F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[SteadyMercury]

"more than enough evidence here". Here where? On the Message Board?

Good luck with that, it is impossible to pin down ManOnTheStreet to back up anything he says about the F-35. Most of my interactions with him have been like this:

MOTS: The F-35 has too much of an IR signature to be stealthy
SM: What is the F-35's IR signature and how does it compare to other fighters
MOTS: Go read some, everyone knows
SM: Tell me then, how are you measuring the F-35s IR signature and how does it compare?
MOTS: You're ignoring the evidence!
SM: Then type out the words to tell me the numbers
MOTS: Experts have measured it!
(etc.)

 

[SteadyMercury]

and thats the old version......upgrade it to current specs our Allies are buying and its even more deadly......at what half cost of F-35 if not less

F-15SAs and F-15Ks cost about 120 million.

from Bogdan F-35 Costs Down Despite Worries

According to figures provided by Bogdan, the average cost-per-unit in low-rate initial production lots six, seven and eight, the last three lots on contract, have fallen like this:

• F-35A conventional takeoff and landing model: $117 million, $112 million, $108 million.
• F-35B "jump-jet" model: $145 million, $137 million, $134 million.
• F-35C carrier variant: $134 million, $130 million, $129 million.

Those figures Include engines, profit for contractors and adjusts for inflation.

According to New F-35 Prices A 95M B 102M C 116M Breaking Defense - Defense industry news analysis and commentary prices for the F_35A will be well under 100 million by 2019.

I'll be interested to hear you explain how a 120 million dollar F-15 costs half an F-35.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

and thats the old version......upgrade it to current specs our Allies are buying and its even more deadly......at what half cost of F-35 if not less

F-15SAs and F-15Ks cost about 120 million.

from Bogdan F-35 Costs Down Despite Worries

According to figures provided by Bogdan, the average cost-per-unit in low-rate initial production lots six, seven and eight, the last three lots on contract, have fallen like this:

• F-35A conventional takeoff and landing model: $117 million, $112 million, $108 million.
• F-35B "jump-jet" model: $145 million, $137 million, $134 million.
• F-35C carrier variant: $134 million, $130 million, $129 million.

Those figures Include engines, profit for contractors and adjusts for inflation.

According to New F-35 Prices A 95M B 102M C 116M Breaking Defense - Defense industry news analysis and commentary prices for the F_35A will be well under 100 million by 2019.

I'll be interested to hear you explain how a 120 million dollar F-15 costs half an F-35.

And you can add another 4 million for the SE version. And then you only get the radar reduction from the front and the sides. You are still lighting up the Radar from the rear. Plus, you are still lighting up the IR from all sides.

 

[SteadyMercury]

In addition to limitations you mentioned I saw a video of F-15SE's internal weapons carriage dealie, it was clever for an add-on but payload capacity looked pretty limited.

It was like four slots that would open up (two on the side, two on the bottom) and a hydraulic rack would extend with a single hardpoint. Flying clean it wouldn't be useful for much more than air superiority role since you'd use two of them for AMRAAMs and the hardware can't carry anything in the 2000lb class like a GBU-31. Maybe they can put multiple SDBs on one of those internal hardpoints, not sure.

Another thing I don't get is how F-15SE would manage dynamic targeting if flying stealthy. It wouldn't have EOTS built into the airframe, so you'd need to carry a sniper pod externally like F-15E thus compromising your LO. Sure it could still deliver GPS guided weapons (like F-22 did over Syria) or manage target designation with the help of other assets but flying clean it would really be limited in targeting capabilities compared to F-35.

 

[I amso IR]

I have not been here for a while and it appears no one else has either. Anyone have any news on the F35? I've been thinking, dangerous for me, and been wondering why the Air Force insisted on using the F designation on the 35. It seems to me that small error could be the cause of much pain. I have to think that with the transition from the F22 and how it's capabilities as a pure fighter may have caused the critics to expect more from the 35 than it can deliver. The immediate impression by the F designation is eye to eye encounters, something the 35 is not intended to do. Since the 35 is to provide air interdiction, albeit from over the horizon or knocking out ground air defense, communicating with satellites and all that good stuff, perhaps a better designation would be A35. Get the hell away from the F factor. And to be fair, it can still, if all else fails, mix it up with the pure bred if it absolutely must. As us Army guys say, when all else fails, fix bayonets and charge. Then again, I may be wrong and if I am, oh well. I am still willing to wait and see. The 35 must be capable of something or the Corps would not give it a clean bill of health. Fleet defense comes to mind. Take Wang or Ivan out while he is preparing to engage.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Ivan will be 20,000 ft above shooting down at your low and slow ass. Better have the best electronic countermeasure suite ever seen cause you will need it

 

[I amso IR]

The proof is in the puddin. I am not a 35 driver with training so I cannot say. How many hours do you have in the 35? Being in a Viet Nam or Desert Storm frame of mind is not going to help you either. Every poster here is to old and to slow to be qualified to say. Opinions are like that certain bodily orifice, everybody has one and most stink. One thing Ivan won't be, is above that satellite which is tracking him for me and that F22 closing in. And he may or may not take me out. But you can be sure of one thing, I will be the last thing he ever concentrates on as he will be bait for a 4th gen fighter. It is all about numbers and an element of surprise. Something us arm chair generals are very short on. You keep telling folks to read as the information is "out there". Give me some sources. Make a list of your official sources and reading list so I can read them also, if you are so confident in them. The only fact I am certain of, is that usmessageboard is not one of them. I will admit to one thing however, the cost of air interdiction is way to large and the age of manned aerial fighters is short on time. I find the fact that a few years ago the west broke the Soviets back using economics and fear the same may happen to all of us, sooner than later. My confidence is in what the bean counters propose and our military scientists deem possible. Not in armchair pilots. Shoulda, coulda, woulda, is horse puckey.

 

[Manonthestreet]

How many hrs do you need to read specs of each....like speed rate of climb altitude supercruise or no supercruise........you can read cant you......maybe you just dont understand the implications.

 

[Manonthestreet]

You dont have enough F-22 to cover your ass......its only good against nations without an airforce

 

[I amso IR]

189 of them should be able to do the job. As for nations without an air force, why in the world would we need Gen 5 aircraft at all. Yes I am able to read, pro as well con reports. In fact I read a report involving a Naval aviator and Air Force aviator who are 35 drivers. While they lament the software problems and delays, they present a favorable opinion of the aircraft. They feel it is up to the job that is required of it when finally the software is finalized. So honestly, I again say, when completed, the bird will perform as intended. It is not intended to mix it up in the WWll, Smiling Jack fashion, with scarf flying in the breeze. And with today's and tomorrow's smart missiles which are capable of tracking and locking on without human assistance things will be far more mundane. And as with the F22 which flew under the Iranian F14 which had no idea he was there, what can I say? You do not want the system and that is fine. I still say, wait for the end result. If it is not what it is designed to be, I will be among the first to say I screwed the pooch. As far as specs go, I read it is a 1200 mph craft. Service ceiling is thought to be 50,000 ft but not confirmed. It is capable of short super cruise bursts, perhaps 15 min worth. That is why I feel it was an error to give this plane the F prefix. Can it absorb punishment as the A10 does, no. But then on the other hand it is not designed to loiter and provide classic ground support. That is the reason the Army developed the attack helicopter, the AH1. Of course they did that long before the F35 was a gleam in it's daddy's eye. CAS has never been the strong suit of the Air Force. If it had been they would never have dumped the Skyraider or it's type. Fast movers do not do well at ground level, never have and never will. But that is a horse of another color. So lets see what this discussion has accomplished. Nothing is the correct response. Peace, Smilin Jack.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

They also developed the AH-1 long before the A-10. The AH-1/64 are quite capable of doing CAS themselves. The Marines use the AH-1 just for that. And the Army uses the AF-64 for everything but CAS which is is quite capable of doing. I think it's a training and doctrine issue for the Army and the AF really shouldn't be that much in the picture. The Army is still trying to get fixed wing aircraft above Observation. And they are willing to bet their own troops lives in combat to get it.

 

[Manonthestreet]

189 of them should be able to do the job. As for nations without an air force, why in the world would we need Gen 5 aircraft at all. Yes I am able to read, pro as well con reports. In fact I read a report involving a Naval aviator and Air Force aviator who are 35 drivers. While they lament the software problems and delays, they present a favorable opinion of the aircraft. They feel it is up to the job that is required of it when finally the software is finalized. So honestly, I again say, when completed, the bird will perform as intended. It is not intended to mix it up in the WWll, Smiling Jack fashion, with scarf flying in the breeze. And with today's and tomorrow's smart missiles which are capable of tracking and locking on without human assistance things will be far more mundane. And as with the F22 which flew under the Iranian F14 which had no idea he was there, what can I say? You do not want the system and that is fine. I still say, wait for the end result. If it is not what it is designed to be, I will be among the first to say I screwed the pooch. As far as specs go, I read it is a 1200 mph craft. Service ceiling is thought to be 50,000 ft but not confirmed. It is capable of short super cruise bursts, perhaps 15 min worth. That is why I feel it was an error to give this plane the F prefix. Can it absorb punishment as the A10 does, no. But then on the other hand it is not designed to loiter and provide classic ground support. That is the reason the Army developed the attack helicopter, the AH1. Of course they did that long before the F35 was a gleam in it's daddy's eye. CAS has never been the strong suit of the Air Force. If it had been they would never have dumped the Skyraider or it's type. Fast movers do not do well at ground level, never have and never will. But that is a horse of another color. So lets see what this discussion has accomplished. Nothing is the correct response. Peace, Smilin Jack.

Actuallly no....AF has alrdy admitted they dont have near enough of them to babysit your piece of crap

 

[Manonthestreet]

Wont be any F-22s on carriers either to cover their ass.......you seem to believe in magic propaganda that the f-35 is all seeing while enemy planes cant see anything...........all that is needed is fly out push a button and fly back..........thats a drone........not a fighter..........unfortunately things wont be that simple...... The Russian Philosophy of Beyond Visual Range Air Combat

 

[Daryl Hunt]

189 of them should be able to do the job. As for nations without an air force, why in the world would we need Gen 5 aircraft at all. Yes I am able to read, pro as well con reports. In fact I read a report involving a Naval aviator and Air Force aviator who are 35 drivers. While they lament the software problems and delays, they present a favorable opinion of the aircraft. They feel it is up to the job that is required of it when finally the software is finalized. So honestly, I again say, when completed, the bird will perform as intended. It is not intended to mix it up in the WWll, Smiling Jack fashion, with scarf flying in the breeze. And with today's and tomorrow's smart missiles which are capable of tracking and locking on without human assistance things will be far more mundane. And as with the F22 which flew under the Iranian F14 which had no idea he was there, what can I say? You do not want the system and that is fine. I still say, wait for the end result. If it is not what it is designed to be, I will be among the first to say I screwed the pooch. As far as specs go, I read it is a 1200 mph craft. Service ceiling is thought to be 50,000 ft but not confirmed. It is capable of short super cruise bursts, perhaps 15 min worth. That is why I feel it was an error to give this plane the F prefix. Can it absorb punishment as the A10 does, no. But then on the other hand it is not designed to loiter and provide classic ground support. That is the reason the Army developed the attack helicopter, the AH1. Of course they did that long before the F35 was a gleam in it's daddy's eye. CAS has never been the strong suit of the Air Force. If it had been they would never have dumped the Skyraider or it's type. Fast movers do not do well at ground level, never have and never will. But that is a horse of another color. So lets see what this discussion has accomplished. Nothing is the correct response. Peace, Smilin Jack.

Actuallly no....AF has alrdy admitted they dont have near enough of them to babysit your piece of crap

When operating against the Chinese and Russians, the F-18 and the F-15 won't cut it close up. While the EF-18G will be in the fight from a very long range, the F-22 won't be enough to handle it. You keep forgetting that Army and Naval firepower will make a very hostile invoroment for any non stealth bird. The Naval and ground radar has to be taken out. And any of the 4th gen fighters will be committing suicide. If we can't have more F-22s then we need lots and lots of F-35 of the A and C models.

 

[I amso IR]

The C model can communicate with CIC in the battle group. Does it automatically so the F22 is not needed. With it's weapons it can engage surface vessels and the Burke can be used to support the 35's. So in reality it will be as well defended as the A model. Ain't electronics great? One little airplane has the electronic strength of the carrier battle group at it's disposal. The Russian Philosophy you say. Is it "they must be out there some where"? No, and am not interested in knowing. I will leave that folks above my pay grade. Perhaps you are one of those folks, I cannot say. But if you are you remind me of the kids in this day and age who do something illegal, post it on face book and can't understand why the get arrested. Of course the enemy can see, we would not be doing all we can to not be seen. Shucks I learned that in 1961 in Berlin when we faced down the Russians at Check Point Charlie. They would point at us and we would wave back at them so they knew we too could see. I spent five years watching them while they watched us. During my total of nine years in Germany, one in Viet Nam and two in Korea I learned a lot about the "other" guy while they learned about us. Forgive me I digress. Ivan builds some very good aircraft which is why we do our job of building better. Even the Chinese are using Ivan"s stuff. It is always easier to copy the other guys stuff. That is why we will be working against Russian and Chinese versions of the F35 in the future. But we will use it first and by that time have the new improved version capable of sustained sustained super cruise. It is a heat problem thing that needs to be ironed out.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The C model can communicate with CIC in the battle group. Does it automatically so the F22 is not needed. With it's weapons it can engage surface vessels and the Burke can be used to support the 35's. So in reality it will be as well defended as the A model. Ain't electronics great? One little airplane has the electronic strength of the carrier battle group at it's disposal. The Russian Philosophy you say. Is it "they must be out there some where"? No, and am not interested in knowing. I will leave that folks above my pay grade. Perhaps you are one of those folks, I cannot say. But if you are you remind me of the kids in this day and age who do something illegal, post it on face book and can't understand why the get arrested. Of course the enemy can see, we would not be doing all we can to not be seen. Shucks I learned that in 1961 in Berlin when we faced down the Russians at Check Point Charlie. They would point at us and we would wave back at them so they knew we too could see. I spent five years watching them while they watched us. During my total of nine years in Germany, one in Viet Nam and two in Korea I learned a lot about the "other" guy while they learned about us. Forgive me I digress. Ivan builds some very good aircraft which is why we do our job of building better. Even the Chinese are using Ivan"s stuff. It is always easier to copy the other guys stuff. That is why we will be working against Russian and Chinese versions of the F35 in the future. But we will use it first and by that time have the new improved version capable of sustained sustained super cruise. It is a heat problem thing that needs to be ironed out.

How dare you use common sense. The detractors aren't prepared for this. It might make their heads explode.

 

[I amso IR]

Enter the Eagle. In my mind, the Eagle is the air superiority fighter of choice with the F29 Russian bird right on it's heels. It has speed M2.5,range 1200 miles, ceiling 60,000+, rate of climb 60,000+ per minute, armament seemly countless variations, radar upgrades. This aircraft has nothing to be ashamed of. This aircraft has been refined, tweeked and is simply the best there is at this time. The idea that it will be a part of the USAF into 2040 justifies that claim. Not as fast as Lockheeds SR71 but then who is? That there are so many variants of this aircraft proves the versatility, strength and durability of the Eagle. The not so fighterish F35, she is pure interdiction at standoff ranges, over the horizon, and out of harms range. To claim she is a ground support machine is Tomfoolery. That however does not prove that she cannot fight nor inflict serious damage on the enemy. With her envisioned electronics package she will be wild and deadly. The F22 is stealthy, fast and deadly, but is short on numbers. Again, enter the Eagle. And in five or ten years, when Ivan is able to field a comparable aircraft to the F22, it will be to late as the F15 will have carried the day and will have earned it's wings many times over. And at this point, the USAF has over 2000 of them to use and if need be, use them they will.The Navy FA18 is also a very good aircraft but is limited in it's 300 mile range. It carries heavier combat load than the Eagle since it's mission is primarily fleet defense. It has to be able to knock out ships not buildings. It is agile and is able to take care of itself with it's missiles and nose cannon. She is a very good aircraft but is not an F 15 or MIG 29. In all fairness she was never meant to be. So here we are. The Navy and Air Force need a stand off vehicle to protect the fleet and over land airspace. That is what the F35 brings to the battle. They hook up with Fleet and Battle Group combat information center (CIC) and talk. The Air Force F35 hooks up with satellites over the battle area, ground support and ADA and AWACS flying around. Being able to see over the horizons the F35 cans take out targets prior to the targets entering the contested area. They are purely a defensive airplane and were sold as a fighter. And Smilin Jack, being who he is and what he trained for still has visions of scarfs and eye to eye contact. That day is yesterday except in very rare circumstances. The F35 is a force multiplier a tactic used by the Army for years now. The Apache, AH64, is the perfect example. Multiple warhead ICMB's are another along with cannister bombs and artillery warheads. One weapon able to kill many targets. That is why the F35 should never have been designated a fighter, though it can fight should it have to. It's premier quality is to be as unseen as possible. Surprise, an AM29 is about to fly up your rear end. 5,4,3,2,1 poof! Now "the guy on the street" can have a field day on what I have said. I will end with the line I opened with, Enter the Eagle. That bird will make the difference and keep the MIG 29 at bay. It will be one hell of a fight and the better pilot will win. From my point of view, Our Guys better be able and better than Ivan, as there is no cake walk here. Be the best or poof! Never underestimate the F15.

 

[Manonthestreet]

189 of them should be able to do the job. As for nations without an air force, why in the world would we need Gen 5 aircraft at all. Yes I am able to read, pro as well con reports. In fact I read a report involving a Naval aviator and Air Force aviator who are 35 drivers. While they lament the software problems and delays, they present a favorable opinion of the aircraft. They feel it is up to the job that is required of it when finally the software is finalized. So honestly, I again say, when completed, the bird will perform as intended. It is not intended to mix it up in the WWll, Smiling Jack fashion, with scarf flying in the breeze. And with today's and tomorrow's smart missiles which are capable of tracking and locking on without human assistance things will be far more mundane. And as with the F22 which flew under the Iranian F14 which had no idea he was there, what can I say? You do not want the system and that is fine. I still say, wait for the end result. If it is not what it is designed to be, I will be among the first to say I screwed the pooch. As far as specs go, I read it is a 1200 mph craft. Service ceiling is thought to be 50,000 ft but not confirmed. It is capable of short super cruise bursts, perhaps 15 min worth. That is why I feel it was an error to give this plane the F prefix. Can it absorb punishment as the A10 does, no. But then on the other hand it is not designed to loiter and provide classic ground support. That is the reason the Army developed the attack helicopter, the AH1. Of course they did that long before the F35 was a gleam in it's daddy's eye. CAS has never been the strong suit of the Air Force. If it had been they would never have dumped the Skyraider or it's type. Fast movers do not do well at ground level, never have and never will. But that is a horse of another color. So lets see what this discussion has accomplished. Nothing is the correct response. Peace, Smilin Jack.

Actuallly no....AF has alrdy admitted they dont have near enough of them to babysit your piece of crap

When operating against the Chinese and Russians, the F-18 and the F-15 won't cut it close up. While the EF-18G will be in the fight from a very long range, the F-22 won't be enough to handle it. You keep forgetting that Army and Naval firepower will make a very hostile invoroment for any non stealth bird. The Naval and ground radar has to be taken out. And any of the 4th gen fighters will be committing suicide. If we can't have more F-22s then we need lots and lots of F-35 of the A and C models.

F-15 simply needs to be up engined to supercruise ability......Never liked F-18...but its brilliants like you who chose it over superTomcat...a proven winner......Stealth is alrdy going way of the dodo with radar advances...F-35 has taken so long to arrive its day is over

 

[IsaacNewton]

Pentagon?s big budget F-35 fighter ?can?t turn, can?t climb, can?t run? | The Great Debate

Pentagon’s big budget F-35 fighter ‘can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run’

Is there a serious problem, or just the press hunting for a story?

Its another ridiculous unwanted unneeded aircraft that is costing 1.5 trillion dollars and will likely cost more than 2 trillion and won't perform as well as the F22.

The Military-Industrial-Complex is so awash in money they couldn't care less if any of it works, they just want to spend trillions on new shit so they can say they are spending trillions on new shit and see some new crap in a hangar somewhere.

The American people are so damn blind on this waste it is sickening.

 

[Manonthestreet]

"more than enough evidence here". Here where? On the Message Board?

Good luck with that, it is impossible to pin down ManOnTheStreet to back up anything he says about the F-35. Most of my interactions with him have been like this:

MOTS: The F-35 has too much of an IR signature to be stealthy
SM: What is the F-35's IR signature and how does it compare to other fighters
MOTS: Go read some, everyone knows
SM: Tell me then, how are you measuring the F-35s IR signature and how does it compare?
MOTS: You're ignoring the evidence!
SM: Then type out the words to tell me the numbers
MOTS: Experts have measured it!
(etc.)

15 pages of links dumbass ...go read