Dresden: Nazi Zombies don´t walk the line

[whitehall]

The sacrifice of the United States in two world wars in the 20th century probably saved the DNA of every "hate-America'" radical on the forum but they still hate us. Go figure.

More ridiculous hyperbole.

American financial interests did very well out of both World Wars, thank you -- and they have been making out like bandits ever since.

Of course, the brainless proles in America didn't do so well out of America's military banditry.

But as O'Brien remarked in Orwell's 1984, "The proles are not people."
.

Say what? Are you saying that Woodie Wilson and FDR did it for the money?

 

[Harry Dresden]

While there is no day, the death toll murdered by "Nazi Germany" doesn´t increase, more and more German victims didn´t die. As undead Nazi Zombies thounsands upon thousands scroll through Dresden and elsewhere and they become more every year.

By a German authority in 1992 the German police counted 202.040 dead bodies in Dresden on 03.20.1945. Mostly children and women. Including missed people the estimations of the Police amount about 250.00 - 300.000 victims in Dresden.

Dresden: Nazi Zombies don´t walk the line

i am being framed i tell ya..... did not say that.... ....

 

[Toronado3800]

'
I think Bleipriester's original point was that the terror bombing of defenseless German civililans by England and America was as vile as anything the Nazis did in a similar vein. I agree with him. I especially deplore the cultural destruction.

And it wasn't just in Dresden -- it happened all over Germany.

A German friend from that era remarked in exasperation, "I was a victim of the Nazis, too!"

I certainly don't want to romanticise the Nazi period. Both the people and the rulers acted disgracefully, and brought shame on Germany that will last a long time.

In justice, I would say that the American people and rulers have brought similar shame on the USA since the Second World War -- and seem to be getting worse all the time.

Of course, if you look at American history, the Americans are more used to acting disgracefully than the Germans are, and it doesn't seem to bother the Americans as much.
.

Our own history with manifest genocide is noted and a valid point to bring up.

I just don't know, twice in 25 years. That would be 1988 and 2013.

Dresden....I dunno. Fog of war and all, victory should have been pretty certain by early 45 but you never knew when their atomic program would pay off. It was a big fairly well off industrial city..... Any reports of an uprising or ANYTHING which would make me not think of these folks as ppl who donated their sons and husbands to fight the Russians and us? Anything?

Now on the way back into Germany as the Supreme Allied Commander, what would your plan has been or what would you have done differently?

 

[Toronado3800]

Yes, a couple times a couple Germans did try to assassinate Hitler.

Man, if I was president in 45 for the sake of German citizens I hope you would have had my ear. Keep talking. Do you think just scattering the whole population of the country around the world would have been immoral? Imagine being President or someone who fought in WWI and then saw your son fight in WWII. I absolutely could not take the chance of getting slapped a third time by the Germans.

Man, nuking Germany, definitely immoral in August of 45 as ONE innocent human was bound to be killed.

Stopping at the Rhine....I dunno. They invaded the U.S.S.R. so what the Germans got out of it they deserved. But Stalin was a monster also.

Fine fine, we can scatter them to and fro across the planet. Darn U.S. at the time was soo racist I doubt we could have stood many but fine, we'll take 10 million of them and just not give the first generation the right to vote.

That isn´t about Hitler. Hitler wasn´t Germany.

Once I had a history book with a WWII timeline. According to the book, Stalin offered Hitler a peace treaty before the Red Army entered German territory. Hitler rejected this offer in a fit of rage and ordered the final victory. So he was definitely not wise and a good leader or simply not right in his senses anymore.

Here is some interesting suff about rare Hitler recordings showing really another Hitler from the one we know from his speeches. Documentation by N24, German tv network:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxYOVLj-TJM]Das Hitler Tonband [HD] - YouTube[/ame]

Oh, fine then. It is about Germany. A peaceful people who fell hook line and sinker into a decade of racial hate and murder leading to a second global war in a generation?

Hey, how many soldiers of the 2nd SS defected to the Allies after that failed run on the Meuse?

The 116th Panzer? I'm sure they could have just surrendered in the pocket and no one could have done squat about it.

The 363rd Volksgrenadier?

These are all units which could have surrendered to the Americans. (no one could be expected to surrender to the Russians)

Imagine how much better off even Germany would have been if the Western Front collapsed in 1944.

The Germans fought one heck of a defensive war. Ey, did any German city have a counter culture movement like American cities did during Vietnam? Throw me a bone.

 

[Bleipriester]

Yes, a couple times a couple Germans did try to assassinate Hitler.

Man, if I was president in 45 for the sake of German citizens I hope you would have had my ear. Keep talking. Do you think just scattering the whole population of the country around the world would have been immoral? Imagine being President or someone who fought in WWI and then saw your son fight in WWII. I absolutely could not take the chance of getting slapped a third time by the Germans.

Man, nuking Germany, definitely immoral in August of 45 as ONE innocent human was bound to be killed.

Stopping at the Rhine....I dunno. They invaded the U.S.S.R. so what the Germans got out of it they deserved. But Stalin was a monster also.

Fine fine, we can scatter them to and fro across the planet. Darn U.S. at the time was soo racist I doubt we could have stood many but fine, we'll take 10 million of them and just not give the first generation the right to vote.

That isn´t about Hitler. Hitler wasn´t Germany.

Once I had a history book with a WWII timeline. According to the book, Stalin offered Hitler a peace treaty before the Red Army entered German territory. Hitler rejected this offer in a fit of rage and ordered the final victory. So he was definitely not wise and a good leader or simply not right in his senses anymore.

Here is some interesting suff about rare Hitler recordings showing really another Hitler from the one we know from his speeches. Documentation by N24, German tv network:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxYOVLj-TJM]Das Hitler Tonband [HD] - YouTube[/ame]

Oh, fine then. It is about Germany. A peaceful people who fell hook line and sinker into a decade of racial hate and murder leading to a second global war in a generation?

Hey, how many soldiers of the 2nd SS defected to the Allies after that failed run on the Meuse?

The 116th Panzer? I'm sure they could have just surrendered in the pocket and no one could have done squat about it.

The 363rd Volksgrenadier?

These are all units which could have surrendered to the Americans. (no one could be expected to surrender to the Russians)

Imagine how much better off even Germany would have been if the Western Front collapsed in 1944.

The Germans fought one heck of a defensive war. Ey, did any German city have a counter culture movement like American cities did during Vietnam? Throw me a bone.

Could have, would have...
Imagine if Hitler would have acceptet Stalin´s peace offer and the Wehrmacht would have driven the Allies away from europe witihn weeks. Or imagine Stauffenberg would have killed Hitler and with the Allies the Germans would have defeated the Soviets. Or simply Imagine, France and Great Britain would not have declared war on Germany, but on Russia, when it invaded Poland...

And Germans ain´t peaceful? How many wars have been started by Germany, how many by France, Breat Britain and the US?

 

[Bleipriester]

Dresden: Nazi Zombies don´t walk the line

i am being framed i tell ya..... did not say that.... ....

Hi, guy.
Your nickname is suggesting that you are also not in agreement with 25.000.

 

[Toronado3800]

That isn´t about Hitler. Hitler wasn´t Germany.

Once I had a history book with a WWII timeline. According to the book, Stalin offered Hitler a peace treaty before the Red Army entered German territory. Hitler rejected this offer in a fit of rage and ordered the final victory. So he was definitely not wise and a good leader or simply not right in his senses anymore.

Here is some interesting suff about rare Hitler recordings showing really another Hitler from the one we know from his speeches. Documentation by N24, German tv network:
Das Hitler Tonband [HD] - YouTube

Oh, fine then. It is about Germany. A peaceful people who fell hook line and sinker into a decade of racial hate and murder leading to a second global war in a generation?

Hey, how many soldiers of the 2nd SS defected to the Allies after that failed run on the Meuse?

The 116th Panzer? I'm sure they could have just surrendered in the pocket and no one could have done squat about it.

The 363rd Volksgrenadier?

These are all units which could have surrendered to the Americans. (no one could be expected to surrender to the Russians)

Imagine how much better off even Germany would have been if the Western Front collapsed in 1944.

The Germans fought one heck of a defensive war. Ey, did any German city have a counter culture movement like American cities did during Vietnam? Throw me a bone.

Could have, would have...
Imagine if Hitler would have acceptet Stalin´s peace offer and the Wehrmacht would have driven the Allies away from europe witihn weeks. Or imagine Stauffenberg would have killed Hitler and with the Allies the Germans would have defeated the Soviets. Or simply Imagine, France and Great Britain would not have declared war on Germany, but on Russia, when it invaded Poland...

And Germans ain´t peaceful? How many wars have been started by Germany, how many by France, Breat Britain and the US?

What kind of historical period are we talking?

Now I will admit the place was pretty peaceful between oh June of 45 and say the next 50 years.

And you're kidding me. There has to be ONE town or mini city which helped throw out the NAZI's as the U.S. and British approached.

 

[numan]

'
"THE PAST IS A FOREIGN COUNTRY; THEY DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY THERE."

You can't make direct, one-to-one comparisons with Nazi Germany and the USA, even though in many ways they are similar.

During the war, people had surprising freedom to grumble (how could you stop it? Germans are notorious grumblers!), more freedom to grumble than Americans had in the 1950's to grumble about capitalism -- I lived through that period, and the thought-control and brainwashing against even socialism (let alone the devil-fanged Commies!) was intense.

However, opposing the Reich, even in modest fashion, would quickly lead to being shot, hung or guillotined. And you are naive enough to imagine a Vietnam War style protest movement in a totalitarian Germany where most people were fooled into believing that they were fighting for their national, or even "racial" existence? Too absurd !!

It ill becomes Americans, living in a country which has the most intense and sophisticated brainwashing which the world has ever seen, to criticize the brainwashed Reich Germans -- especially since they were the first people to suffer really modern methods of brainwashing, and of course had little or no resistence to the disease.
.

 

[Bleipriester]

What kind of historical period are we talking?

Now I will admit the place was pretty peaceful between oh June of 45 and say the next 50 years.

And you're kidding me. There has to be ONE town or mini city which helped throw out the NAZI's as the U.S. and British approached.

When the Allies didn´t give a shit about French cities and bombed them right down, the population didn´t know which side was there to liberate them...

 

[numan]

When the Allies didn´t give a shit about French cities and bombed them right down, the population didn´t know which side was there to liberate them...

Shush!! That's getting too near the truth!! And truth is treason in our modern world of lies !!
.

 

[Toronado3800]

When the Allies didn´t give a shit about French cities and bombed them right down, the population didn´t know which side was there to liberate them...

Shush!! That's getting too near the truth!! And truth is treason in our modern world of lies !!
.

Now that is stretching it pretty far. Guess the Soviets firing upon houses and factories in Stalingrad should not have done so.

Quick, don't bomb that French railyard the NAZI's are using to move them STUGs! lol.

The right points for you two to be making in this case pertain to Dresden not being much of a military target. You have had this conversation or thought line before I assume?

 

[whitehall]

When FDR was in pretty bad shape and the democrat party forced him to run for a 4th term they dumped the sitting V.P. who was a pretty smart guy and picked a dumb assed former clothing store owner who didn't even have a college degree. The US Military was running the war and Harry Truman was along for the ride. Unelected generals were making the decisions and Dresden was part of it. Truman also signed off on the A-bomb attack on Japan.

 

[ThirdTerm]

For more than 60 years Britain's Bomber Command led by Arthur 'Bomber' Harris has been vilified for causing up to 500,000 deaths in the carpet bombing of Dresden during World War II. But now, after a four-year investigation, a panel of German historians has said that the true number of dead from the Allied air raids in January 1945 was between 18,000 and 25,000. They reached the figure after combing through death certificates, hitherto sealed eyewitness reports, registration cards for people made homeless and hospital records. It now emerges that the high number of deaths from 'Operation Thunderclap' was a myth invented by the Nazis, perpetuated by Communists and re-born in the past decade to serve the aims of ultra-nationalists. The myth took form barely after the vapour trails of the bombers disappeared in the skies over the city.

WW2 Dresden bombing killed far fewer people than half a million, new records show | Mail Online

 

[germanguy]

Howe many people have dies in Dresden will always be uncertain.
The city was packed with refugees in winter 1945 and therefore nobody could be sure how many people were in the city when it was attacked.
So, as this is uncertain, the total death toll is uncertain as well.

Personally, I think the number of 25 - 30000 is close to the corrsct number.
To kill 500.000 people from the Air is quite difficult. Other cities (Operation Gomorrha = the attack on Hamburg) had after similar attacks up to 40000 casualties, so I think the number is close enough.

Whoever raises this subject has a purpose. What Bleiproester drives, I do not know or care.
In general the death toll is not relevant in a debate, at least not the number of dead.
The purpose of the attacks is relevant.

Germany was fighting for a future in which the aryan race, led by the germans, would dominate the world.
The Allies were fighting for a world, in which the ideals of the French Revolution, freedom, equality and brotherhood would prevail.

That both were ideals and to some extent lip service or propaganda, I certainly know.
But never forget, that people in the occupied areas were hoping for the Allies to land in Europe or to break through the Eastern Front, and not vice versa.

That people in Britain felt more and more uneasy during the war about the raids of Bomber Command is also something which has not to be forgotten. In General there might not have been open resictance against it, but the longer the war lasted, it was clear, that Bomber Command did something which was not something to be very proud of.

After 60 years I can only say, that I am glad and touched, that people from Coventry and Dresden mourn their dead together and that the Cross on the top of the rebuild Frauenkirche in Dresden was made in Great Britain.

Remember and Reconciliate

From the Frauenkirche Website:
A new, shiny spire cross is now perched on top of the Frauenkirche dome. In a special way, it embodies the power of reconciliation. Sponsored by the people of Great Britain and their royal family and crafted by the son of one of the pilots who bombarded Dresden at the end of the war, it now proclaims the Frauenkirche’s own special message – build bridges – live reconciliation – bolster belief. On the occasion of the 55th anniversary of Dresden’s destruction on 13th February 2000, His Royal Highness The Duke of Kent, in his function as patron of the Dresden Trust, handed over the finished cross to the Frauenkirche. Up until the time the dome was completed, the cross stood outside the west façade of the Frauenkirche, before being hoisted up to its proper, precarious location together with the lantern and lantern cover on 22nd June 2004.

 

[Bleipriester]

What Bleiproester drives, I do not know or care.

Maybe it´s the offical letter shown in the OP

In general the death toll is not relevant in a debate, at least not the number of dead.
The purpose of the attacks is relevant.

The purpose of the attack was to kill as many people as possible in order to break their will to resist what you call "freedom, equality and brotherhood".

Germany was fighting for a future in which the aryan race, led by the germans, would dominate the world.
The Allies were fighting for a world, in which the ideals of the French Revolution, freedom, equality and brotherhood would prevail.

Can I have your glasses to see those values prevail?

But never forget, that people in the occupied areas were hoping for the Allies to land in Europe or to break through the Eastern Front, and not vice versa.

An estimated 325,000 non-ethnic German volunteers and conscripts served in the Waffen-SS:

Albania: 9000 in the 21st SS Division
Armenia : 2000
Belgium: 12,000 Flemish in the 5th SS Div., 27th SS Div.
Belgium: 15,000 Walloons 5th SS Div., 28th SS Div.
British Commonwealth: never more than 100 in the British Free Corps
Bulgaria: 700 in the Bulgarisches Reg.
Croatia (includes Bosnian Muslims): 20,000 in the 7th SS Div., 13th SS Handschar Div., 23rd SS Div.
Denmark: 8,000 in Frikorps Danmark, 11th SS Div.
Estonia: 30,000 in the 20th SS Div.
Finland: 1,500 in a Volunteer Battalion.
France: 9,000 in the 33rd SS Div.
Georgia: 2,000 to 3,000 in the SS-Waffengruppe Georgien
Hungary: 40,000 in the 25th SS Div., 26th SS Div. and 33rd SS Div.
India: 2,500 in the Indisches Freiwilligen Infanterie Regiment 950 or "Tiger Legion"
Italy: 15,000 in the 29th SS Div. and the Italienische Freiwilligan Legion
Latvia: 60,000 in the Latvian Legion.
Netherlands: 25,000 in the 23rd SS Div., 34th SS Div.
North Caucasus : 1,000 to 2,000
Norway: 6,000 in the 5th SS Div., 6th SS Div., 11th SS Div.
Russian (& Belarusian): 15,000 29th SS Div., 30th SS Div.
Russian (Cossack): 20,000 in the 1st Cossack Div.
Russian (Turkic): 10,000 in Osttürkische SS, Tatarische SS
Romania: 6,000 in Waffen-Grenadierregiment der SS (1st Romanian)
Serbia: 8,000 in Volunteer Corps
Spain: 3,000 in Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101 and SS 102.
Sweden: 300-500,
Switzerland: 800
Luxemburg: some dozens
Ukraine: 20,000 in the 14th SS Div.
Waffen-SS foreign volunteers and conscripts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

During WWII, nearly 2,000,000 foreigners served within the German fighting forces, many as willing volunteers, others through varying degrees of conscription. The reasons these volunteers joined the German Wehrmacht were varied, but a simple look at the numbers begins to tell the story - in the East alone nearly 1,000,000 men volunteered for service with Germany. This number is a direct result of the situation millions faced under the brutal rule of the Soviet Empire.
http://www.feldgrau.com/foreign.html

 

[Toronado3800]

What Bleiproester drives, I do not know or care.

Maybe it´s the offical letter shown in the OP

In general the death toll is not relevant in a debate, at least not the number of dead.
The purpose of the attacks is relevant.

The purpose of the attack was to kill as many people as possible in order to break their will to resist what you call "freedom, equality and brotherhood".



Can I have your glasses to see those values prevail?

But never forget, that people in the occupied areas were hoping for the Allies to land in Europe or to break through the Eastern Front, and not vice versa.

An estimated 325,000 non-ethnic German volunteers and conscripts served in the Waffen-SS:

Albania: 9000 in the 21st SS Division
Armenia : 2000
Belgium: 12,000 Flemish in the 5th SS Div., 27th SS Div.
Belgium: 15,000 Walloons 5th SS Div., 28th SS Div.
British Commonwealth: never more than 100 in the British Free Corps
Bulgaria: 700 in the Bulgarisches Reg.
Croatia (includes Bosnian Muslims): 20,000 in the 7th SS Div., 13th SS Handschar Div., 23rd SS Div.
Denmark: 8,000 in Frikorps Danmark, 11th SS Div.
Estonia: 30,000 in the 20th SS Div.
Finland: 1,500 in a Volunteer Battalion.
France: 9,000 in the 33rd SS Div.
Georgia: 2,000 to 3,000 in the SS-Waffengruppe Georgien
Hungary: 40,000 in the 25th SS Div., 26th SS Div. and 33rd SS Div.
India: 2,500 in the Indisches Freiwilligen Infanterie Regiment 950 or "Tiger Legion"
Italy: 15,000 in the 29th SS Div. and the Italienische Freiwilligan Legion
Latvia: 60,000 in the Latvian Legion.
Netherlands: 25,000 in the 23rd SS Div., 34th SS Div.
North Caucasus : 1,000 to 2,000
Norway: 6,000 in the 5th SS Div., 6th SS Div., 11th SS Div.
Russian (& Belarusian): 15,000 29th SS Div., 30th SS Div.
Russian (Cossack): 20,000 in the 1st Cossack Div.
Russian (Turkic): 10,000 in Osttürkische SS, Tatarische SS
Romania: 6,000 in Waffen-Grenadierregiment der SS (1st Romanian)
Serbia: 8,000 in Volunteer Corps
Spain: 3,000 in Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101 and SS 102.
Sweden: 300-500,
Switzerland: 800
Luxemburg: some dozens
Ukraine: 20,000 in the 14th SS Div.
Waffen-SS foreign volunteers and conscripts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

During WWII, nearly 2,000,000 foreigners served within the German fighting forces, many as willing volunteers, others through varying degrees of conscription. The reasons these volunteers joined the German Wehrmacht were varied, but a simple look at the numbers begins to tell the story - in the East alone nearly 1,000,000 men volunteered for service with Germany. This number is a direct result of the situation millions faced under the brutal rule of the Soviet Empire.
Foreign Volunteers in the German Wehrmacht in WWII

What do you think Germany was fighting for?

Oh yeah, and folks here bought German bonds. Proving foreigners joined the Taliban or the NAZIs is interesting but I do not understand its relavance.....But yes, some Russians did wanna fight against Stalin.

 

[Bleipriester]

What do you think Germany was fighting for?.

This is a very stupid question! For what were France and GB fighting for when they declared war on Germany? For what did Stalin need such a huge army? And why did Americans fire at Germans without declaration of war?
The German-Polish war in 1939 was a matter between Germany and Poland. Hitler did not expect France and England would react, when diplomatic measures were exhausted. It was about how Germans were treated in Poland and other things.

Get the message:

News has been received that Germany has proposed a settlement with Britain over Poland consisting of 16 points. Included are proposals for the city of Danzig (Gdansk) to be returned to the Reich and for a plebiscite on territorial issues to take place. Due to an apparent lack of response by Britain in the two days since these proposals were announced, the Fuhrer believes that they have been rejected.
BBC - Archive - WWII: Outbreak - News | Polish Question: 16 Points

Read the 16 points, rejected by Poland:

1.
The city Danzig goes back to Germany

2.
The people of the territory from the Eastsea and the Marienwerder-Graudenz-Kulm-Bromberg line makes up their mind to which Nation they want to belong in an election

3.
This election will be controlled by a commision of Italy, USSR, France and England

4.
This election will not include the habour Gdingen, that will be polish

5.
To get a well prepared election, it will not take place within 12 month

6.
To garantee the German connection to Ostpreußen and the polish conection to the sea during this time, ways will be set for roads and railways

7.
A simple majority will bring it to an issue

8.
If the territories will be Polish, Germany gets the right to build a Reichsautobahn and a 4-track railway to Ostpreußen in a corridor that is 1 km wide. If the territories goes to Germany, the Polish have the same right to build a connection to Gdingen.

9.
If the territory will be German, Germany is poised for a population exchange with Poland

10.
The Polish claims in Danzig will be broked like the German claims in Gdingen

11.
For not to bring an environment of threats, Danzig and Gdingen will be demilitarized

12.
The peninsule Heia, that will be involveld in the elections, too, will also be demilitarized

13.
Discomforts about discrimination of minorities on both sides will be broked by an international commission

14.
German and polish foreigners have not perform the compulsory military service

15.
If this Plan will be accepted, both countries will perform the de-mobilization of their armies

16.
For the acceleration of this agreements, German and Poland will hear this case

And get the message:

During negotiations in Moscow during August 1939, Rydz refused all attempts by the Western Powers to obtain Polish permission for the Red Army to march westward, stating: "there is no guarantee that the Soviets will really take active part in the war; furthermore, once having entered Polish territory, they will never leave it".
Edward Rydz-?mig?y - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh yeah, and folks here bought German bonds..

How about Greek bonds? I heard they have great interest

Proving foreigners joined the Taliban or the NAZIs is interesting but I do not understand its relavance.....But yes, some Russians did wanna fight against Stalin.

Talking about "joining the Nazis" makes clear you truly don´t understand.
Two million Europeans, "some Russians" to tell it in your words, saw it was the best for their own countries to fight with the Germans. 2 millions! Refering to Germanguy´s assertion the 2 million foreigners fighting for Germany were only the tip of the iceberg of those who wouldn´t have even dreamed about opposing the Germans or wished them to be defeated by Stalin and his allies in europe...

 

[numan]

How many people died in Dresden will always be uncertain.
The city was packed with refugees in winter 1945 and therefore nobody could be sure how many people were in the city when it was attacked.
So, as this is uncertain, the total death toll is uncertain as well.

Personally, I think the number of 25 - 30000 is close to the correct number.

I have seen the films of the burning city which the Allies took from the air on those terrible nights. I have read what fire storms are like in a burning city. I find it hard to believe that only 30,000 people died in Dresden -- especially as the city was packed with refugees, prisoners of war and other undocumented people.

Germany was fighting for a future in which the aryan race, led by the germans, would dominate the world.
The Allies were fighting for a world, in which the ideals of the French Revolution, freedom, equality and brotherhood would prevail.

Sorry, this is nonsense up with which I will not put.
After the War, the victors, especially the Soviets and Americans, simply took stock of the efficient methods of the Germans, improved on them, and took off from where the Germans ended, and have terrorized and brutalised the world right up to the present time. Sure, the methods are more efficient, modern, clever and often more hidden, but we all have lived in totalitarian societies ever since the War.

If the Nazis had won the War, they would have done terrible things -- terrible things different from the terrible things the Soviets and Americans have done -- but sixty and seventy years on, I don't think the world would look very different from the way it looks today. Modern brainwashing techniques mean that a compliant society can be created without the necessity of terror.

That both were ideals and to some extent lip service or propaganda, I certainly know.

My opinion is that that you need to think about that and know it better.
.

 

[germanguy]

What Bleiproester drives, I do not know or care.

Maybe it´s the offical letter shown in the OP

In general the death toll is not relevant in a debate, at least not the number of dead.
The purpose of the attacks is relevant.

The purpose of the attack was to kill as many people as possible in order to break their will to resist what you call "freedom, equality and brotherhood".



Can I have your glasses to see those values prevail?

But never forget, that people in the occupied areas were hoping for the Allies to land in Europe or to break through the Eastern Front, and not vice versa.

An estimated 325,000 non-ethnic German volunteers and conscripts served in the Waffen-SS:

Albania: 9000 in the 21st SS Division
Armenia : 2000
Belgium: 12,000 Flemish in the 5th SS Div., 27th SS Div.
Belgium: 15,000 Walloons 5th SS Div., 28th SS Div.
British Commonwealth: never more than 100 in the British Free Corps
Bulgaria: 700 in the Bulgarisches Reg.
Croatia (includes Bosnian Muslims): 20,000 in the 7th SS Div., 13th SS Handschar Div., 23rd SS Div.
Denmark: 8,000 in Frikorps Danmark, 11th SS Div.
Estonia: 30,000 in the 20th SS Div.
Finland: 1,500 in a Volunteer Battalion.
France: 9,000 in the 33rd SS Div.
Georgia: 2,000 to 3,000 in the SS-Waffengruppe Georgien
Hungary: 40,000 in the 25th SS Div., 26th SS Div. and 33rd SS Div.
India: 2,500 in the Indisches Freiwilligen Infanterie Regiment 950 or "Tiger Legion"
Italy: 15,000 in the 29th SS Div. and the Italienische Freiwilligan Legion
Latvia: 60,000 in the Latvian Legion.
Netherlands: 25,000 in the 23rd SS Div., 34th SS Div.
North Caucasus : 1,000 to 2,000
Norway: 6,000 in the 5th SS Div., 6th SS Div., 11th SS Div.
Russian (& Belarusian): 15,000 29th SS Div., 30th SS Div.
Russian (Cossack): 20,000 in the 1st Cossack Div.
Russian (Turkic): 10,000 in Osttürkische SS, Tatarische SS
Romania: 6,000 in Waffen-Grenadierregiment der SS (1st Romanian)
Serbia: 8,000 in Volunteer Corps
Spain: 3,000 in Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101 and SS 102.
Sweden: 300-500,
Switzerland: 800
Luxemburg: some dozens
Ukraine: 20,000 in the 14th SS Div.
Waffen-SS foreign volunteers and conscripts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

During WWII, nearly 2,000,000 foreigners served within the German fighting forces, many as willing volunteers, others through varying degrees of conscription. The reasons these volunteers joined the German Wehrmacht were varied, but a simple look at the numbers begins to tell the story - in the East alone nearly 1,000,000 men volunteered for service with Germany. This number is a direct result of the situation millions faced under the brutal rule of the Soviet Empire.
Foreign Volunteers in the German Wehrmacht in WWII

This still does not counter my argument. Those people above shared the same ideals as the Germans (although I would still like to have explained Indians and Muslims in the SS from a proper aryan Nazi rofl). Alas, WWII was not fought between Nations but betweens ideologies. Communism is, whatever it became, a child of the great revolutions. Fascism and Nazism are opposed to them.

 

[Bleipriester]

This still does not counter my argument. Those people above shared the same ideals as the Germans.

Some of them, a few. The rest had to choose between Hitler and Stalin.

Alas, WWII was not fought between Nations but betweens ideologies. Communism is, whatever it became, a child of the great revolutions. Fascism and Nazism are opposed to them.

Wrong. It was political. Playing a dominant role in the world.

(although I would still like to have explained Indians and Muslims in the SS from a proper aryan Nazi rofl)

You are always thinking about aryan, race, Lebensraum and therefor have no idea about this. I know history and know why...

India was under control of the United Kingdom and the Brits forced Indianns to serve, otherwise their family would starve. Suffering under the Brits, many Indians liked the Germans. At the African front Indians were captured by the Germans and became volunteers. It is reported that a German pilot, who crashed in enemy territorry, was picked up by Indians and brought to the Germans.
Germany furthermore had always good relationships to the muslim countries, the Ottoman Empire was with Germany in WWI, and therefor Muslims served mainly in Africa, some for Germany, some for Great Britain. It is reported that the Africa Corps was welcomed by the polulation.