to hackers, terrorist attacks, and widespread breakdown and failure. And yet almost none of the almost $17 trillion dollars that makes up the national debt has been used to address that.

Do you think we are getting our money's worth?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

OK, sure. I'm not going to entertain this debate, there are plenty of other threads on the subject.

 

[rightwinger]

Specifically asking you to keep partisanship out of it RW. Would you please honor that simple request?

Gladly

Government is here to do what is best for We the People. Our mindset right now is that anything done in the name of defense is patriotic and anything done to help people is socialism

What do we need?
Affordable healthcare
Infrastructure maintenance
Better educational opportunities
Modern power and communications grid

Obamacare was supposed to provide us affordable healthcare. Instead it has produced a massive train wreck, has cost the public dearly in lost opportunities, reduced work hours, and much higher insurance premiums even, as I posted yesterday, government Medicare is spending $8 for the same things that cost $1 in the private sector. Emergency rooms are as crowded as ever and it is much more difficult to find and see a doctor than it was before. But it does allow 26-year-olds to live at home and mooch off their parent's insurance. Somehow, I think a lot of Americans expected more benefit than that.

Congress gave the President almost $1 trillion dollars of stimulus money to use for infrastructure. Very little of that money got used for infrastructure did it.

The USA spends more per capita than ANY other nation for education and is waaaaaaaay down the list of academic success in almost every single basic educational category, most especially math and science.

Modern power and communication grid is definitely an issue and it all is increasingly vulnerable to hackers, terrorist attacks, and widespread breakdown and failure. And yet almost none of the almost $17 trillion dollars that makes up the national debt has been used to address that.

Do you think we are getting our money's worth?

Absolutely not

Obamacare was always a bandaid at best. We need cradle to grave assurance that you will be taken care of if you are sick

Education is built around passing arbitrary tests not making each student the best they can be

Senators want roads and bridges with their name on it. They don't want to spend money to fix what we have

But we do have a military that is stronger than the next ten militaries combined

 

[NightFox]

Nightfox, wow. "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" is an ancient blast from psychology class. I hadn't thought about that in many decades, mostly perhaps because it fell somewhat out of favor when new theories were introduced.

That wasn't the point of the reference my friend, the point was to illustrate the desire to climb the levels of the pyramid between basic needs and self actualization without having do the work that under normal circumstances would be required to do so. Maslow's pyramid just happened to fit but you could apply competing theories equally well.

The underlying point is the behavior that results from disconnecting what is offered from the price of what is offered at the personal level.

 

[Foxfyre]

Some of us just can not grasp the fact we're broke. And still petition the government who is currently doing a very poor job at its assigned tasks, to take on more tasks.

It's a very interesting "concept".

We have the most powerful economy on earth

We are not broke....not even close

Not yet, but do you accept a $17 trillion national debt as satisfactory when in recent years individual wages and net worth has significantly declined?

In the mid 20th Century, I believe the USA would have boasted the top 25 most economically powerful cities in the world. Now we boast four out of 25. We have lost prestige in the world and few nations fear us as an economic power these days.

Natural condition? Or because of government mismanagement?

I don't think we are getting our money's worth.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

One more reminder that while certainly the kinds of people appointed, hired, or elected to government WILL affect how government is structured, how it will function, and the level of competence as well as incompetence and/or corruption that will exist, let's try to keep personalities and political parties out of this as much as possible. Otherwise it will just dissolve into yet another thread of 'whose is blackest' and we won't focus on what we do expect from our government.

If only that was possible (my emphasis).
The greatest threat to our way of life is not any foreign entity, not military threat, not even terrorism. It is ourselves.

I agree. If we did not tolerate incompetence, waste, corruption, ineffectiveness from our government, it would not exist.

So why do we?

It is so easy, and apparently so comfortable, to point blame at somebody else. Everybody believes their own political party would do it right if the other didn't maliciously screw everything up. But when our own political party is in power in the White House and both houses of Congress, even with veto and filibuster proof majorities, nothing much gets fixed.

So is the problem we the people? Are are we helpless against a too powerful government that will frighten and manipulate and bribe us into submission so that it can take what it wants and do what it wants?

Americans could take back our country in a day. We still have the laws of the land on our side (but for who knows how much longer)
Unfortunately friend, it is highly unlikely Americans will wake up and stop the useless party bickering to make a change before it is too late. We have already lost in many ways, and getting worse every passing year as more and more laws and policies are passed that removes our freedoms and/or favors corporations and Wall Street o our detriment.
Our government is wholly corrupt on both sides. It will take a MASSIVE and COLLECTIVE movement to reverse what has already been done and our society is in no way one that will come together long enough to do such a thing.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

What the...I suddenly can't see half of the post in this thread...I think a database error is about to happen

 

[Foxfyre]

Nightfox, wow. "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" is an ancient blast from psychology class. I hadn't thought about that in many decades, mostly perhaps because it fell somewhat out of favor when new theories were introduced.

That wasn't the point of the reference my friend, the point was to illustrate the desire to climb the levels of the pyramid between basic needs and self actualization without having do the work that under normal circumstances would be required to do so. Maslow's pyramid just happened to fit but you could apply competing theories equally well.

The underlying point is the behavior that results from disconnecting what is offered from the price of what is offered at the personal level.

Well not to nitpick, but it isn't Maslow's pyramid. He didn't use a pyramid concept in any of his discussions, but others used his discussions to create the pyramid. And what does that have to do with what we can learn from it? Nothing at all.

But you do raise - I think - a pertinent point that does apply here. As a self employed person, the IRS sent me the forms to submit quarterly income and self employment taxes. The estimates were based on the prior year's income, but there would still be a penalty if I substantially underpaid the current year's taxes, so I had to keep meticulous records and know what my profits were to ensure that I wouldn't underpay.

When you write out the check to pay your taxes you are painfully aware of how much you are paying and how much it depletes your bank account.

I think most people, however, look at their take home pay as their wages and don't look at the deductions as earnings or that they are costing them anything. I think it morphs into a vague concept that those deductions are what their employer contributes to the government.

And that in turn extrapolates into whatever the government does for us as being free or government benevolence which is our right.

 

[Foxfyre]

If only that was possible (my emphasis).
The greatest threat to our way of life is not any foreign entity, not military threat, not even terrorism. It is ourselves.

I agree. If we did not tolerate incompetence, waste, corruption, ineffectiveness from our government, it would not exist.

So why do we?

It is so easy, and apparently so comfortable, to point blame at somebody else. Everybody believes their own political party would do it right if the other didn't maliciously screw everything up. But when our own political party is in power in the White House and both houses of Congress, even with veto and filibuster proof majorities, nothing much gets fixed.

So is the problem we the people? Are are we helpless against a too powerful government that will frighten and manipulate and bribe us into submission so that it can take what it wants and do what it wants?

Americans could take back our country in a day. We still have the laws of the land on our side (but for who knows how much longer)
Unfortunately friend, it is highly unlikely Americans will wake up and stop the useless party bickering to make a change before it is too late. We have already lost in many ways, and getting worse every passing year as more and more laws and policies are passed that removes our freedoms and/or favors corporations and Wall Street o our detriment.
Our government is wholly corrupt on both sides. It will take a MASSIVE and COLLECTIVE movement to reverse what has already been done and our society is in no way one that will come together long enough to do such a thing.

Yes, we have a government that is so corrupt that the strictly honest can no longer function effectively within it. The starry eyed idealistd who go triumphantly as Mr. Smith's to Washington to serve and make a diffrence quickly learn that you play ball with the old boys or you aren't assigned to any meaningful committees, you don't get face time at the microphones or on the floor of the house and senate. You will be marginalized and kept in the shadows until you shape up.

And each time they compromise a conviction they hold, there is less and less will to resist more compromise, until they become as corrupt as those they intended to reform. The ability to use the people's money to increase their own power, prestige, influence, and pesonal wealth becomes all too comfortable and important to do.

It is why changing just some of the people won't make a difference because it is a bad system we put them into. We must change the system itself.

And, as you may be suggesting here, I again believe this is the last generation with any chance to do so. It does require teaching each other and having the will and stamina to make it happen.