Excellent piece on the American Navy versus China.... Worth reading

[justoffal]

I thought this made some good sense.



Answer to How would an American carrier strike group (USS Ronald Reagan c/w support ships) fare against an attack of say 200 Chinese hypersonic anti-ship missiles? by Jay Snead How would an American carrier strike group (USS Ronald Reagan c/w support ships) fare against an attack of say 200 Chinese hypersonic ant...

ip missiles?




Jay Snead
·
Follow
retired researcher, amateur philosopherUpvoted by
Duane Frost
, former US Navy Command Master Chief at United States Navy (1974-2004) and
Wayne Rash
, former Retired Naval Officer at United States NavyDec 15

• First of all, those 200 missiles would have to survive long enough to be launched. In wartime the US will not be waiting to be attacked, it will hit those missile bases early, hard, and often with submarine cruise missiles, stealth bombers, and air-launched missiles.
• Secondly, the Chinese would have to find the carrier group to attack it. Decades of exercises have shown just how difficult it is to locate a carrier group practicing radio silence and emissions control. The US is not going to just sail up to China to be attacked. They have better ways of attacking China if they needed to. The carrier group is designed to control the oceans. They will be interdicting the sea lanes that China’s trade-based economy depends on far beyond China’s reach.
• The Chinese imagine that they can find the carriers using satellites and reconnaissance drones. Well, the cruisers and destroyers that are part of that group can shoot down satellites in orbit and the carrier aircraft will make short work of reconnaissance aircraft and drones.
• Then they would have to be able to target the carrier in an environment of heavy electric countermeasures, jamming, and spoofing. They would have to deal with chaff, flares, smoke screens, and both physical and electronic decoys. The vaunted hypersonic missiles are surrounded by a plasma field that interferes with active and passive sensors. A miss at amazingly high speed is still a miss.
• Finally the carrier group has a lot of defensive missiles of long, medium, and short range aboard those escorts and also carried by carrier aircraft. They have short range AAA and SAM defenses, as well. They can target enemy bombers, ballistic missiles, and cruise missiles of all types.
• The US can blockade China without coming anywhere close to China. Those vital shipping routes extend to Europe, Africa, and North America and guess who controls those sea lanes? Meanwhile carrier jets carrying missiles and Air Force heavy bombers carrying missiles will be attacking the Chinese navy, which will have to come out on the high seas to fight. They can’t just hide in their territorial waters and the South China Sea, which will be infested with US nuclear attack submarines.
• The Chinese talk a good naval war, but they have never actually fought one, much less won one. The US has vast experience in fighting a belligerent Asian power in the Pacific. Plus the US has powerful maritime allies with nuclear attack subs and carriers, two of whom are nuclear powers. How would an American Carrier group fare? Pretty goddamn well.

 

[Manonthestreet]

We have enough Chinese agents in this country to do serious damage. Wouldn't doubt they could shut the electricity off across the nation. Doubt China would fight the type of war we are used to

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

We have enough Chinese agents in this country to do serious damage. Wouldn't doubt they could shut the electricity off across the nation. Doubt China would fight the type of war we are used to

Turning the electricity off in Nevada will close the casinos but not impact a CVBG in any way. Nobody cares.

 

[Crepitus]

I thought this made some good sense.



Answer to How would an American carrier strike group (USS Ronald Reagan c/w support ships) fare against an attack of say 200 Chinese hypersonic anti-ship missiles? by Jay Snead How would an American carrier strike group (USS Ronald Reagan c/w support ships) fare against an attack of say 200 Chinese hypersonic ant...

ip missiles?

Jay Snead
·
Follow
retired researcher, amateur philosopherUpvoted by
Duane Frost
, former US Navy Command Master Chief at United States Navy (1974-2004) and
Wayne Rash
, former Retired Naval Officer at United States NavyDec 15

• First of all, those 200 missiles would have to survive long enough to be launched. In wartime the US will not be waiting to be attacked, it will hit those missile bases early, hard, and often with submarine cruise missiles, stealth bombers, and air-launched missiles.
• Secondly, the Chinese would have to find the carrier group to attack it. Decades of exercises have shown just how difficult it is to locate a carrier group practicing radio silence and emissions control. The US is not going to just sail up to China to be attacked. They have better ways of attacking China if they needed to. The carrier group is designed to control the oceans. They will be interdicting the sea lanes that China’s trade-based economy depends on far beyond China’s reach.
• The Chinese imagine that they can find the carriers using satellites and reconnaissance drones. Well, the cruisers and destroyers that are part of that group can shoot down satellites in orbit and the carrier aircraft will make short work of reconnaissance aircraft and drones.
• Then they would have to be able to target the carrier in an environment of heavy electric countermeasures, jamming, and spoofing. They would have to deal with chaff, flares, smoke screens, and both physical and electronic decoys. The vaunted hypersonic missiles are surrounded by a plasma field that interferes with active and passive sensors. A miss at amazingly high speed is still a miss.
• Finally the carrier group has a lot of defensive missiles of long, medium, and short range aboard those escorts and also carried by carrier aircraft. They have short range AAA and SAM defenses, as well. They can target enemy bombers, ballistic missiles, and cruise missiles of all types.
• The US can blockade China without coming anywhere close to China. Those vital shipping routes extend to Europe, Africa, and North America and guess who controls those sea lanes? Meanwhile carrier jets carrying missiles and Air Force heavy bombers carrying missiles will be attacking the Chinese navy, which will have to come out on the high seas to fight. They can’t just hide in their territorial waters and the South China Sea, which will be infested with US nuclear attack submarines.
• The Chinese talk a good naval war, but they have never actually fought one, much less won one. The US has vast experience in fighting a belligerent Asian power in the Pacific. Plus the US has powerful maritime allies with nuclear attack subs and carriers, two of whom are nuclear powers. How would an American Carrier group fare? Pretty goddamn well.

Recently read some stuff on Jane's that seems to be a bit more pessimistic.

DF-ZF hypersonics are launched from small, mobile platforms, not a stationary base.

Chinese satellite imaging is top notch and their coverage is excellent. And shooting down their sats would result in ours going down very shortly after.

They move so fast that point guidance is minimal, so point defenses like radar spoofing and chaff and such are not effective.

Same with countermissiles, they are just flat moving too quickly to be easy targets

And don't forget they can make lots and lots of them for the price of one Frigate, much less a Carrier.

Don't get overconfident.

 

[Manonthestreet]

How long would this generation tolerate privation

 

[whitehall]

Not surprising that certain left wing military orientated study tanks would worry about a Navy war with China when they didn't give a shit about the fact that the mentally impaired former president had his trembling thumb on the nuclear button. Under sanctions from the Hussein Obama administration and later the mentally impaired Biden administration the U.S. Navy couldn't fire on potential threats without some convoluted system through the Pentagon. The US military still doesn't have the option to shoot drones that are hovering over military instillations.

 

[toobfreak]

The Chinese talk a good naval war, but they have never actually fought one, much less won one.

The Chinese are full of themselves, they need put in their place. They are too used to getting their way. They think all the world are nothing but Joe Bidens and Emmanuel Macrons. They need a good ass-kicking.

 

[justoffal]

The Chinese are full of themselves, they need put in their place. They are too used to getting their way. They think all the world are nothing but Joe Bidens and Emmanuel Macrons. They need a good ass-kicking.

I talked to a friend of mine who was in the Navy for a long time. He said no matter what you hear about the Navy being in a bad condition most people have absolutely no idea what the United States Navy can actually do and they don't brag about it for a reason. He said you would not believe some of the shit That would cut loose if the United States Navy was ever completely unleashed.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

I thought this made some good sense.



Answer to How would an American carrier strike group (USS Ronald Reagan c/w support ships) fare against an attack of say 200 Chinese hypersonic anti-ship missiles? by Jay Snead How would an American carrier strike group (USS Ronald Reagan c/w support ships) fare against an attack of say 200 Chinese hypersonic ant...

ip missiles?

Jay Snead
·
Follow
retired researcher, amateur philosopherUpvoted by
Duane Frost
, former US Navy Command Master Chief at United States Navy (1974-2004) and
Wayne Rash
, former Retired Naval Officer at United States NavyDec 15

• First of all, those 200 missiles would have to survive long enough to be launched. In wartime the US will not be waiting to be attacked, it will hit those missile bases early, hard, and often with submarine cruise missiles, stealth bombers, and air-launched missiles.
• Secondly, the Chinese would have to find the carrier group to attack it. Decades of exercises have shown just how difficult it is to locate a carrier group practicing radio silence and emissions control. The US is not going to just sail up to China to be attacked. They have better ways of attacking China if they needed to. The carrier group is designed to control the oceans. They will be interdicting the sea lanes that China’s trade-based economy depends on far beyond China’s reach.
• The Chinese imagine that they can find the carriers using satellites and reconnaissance drones. Well, the cruisers and destroyers that are part of that group can shoot down satellites in orbit and the carrier aircraft will make short work of reconnaissance aircraft and drones.
• Then they would have to be able to target the carrier in an environment of heavy electric countermeasures, jamming, and spoofing. They would have to deal with chaff, flares, smoke screens, and both physical and electronic decoys. The vaunted hypersonic missiles are surrounded by a plasma field that interferes with active and passive sensors. A miss at amazingly high speed is still a miss.
• Finally the carrier group has a lot of defensive missiles of long, medium, and short range aboard those escorts and also carried by carrier aircraft. They have short range AAA and SAM defenses, as well. They can target enemy bombers, ballistic missiles, and cruise missiles of all types.
• The US can blockade China without coming anywhere close to China. Those vital shipping routes extend to Europe, Africa, and North America and guess who controls those sea lanes? Meanwhile carrier jets carrying missiles and Air Force heavy bombers carrying missiles will be attacking the Chinese navy, which will have to come out on the high seas to fight. They can’t just hide in their territorial waters and the South China Sea, which will be infested with US nuclear attack submarines.
• The Chinese talk a good naval war, but they have never actually fought one, much less won one. The US has vast experience in fighting a belligerent Asian power in the Pacific. Plus the US has powerful maritime allies with nuclear attack subs and carriers, two of whom are nuclear powers. How would an American Carrier group fare? Pretty goddamn well.

Not worried.

The U.S. Just Shot Down a Hypersonic Missile in a Show of Force

The U.S. Armed Forces are continuing to develop technologies for countering adversaries’ hypersonic missiles.

nationalinterest.org

 

[Mushroom]

Chinese satellite imaging is top notch and their coverage is excellent.

Does not matter, because it is not "real time". I know that Hollywood loves to pretend that it is, but that is far from the case. And for a carrier group, even during peace time they are going to be regularly changing course. That means every time the images are updated, they are going to have to search for it all over again.

And such information is in no way good enough to provide a target on something that is moving.

And HGVs can't target moving targets. So unless China is going to send nuclear armed ones, they are of no serious threat to a carrier fleet.

And that is one thing that scares the piss out of me. If China launches ballistic missiles at US forces, does anybody really think that the nation would not react as if it was a nuclear strike? That was the very fear that had the US and USSR sign the INF treaty in 1987. Because there is absolutely no way to determine if an inbound missile is nuclear armed or not until it detonates. And that was the largest nightmare scenario of the Cold War.

This really is a case where China really does not know what it is threatening. And even if the US decided to withhold nuclear retaliation, there are a hell of a lot of assets they could launch that are conventional.

Of course, then there is the issue with how they are going to launch 200 missiles at once. They only have around 100 DF-21 launchers. The 200 figure is the absolute "worst case" scenario. And it's not like the US is going to be sailing a carrier up and down off the Chinese coast.

 

[Donald H]

I thought this made some good sense.

It never makes sense to broadcast your discomfort level.

 

[ding]

It never makes sense to broadcast your discomfort level.

Then you have no concept of how espionage works.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Turning the electricity off in Nevada will close the casinos but not impact a CVBG in any way. Nobody cares.

Well except without electricity your economy shuts down so ya better make it damn quick

 

[Mac-7]

How would an American Carrier group fare? Pretty goddamn well.

We hope

Neither side can be completely confident about the outcome

but I think Taiwan can be defended although at great cost

 

[toobfreak]

We have enough Chinese agents in this country to do serious damage. Wouldn't doubt they could shut the electricity off across the nation. Doubt China would fight the type of war we are used to

I'm glad the Navy can defend against a hypersonic missile, but hypersonic missiles are moving at least 3-4X the speed of sound, that is several thousand MPH. Then multiply that by 200?

Add to that the USA has been letting chinese spies in to our country and universities for ages, getting trained, the Chinese have been flying balloons and drones over our military targets.

They have been sizing up our intercontinental cables carrying vital communication as to where they are and how to cut them, they are planning EMP attacks taking out all of our electronics, sabotaging our national power grid, and putting secret switches and controls into our solar panels and wind turbines and whatever else we buy off of them that they can all control remotely, among other things.

Meanwhile, our politicians in DC lead by Joe Buttpants have sat around doing nothing while planting their thumbs up their asses and taking bribes. I seriously fear that the Chinese already have their hands around our throats just waiting for a reason and excuse to cripple us when the time is right, such as, if we try to stop their takeover of Taiwan, just a few miles off their coast, which we have brilliantly given control in making all of our vital chips for us (including for our military).

When the Chinese take Taiwan, we will have effectively handed them our greatest technological secrets.

 

[Donald H]

Then you have no concept of how espionage works.

The reason why you must make an appointment to debate id to demonstrate that you are sincere and not just another stupid person.

You can do that via p.m.

 

[ding]

The reason why you must make an appointment to debate id to demonstrate that you are sincere and not just another stupid person.

You can do that via p.m.

I probably should have added you don't know how politics works either but then I realized you must because you are constantly broadcasting your discomfort level.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Well except without electricity your economy shuts down so ya better make it damn quick

Electricity can be easily restored in almost every case, especially if it was done by hacking on-line systems.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I'm glad the Navy can defend against a hypersonic missile, but hypersonic missiles are moving at least 3-4X the speed of sound, that is several thousand MPH. Then multiply that by 200?

Add to that the USA has been letting chinese spies in to our country and universities for ages, getting trained, the Chinese have been flying balloons and drones over our military targets.

They have been sizing up our intercontinental cables carrying vital communication as to where they are and how to cut them, they are planning EMP attacks taking out all of our electronics, sabotaging our national power grid, and putting secret switches and controls into our solar panels and wind turbines and whatever else we buy off of them that they can all control remotely, among other things.

Meanwhile, our politicians in DC lead by Joe Buttpants have sat around doing nothing while planting their thumbs up their asses and taking bribes. I seriously fear that the Chinese already have their hands around our throats just waiting for a reason and excuse to cripple us when the time is right, such as, if we try to stop their takeover of Taiwan, just a few miles off their coast, which we have brilliantly given control in making all of our vital chips for us (including for our military).

When the Chinese take Taiwan, we will have effectively handed them our greatest technological secrets.

You think the Chinese could launch and be able to accurately target 200 missiles at once? They have yet to demonstrate they can hit the broad side of a barn with a bass fiddle much less hit anything with a hypersonic missile. Unless they are using a nuclear warhead, missing by 100 yards is almost as good as a mile with a conventional warhead.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I'm glad the Navy can defend against a hypersonic missile, but hypersonic missiles are moving at least 3-4X the speed of sound, that is several thousand MPH. Then multiply that by 200?

Add to that the USA has been letting chinese spies in to our country and universities for ages, getting trained, the Chinese have been flying balloons and drones over our military targets.

They have been sizing up our intercontinental cables carrying vital communication as to where they are and how to cut them, they are planning EMP attacks taking out all of our electronics, sabotaging our national power grid, and putting secret switches and controls into our solar panels and wind turbines and whatever else we buy off of them that they can all control remotely, among other things.

Meanwhile, our politicians in DC lead by Joe Buttpants have sat around doing nothing while planting their thumbs up their asses and taking bribes. I seriously fear that the Chinese already have their hands around our throats just waiting for a reason and excuse to cripple us when the time is right, such as, if we try to stop their takeover of Taiwan, just a few miles off their coast, which we have brilliantly given control in making all of our vital chips for us (including for our military).

When the Chinese take Taiwan, we will have effectively handed them our greatest technological secrets.

Why would the Chinese want to take over the Us when we are their biggest customer? They want Taiwan only to settle an age-old political dispute. Why haven't the Chinese taken North Korea, or any other Asian countries? They don't want the problems inherent to it. They would not want to try and control our population any more than the other Asian countries.