Duck Dynasty's, Alan Robertson - Bible in Public School

[Meriweather]

Yes, then the conversation turned to high school electives. If it had turned to mandatory elementary school classes, my input would have been much different.

Were you speaking of mandatory classes?

 

[PratchettFan]

I would not agree it is appropriate in a public school setting to have a course which is exclusive to any religious text. That would be appropriate at the college level, but not in a public school.

Again, I disagree. Students should offer electives that are of interest to students. I should be able to take an art elective on painting without having it include computer art. Or, I should be able to take German without also having to learn Spanish. Keep in mind, I live in an area with two large high schools, which from sheer volume can offer electives that can specialize. For example, the music electives include choir, orchestra, marching band, jazz band, and guitar. Art is broken into general art, painting, ceramics, photo art, and I forget the other.

I can imagine a very small high school would have to settle for offering music or art and be glad to have both. If someone, because of background and culture, wants to learn more about the Bible in a public school setting, I don't think that student should be told, "You have to learn the Koran, too" anymore than a Spanish student should be told, "You have to learn French as well." Let students study what interests them (when it comes to electives). If you are speaking of small schools, then I agree, their electives may have to be broader in scope in order to offer anything at all.

I don't think so. Electives should be offered that will be of use to the students. If all it is is they are interested, that is the function of clubs. I am sure a class on how to get maximum scores on Grand Theft Auto would be of interest to the students. What they should be told is, if you wish to take this class you will have to learn X,Y and Z. They don't get to pick just "Y" because they are not interested in "X" and "Z". If they don't want to, it is an elective.

If you want to teach a literature class and include in it a look at passages of the Bible referenced by literature, Dante's Inferno for example, then I would have no problem with that. But if it is a course dedicated to the study of the Bible itself, it has no place in a public school.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't think so. Electives should be offered that will be of use to the students. If all it is is they are interested, that is the function of clubs. I am sure a class on how to get maximum scores on Grand Theft Auto would be of interest to the students. What they should be told is, if you wish to take this class you will have to learn X,Y and Z. They don't get to pick just "Y" because they are not interested in "X" and "Z". If they don't want to, it is an elective.

If you want to teach a literature class and include in it a look at passages of the Bible referenced by literature, Dante's Inferno for example, then I would have no problem with that. But if it is a course dedicated to the study of the Bible itself, it has no place in a public school.

Religion is an integral part of the lives of the majority--their entire life. For that reason it makes sense that it is offered in school as an elective. Many who have not used or studied higher math or history since they left school, still are focused on religion. Grand Theft Auto would be of interest to some students, but do you think it would continue to be of interest their entire life?

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

You are incorrect! I'm suggesting that a class on the Bible be made an "elective" class for anyone and everyone interested in the formation and structure of the Bible and to understand its historical significance. That's not "teaching religion" so you FAIL yet again. I also suggest that a class on Creation Science be included as an elective to give folks another perspective concerning the origins of the universe and life, itself. What are you afraid of?

You'd be cool with the Quran too?

 

[PratchettFan]

I don't think so. Electives should be offered that will be of use to the students. If all it is is they are interested, that is the function of clubs. I am sure a class on how to get maximum scores on Grand Theft Auto would be of interest to the students. What they should be told is, if you wish to take this class you will have to learn X,Y and Z. They don't get to pick just "Y" because they are not interested in "X" and "Z". If they don't want to, it is an elective.

If you want to teach a literature class and include in it a look at passages of the Bible referenced by literature, Dante's Inferno for example, then I would have no problem with that. But if it is a course dedicated to the study of the Bible itself, it has no place in a public school.

Religion is an integral part of the lives of the majority--their entire life. For that reason it makes sense that it is offered in school as an elective. Many who have not used or studied higher math or history since they left school, still are focused on religion. Grand Theft Auto would be of interest to some students, but do you think it would continue to be of interest their entire life?

Religion is an important aspect of life..... period. Even those who have no religion are impacted by it. But you see how we have now moved from teaching a religious text to teaching a religion? No... if you want to teach religion it has to be neutral. The benefit to the students is not in letting them explore what they already believe, but in garnering an understanding of what others believe. It is far more useful for a Christian to understand Islam and a Muslim to understand Christianity than for either to understand what they have already been taught. If they are not interested in that, there are Bible studies aplenty for them to attend.

 

[DriftingSand]

You are incorrect! I'm suggesting that a class on the Bible be made an "elective" class for anyone and everyone interested in the formation and structure of the Bible and to understand its historical significance. That's not "teaching religion" so you FAIL yet again. I also suggest that a class on Creation Science be included as an elective to give folks another perspective concerning the origins of the universe and life, itself. What are you afraid of?

You'd be cool with the Quran too?

Sure ... as a separate elective. I wouldn't mind taking a class on the Quran just to know what it has to say and how it came to exist and how it's effected the world. I like learning new things. You?

 

[DriftingSand]

i would very much doubt that any of the groups pushing for an elective teaching about the bible would really like anything other than their own interpretations, and thus their religion, taught.

As a teacher, I disagree. The Bible can be taught from the historical, cultural, and literary perspectives. That approach is quite fascinating--in fact I find it more fascinating than the religious perspectives. I don't find anything alarming about offering it as a high school elective.

I like your approach. You're not intimidated or frightened by a Book.

 

[Meriweather]

Religion is an important aspect of life..... period. Even those who have no religion are impacted by it. But you see how we have now moved from teaching a religious text to teaching a religion? No... if you want to teach religion it has to be neutral. The benefit to the students is not in letting them explore what they already believe, but in garnering an understanding of what others believe. It is far more useful for a Christian to understand Islam and a Muslim to understand Christianity than for either to understand what they have already been taught. If they are not interested in that, there are Bible studies aplenty for them to attend.

Here we disagree. While I agree that the Bible (or any holy book) should be taught from a historical, cultural, and literary perspective--and as an elective--I do not agree that Christians should be taught the Koran and Muslims should be taught the Bible. They should be able to delve into whatever interests them. In many (but not all) cases, the student will probably choose the book he/she is somewhat familiar with, but wishes to become more familiar. Of course, in a comparative religion class, students would learn about several faiths.

 

[Pogo]

i would very much doubt that any of the groups pushing for an elective teaching about the bible would really like anything other than their own interpretations, and thus their religion, taught.

As a teacher, I disagree. The Bible can be taught from the historical, cultural, and literary perspectives. That approach is quite fascinating--in fact I find it more fascinating than the religious perspectives. I don't find anything alarming about offering it as a high school elective.

I like your approach. You're not intimidated or frightened by a Book.

Why is "book" capitalized?

 

[Pogo]

You are incorrect! I'm suggesting that a class on the Bible be made an "elective" class for anyone and everyone interested in the formation and structure of the Bible and to understand its historical significance. That's not "teaching religion" so you FAIL yet again. I also suggest that a class on Creation Science be included as an elective to give folks another perspective concerning the origins of the universe and life, itself. What are you afraid of?

You'd be cool with the Quran too?

If you read the political forum on this site any day of the year it's obvious that an understanding of the Qu'ran is sorely needed...

 

[Pogo]

Religion is an important aspect of life..... period. Even those who have no religion are impacted by it. But you see how we have now moved from teaching a religious text to teaching a religion? No... if you want to teach religion it has to be neutral. The benefit to the students is not in letting them explore what they already believe, but in garnering an understanding of what others believe. It is far more useful for a Christian to understand Islam and a Muslim to understand Christianity than for either to understand what they have already been taught. If they are not interested in that, there are Bible studies aplenty for them to attend.

Here we disagree. While I agree that the Bible (or any holy book) should be taught from a historical, cultural, and literary perspective--and as an elective--I do not agree that Christians should be taught the Koran and Muslims should be taught the Bible. They should be able to delve into whatever interests them. In many (but not all) cases, the student will probably choose the book he/she is somewhat familiar with, but wishes to become more familiar. Of course, in a comparative religion class, students would learn about several faiths.

Exactly, and that would be a good thing.
Which is why I find it bizarre that you would advocate taking them singly, i.e. out of their context.

 

[mdk]

Electives classes on the Bible are being taught all throughout the country every Sunday and as a bonus at no cost to the state.

 

[Meriweather]

Exactly, and that would be a good thing.
Which is why I find it bizarre that you would advocate taking them singly, i.e. out of their context.

Not bizarre at all. They are two approaches, and actually two different topics. One is to study all religion together. One is an in depth study of the Bible--or any other holy book--from a historical, cultural, and literary perspective.

I think what I am sensing (in general, not from a specific person) is fear that offering such a class on the Bible is a really a cover for teaching a specific religious doctrine.

 

[ogibillm]

Exactly, and that would be a good thing.
Which is why I find it bizarre that you would advocate taking them singly, i.e. out of their context.

Not bizarre at all. They are two approaches, and actually two different topics. One is to study all religion together. One is an in depth study of the Bible--or any other holy book--from a historical, cultural, and literary perspective.

I think what I am sensing (in general, not from a specific person) is fear that offering such a class on the Bible is a really a cover for teaching a specific religious doctrine.

for me the potential for abuse (i.e. becoming an indoctrination class) far outweighs the benefits of a well taught class

 

[PratchettFan]

Religion is an important aspect of life..... period. Even those who have no religion are impacted by it. But you see how we have now moved from teaching a religious text to teaching a religion? No... if you want to teach religion it has to be neutral. The benefit to the students is not in letting them explore what they already believe, but in garnering an understanding of what others believe. It is far more useful for a Christian to understand Islam and a Muslim to understand Christianity than for either to understand what they have already been taught. If they are not interested in that, there are Bible studies aplenty for them to attend.

Here we disagree. While I agree that the Bible (or any holy book) should be taught from a historical, cultural, and literary perspective--and as an elective--I do not agree that Christians should be taught the Koran and Muslims should be taught the Bible. They should be able to delve into whatever interests them. In many (but not all) cases, the student will probably choose the book he/she is somewhat familiar with, but wishes to become more familiar. Of course, in a comparative religion class, students would learn about several faiths.

We do disagree. If you are going to teach religion at all in a public school setting it should be to inform about all religion, not just one. As I said, if you wish to reference the Bible as it relates to literature or history, that is fine. It does relate. But as it's own subject, that is crossing the line. If a student wants to take a Bible class, there are a huge number of churches out there which will be happy to oblige.

 

[PratchettFan]

You are incorrect! I'm suggesting that a class on the Bible be made an "elective" class for anyone and everyone interested in the formation and structure of the Bible and to understand its historical significance. That's not "teaching religion" so you FAIL yet again. I also suggest that a class on Creation Science be included as an elective to give folks another perspective concerning the origins of the universe and life, itself. What are you afraid of?

You'd be cool with the Quran too?

If you read the political forum on this site any day of the year it's obvious that an understanding of the Qu'ran is sorely needed...

It certainly is.

 

[Meriweather]

for me the potential for abuse (i.e. becoming an indoctrination class) far outweighs the benefits of a well taught class

While I cannot say for sure how every school district acts, the ones I have worked for set the guidelines and curriculum, as well as approve the teaching materials. They hire the teachers. Further, it is pretty difficult to brainwash a high school student as they tend to want to think for themselves.

Finally, one of my daughters, while in high school, had a Wiccan English teacher. This teacher was a fine English teacher, but she was also throwing in Wiccan doctrine whenever she could. So what? My daughter had her beliefs and we had many interesting dinner conversations of why we believe as we do--and why she probably believes as she does. I cannot imagine panicking over a high school student being taught/exposed to Wiccan doctrine. High school students do not live in a vacuum--and for the most part they also have good heads on their shoulders.

I think the greater majority of school districts and teachers would do well with presenting the material. Of course, we would never hear about them, as the news media is more interested in finding the few that will mess up. Besides, I have doubts that there is enough student interest to support such electives in many places. All I am saying is where there is such interest, have at it.

 

[PratchettFan]

for me the potential for abuse (i.e. becoming an indoctrination class) far outweighs the benefits of a well taught class

While I cannot say for sure how every school district acts, the ones I have worked for set the guidelines and curriculum, as well as approve the teaching materials. They hire the teachers. Further, it is pretty difficult to brainwash a high school student as they tend to want to think for themselves.

Finally, one of my daughters, while in high school, had a Wiccan English teacher. This teacher was a fine English teacher, but she was also throwing in Wiccan doctrine whenever she could. So what? My daughter had her beliefs and we had many interesting dinner conversations of why we believe as we do--and why she probably believes as she does. I cannot imagine panicking over a high school student being taught/exposed to Wiccan doctrine. High school students do not live in a vacuum--and for the most part they also have good heads on their shoulders.

I think the greater majority of school districts and teachers would do well with presenting the material. Of course, we would never hear about them, as the news media is more interested in finding the few that will mess up. Besides, I have doubts that there is enough student interest to support such electives in many places. All I am saying is where there is such interest, have at it.

I am a risk manager and I deal with a large school district. I can tell you from experience that if a class as you propose was placed in the curriculum, we would find ourselves in litigation over it. Win or lose, the money I had to spend for litigation would be money not going into the classroom. There is one school district I know of which dealt with litigation because they were teaching yoga in gym, and a parent saw that as religious indoctrination. If you skirt the line of legality you are going to end up in court and that takes both time and money away from the students.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

You are incorrect! I'm suggesting that a class on the Bible be made an "elective" class for anyone and everyone interested in the formation and structure of the Bible and to understand its historical significance. That's not "teaching religion" so you FAIL yet again. I also suggest that a class on Creation Science be included as an elective to give folks another perspective concerning the origins of the universe and life, itself. What are you afraid of?

You'd be cool with the Quran too?

Sure ... as a separate elective.

I doubt Robertson would be

 

[Avatar4321]

Damn that pesky Constitution, huh?

the constitution has nothing to do with it. studying the bible does not establish a church.

you'd think the self proclaimed rational people would realize this