Dresden: Nazi Zombies don´t walk the line

[Colin]

Are you being obtuse, or are you thick? I haven't made any claim whatsoever. The figures I have presented are those arrived at by your own countrymen.

You mean, when they tell something it´s true and when someone else is telling something it´s not true?
I tell you something about these "countrymen". Many "Germans" are busy, very busy to crawl around and suck balls in order to receive prizes and get reputation. The willies coming bottom and mouth are having meetings. The "historian´s" noses are brown, you smell it even from your computerchair in the UK and they have pits everywhere to crawl even deeper.

Well, I guess there's no discussion to be had with you. The only thing I smell is ignorance...yours.

 

[Bleipriester]

What the hell is this thread about? And, what does a disagreement about the number killed have to do with zombies?

Many people died but aren´t listed in the statistics. So they are neither dead nor alive: undead

 

[Bleipriester]

Well, I guess there's no discussion to be had with you. The only thing I smell is ignorance...yours.

Sad, if you really think so. My discussions are always based on facts and not on if its "official" or not. If that is a problem to you, maybe it´s you who has an ignorance issue...

 

[Colin]

Well, I guess there's no discussion to be had with you. The only thing I smell is ignorance...yours.

Sad, if you really think so. My discussions are always based on facts and not on if its "official" or not. If that is a problem to you, maybe it´s you who has an ignorance issue...

The facts have been presented to you. You deny them so nothing else to say.

 

[dilloduck]

Even 20,000 civilian killed is nothing to brag about. No worries--the holocaust will always be #1 on the hit list but that's no excuse to turn a blind eye to the " little" mass murders.

 

[Bleipriester]

The facts have been presented to you. You deny them so nothing else to say.

What facts? That 4500 tons of explosives kill only 25.000 people? You like that number, it´s pretty small. Good for a Brit.

 

[Bleipriester]

Even 20,000 civilian killed is nothing to brag about. No worries--the holocaust will always be #1 on the hit list but that's no excuse to turn a blind eye to the " little" mass murders.

The estimations about the number of Stalin´s victims are 3 to 60 million. But he was one of the allies and got 007´s famous license...

 

[Toronado3800]

Are we trying to debate if Hitler or Stalin was a bigger monster?

Um....how many people did Stalin kill in France and England? That is apparently what got the U.S. into the war. A great many folks here were content to watch the Germans run into the Russians.

Personally I think Hitler was the greater threat to civilization in general but you won't catch me defending Stalin.

Oh, and yeah, by the time two generations of Americans had to send their sons and husbands to go push Germany back from world conquest I would have either given the whole country to Stalin to do with as he pleased or given it to the Jews.

Obviously in hindsight we did the moral and politically correct thing in rebuilding Germany. But at the time I would not have done it. What would you have done?

Damn, the joy of stopping Patton at the Rhine and saying "shoot any non Jew who crosses" would have been nice.

 

[Bleipriester]

Um....how many people did Stalin kill in France and England?

The Wehrmacht, our great and brave troops, managed that he did not kill a single human being there.

During the Occupation of France, German soldiers were forbidden to loot and steal from any French Citizens, they also had strict orders to be respectfull to all French Citizens. Look at pictures of German soldiers in Paris, there buying soveniers and helping carry bundles for old ladies. The German High Command wanted the people of France to see that the Germans were good people and that they were respectfull. The French Resistance was a small element in the country and often had to depend on stolen/surplus supplies and supplies airdropped in by the RAF.
Not everyone in France was a member of the French Resistance but they would help them in many cases, such as hiding them or giving them food.
Living under German occupation or under Vichy - France - WW2 Talk

The interesting thing is the immense care that is taken to please the French people and to show that German and French culture are not only essentially harmonious, but are complementary to each other. "Collaboration" is the daily theme, profuse flattery being addressed to the French businesses represented at the Leipzig fair, to the France Européenne exhibition, to the French banking system, to the particular French political and economic gifts that could play their part in the new Europe. There are glowing articles about Paris, its monuments, places of historic interest, its cafes, gaiety, charm, its bread, its women. "The beauty of Paris is that she is really like an impressionist painting," ran one typical sentence in a recent article.

Nightclubs are praised and advertised. The suggestion is implied that Paris, with its historical, cultural and entertainment value, is to become the chief centre of recreation and relaxation for the German overlords of the future, and that France will thereby be contributing a valuable part in the future working of the New Order in Europe.

The emphasis that is laid on the life of Paris during the period of military occupation is designed to show that French cultural life is flourishing as impressively as before the occupation. French singers are given objective praise as artists. French authors, playwrights and actors are encouraged. The French film industry, suppressed in the early days of the occupation, is now resuscitated and encouraged, whereby the German authorities indirectly claim credit as the rebuilders of French cultural life.
Life in occupied France during the second world war | World news | The Guardian

The German Soldier's Ten Commandments

1. While fighting for victory the German soldier will observe the rules of chivalrous warfare. Cruelties and senseless destruction are below his standard.

2. Combatants will be in uniform or will wear specially introduced and clearly distinguishable badges. Fighting in plain clothes or without such badges is prohibited.

3. No enemy who has surrendered will be killed, including partisans and spies. They will be duly punished by courts.

4. P.O.W. will not be ill-treated or insulted. While arms, maps, and records are to be taken away from them, their personal belongings will not be touched.

5. Dum-Dum bullets are prohibited; also no other bullets may be transformed into Dum-Dum.

6. Red Cross Institutions are sacrosanct. Injured enemies are to be treated in a humane way. Medical personnel and army chaplains may not be hindered in the execution of their medical, or clerical activities.

7. The civilian population is sacrosanct. No looting nor wanton destruction is permitted to the soldier. Landmarks of historical value or buildings serving religious purposes, art, science, or charity are to be especially respected. Deliveries in kind made, as well as services rendered by the population, may only be claimed if ordered by superiors and only against compensation.

8. Neutral territory will never be entered nor passed over by planes, nor shot at; it will not be the object of warlike activities of any kind.

9. If a German soldier is made a prisoner of war he will tell his name and rank if he is asked for it. Under no circumstances will he reveal to which unit he belongs, nor will he give any information about German military, political, and economic conditions. Neither promises nor threats may induce him to do so.

10. Offenses against the a/m matters of duty will be punished. Enemy offenses against the principles under 1 to 8 are to be reported. Reprisals are only permissible on order of higher commands.
German Soldier's Ten Commandments

 

[Toronado3800]

Um....how many people did Stalin kill in France and England?

The Wehrmacht, our great and brave troops, managed that he did not kill a single human being there.

During the Occupation of France, German soldiers were forbidden to loot and steal from any French Citizens, they also had strict orders to be respectfull to all French Citizens. Look at pictures of German soldiers in Paris, there buying soveniers and helping carry bundles for old ladies. The German High Command wanted the people of France to see that the Germans were good people and that they were respectfull. The French Resistance was a small element in the country and often had to depend on stolen/surplus supplies and supplies airdropped in by the RAF.
Not everyone in France was a member of the French Resistance but they would help them in many cases, such as hiding them or giving them food.
Living under German occupation or under Vichy - France - WW2 Talk

The interesting thing is the immense care that is taken to please the French people and to show that German and French culture are not only essentially harmonious, but are complementary to each other. "Collaboration" is the daily theme, profuse flattery being addressed to the French businesses represented at the Leipzig fair, to the France Européenne exhibition, to the French banking system, to the particular French political and economic gifts that could play their part in the new Europe. There are glowing articles about Paris, its monuments, places of historic interest, its cafes, gaiety, charm, its bread, its women. "The beauty of Paris is that she is really like an impressionist painting," ran one typical sentence in a recent article.

Nightclubs are praised and advertised. The suggestion is implied that Paris, with its historical, cultural and entertainment value, is to become the chief centre of recreation and relaxation for the German overlords of the future, and that France will thereby be contributing a valuable part in the future working of the New Order in Europe.

The emphasis that is laid on the life of Paris during the period of military occupation is designed to show that French cultural life is flourishing as impressively as before the occupation. French singers are given objective praise as artists. French authors, playwrights and actors are encouraged. The French film industry, suppressed in the early days of the occupation, is now resuscitated and encouraged, whereby the German authorities indirectly claim credit as the rebuilders of French cultural life.
Life in occupied France during the second world war | World news | The Guardian

The German Soldier's Ten Commandments

1. While fighting for victory the German soldier will observe the rules of chivalrous warfare. Cruelties and senseless destruction are below his standard.

2. Combatants will be in uniform or will wear specially introduced and clearly distinguishable badges. Fighting in plain clothes or without such badges is prohibited.

3. No enemy who has surrendered will be killed, including partisans and spies. They will be duly punished by courts.

4. P.O.W. will not be ill-treated or insulted. While arms, maps, and records are to be taken away from them, their personal belongings will not be touched.

5. Dum-Dum bullets are prohibited; also no other bullets may be transformed into Dum-Dum.

6. Red Cross Institutions are sacrosanct. Injured enemies are to be treated in a humane way. Medical personnel and army chaplains may not be hindered in the execution of their medical, or clerical activities.

7. The civilian population is sacrosanct. No looting nor wanton destruction is permitted to the soldier. Landmarks of historical value or buildings serving religious purposes, art, science, or charity are to be especially respected. Deliveries in kind made, as well as services rendered by the population, may only be claimed if ordered by superiors and only against compensation.

8. Neutral territory will never be entered nor passed over by planes, nor shot at; it will not be the object of warlike activities of any kind.

9. If a German soldier is made a prisoner of war he will tell his name and rank if he is asked for it. Under no circumstances will he reveal to which unit he belongs, nor will he give any information about German military, political, and economic conditions. Neither promises nor threats may induce him to do so.

10. Offenses against the a/m matters of duty will be punished. Enemy offenses against the principles under 1 to 8 are to be reported. Reprisals are only permissible on order of higher commands.
German Soldier's Ten Commandments

I have been AMAZED at how only German troops could act badly enough to rally the Russians around Stalin. Heck, the Germans probably did more to keep the U.S.S.R. from coming apart than anyone. At least one German had a decent idea on how to properly occupy a country. Was that guy put to death the next day after he wrote it?

Hey, I know it is a little off geographically but I didn't think it was worth the time to come up with a good French example:

Which country's monsters was the young girl with the diary in the attic hiding from?

 

[Bleipriester]

I have been AMAZED at how only German troops could act badly enough to rally the Russians around Stalin. Heck, the Germans probably did more to keep the U.S.S.R. from coming apart than anyone. At least one German had a decent idea on how to properly occupy a country. Was that guy put to death the next day after he wrote it?

You have no clue. The Red Army in 1941, before the war begun:
20.000 Tanks
17.000 Aircrafts
34.000 Field guns and artillery guns
5.700.000 Soldiers

Heck, the Germans probably did more to keep the U.S.S.R. from coming apart than anyone.

Yeah, Sure...

Hey, I know it is a little off geographically but I didn't think it was worth the time to come up with a good French example:

Which country's monsters was the young girl with the diary in the attic hiding from?

Should I start with something like this? How many letters may I write per posting?

 

[whitehall]

The numbers may or may not be right but where do you get the political affiliation? From political hatred 101? Last I heard the propaganda created around the Dresden bombings originated from the Truman administration. FDR and Truman certainly weren't conservatives and the news media at the time favored democrat administrations.

Why do you think there must be a political affiliation?

My mistake. I read it wrong.

 

[Toronado3800]

I have been AMAZED at how only German troops could act badly enough to rally the Russians around Stalin. Heck, the Germans probably did more to keep the U.S.S.R. from coming apart than anyone. At least one German had a decent idea on how to properly occupy a country. Was that guy put to death the next day after he wrote it?

You have no clue. The Red Army in 1941, before the war begun:
20.000 Tanks
17.000 Aircrafts
34.000 Field guns and artillery guns
5.700.000 Soldiers

Heck, the Germans probably did more to keep the U.S.S.R. from coming apart than anyone.

Yeah, Sure...

Hey, I know it is a little off geographically but I didn't think it was worth the time to come up with a good French example:

Which country's monsters was the young girl with the diary in the attic hiding from?

Should I start with something like this? How many letters may I write per posting?

Sure, go with the letters. I look forward to you listing EVERY tattoo a german ever gave a jew. Then you can talk about the dead commies.

Next, how about posting more pictures of Churchill sitting next to Stalin.

Then post a few links to how the Germans angered the populace in Russia on their way to the December 1941 retreat from Moscow so much so that the monster of the purges looked like Papa Joe to his people.

Then post a few links about tank problems in the cold.

Let me take your talking points, positive things to say about WWII Germany:
1 They hated the Commies / Stalin
2 They could count and keep records like few other folks
3 They understood how WWII ground warfare was to be fought.

Good soldiers, really.

Absolute monsters in sharp looking western European clothing.

 

[dilloduck]

I have been AMAZED at how only German troops could act badly enough to rally the Russians around Stalin. Heck, the Germans probably did more to keep the U.S.S.R. from coming apart than anyone. At least one German had a decent idea on how to properly occupy a country. Was that guy put to death the next day after he wrote it?

You have no clue. The Red Army in 1941, before the war begun:
20.000 Tanks
17.000 Aircrafts
34.000 Field guns and artillery guns
5.700.000 Soldiers



Yeah, Sure...

Hey, I know it is a little off geographically but I didn't think it was worth the time to come up with a good French example:

Which country's monsters was the young girl with the diary in the attic hiding from?

Should I start with something like this? How many letters may I write per posting?

Sure, go with the letters. I look forward to you listing EVERY tattoo a german ever gave a jew. Then you can talk about the dead commies.

Next, how about posting more pictures of Churchill sitting next to Stalin.

Then post a few links to how the Germans angered the populace in Russia on their way to the December 1941 retreat from Moscow so much so that the monster of the purges looked like Papa Joe to his people.

Then post a few links about tank problems in the cold.

Let me take your talking points, positive things to say about WWII Germany:
1 They hated the Commies / Stalin
2 They could count and keep records like few other folks
3 They understood how WWII ground warfare was to be fought.

Good soldiers, really.

Absolute monsters in sharp looking western European clothing.

Don't forget that they tried to assassinate Hitler.

 

[Toronado3800]

Yes, a couple times a couple Germans did try to assassinate Hitler.

Man, if I was president in 45 for the sake of German citizens I hope you would have had my ear. Keep talking. Do you think just scattering the whole population of the country around the world would have been immoral? Imagine being President or someone who fought in WWI and then saw your son fight in WWII. I absolutely could not take the chance of getting slapped a third time by the Germans.

Man, nuking Germany, definitely immoral in August of 45 as ONE innocent human was bound to be killed.

Stopping at the Rhine....I dunno. They invaded the U.S.S.R. so what the Germans got out of it they deserved. But Stalin was a monster also.

Fine fine, we can scatter them to and fro across the planet. Darn U.S. at the time was soo racist I doubt we could have stood many but fine, we'll take 10 million of them and just not give the first generation the right to vote.

 

[dilloduck]

Yes, a couple times a couple Germans did try to assassinate Hitler.

Man, if I was president in 45 for the sake of German citizens I hope you would have had my ear. Keep talking. Do you think just scattering the whole population of the country around the world would have been immoral? Imagine being President or someone who fought in WWI and then saw your son fight in WWII. I absolutely could not take the chance of getting slapped a third time by the Germans.

Man, nuking Germany, definitely immoral in August of 45 as ONE innocent human was bound to be killed.

Stopping at the Rhine....I dunno. They invaded the U.S.S.R. so what the Germans got out of it they deserved. But Stalin was a monster also.

Fine fine, we can scatter them to and fro across the planet. Darn U.S. at the time was soo racist I doubt we could have stood many but fine, we'll take 10 million of them and just not give the first generation the right to vote.

It certainly should have made the point that organizations like the League of Nation and the UN couldn't do a damn thing to stop them. Or anyone else for that matter.

 

[Bleipriester]

Yes, a couple times a couple Germans did try to assassinate Hitler.

Man, if I was president in 45 for the sake of German citizens I hope you would have had my ear. Keep talking. Do you think just scattering the whole population of the country around the world would have been immoral? Imagine being President or someone who fought in WWI and then saw your son fight in WWII. I absolutely could not take the chance of getting slapped a third time by the Germans.

Man, nuking Germany, definitely immoral in August of 45 as ONE innocent human was bound to be killed.

Stopping at the Rhine....I dunno. They invaded the U.S.S.R. so what the Germans got out of it they deserved. But Stalin was a monster also.

Fine fine, we can scatter them to and fro across the planet. Darn U.S. at the time was soo racist I doubt we could have stood many but fine, we'll take 10 million of them and just not give the first generation the right to vote.

That isn´t about Hitler. Hitler wasn´t Germany.

Once I had a history book with a WWII timeline. According to the book, Stalin offered Hitler a peace treaty before the Red Army entered German territory. Hitler rejected this offer in a fit of rage and ordered the final victory. So he was definitely not wise and a good leader or simply not right in his senses anymore.

Here is some interesting suff about rare Hitler recordings showing really another Hitler from the one we know from his speeches. Documentation by N24, German tv network:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxYOVLj-TJM]Das Hitler Tonband [HD] - YouTube[/ame]

 

[numan]

'
I think Bleipriester's original point was that the terror bombing of defenseless German civililans by England and America was as vile as anything the Nazis did in a similar vein. I agree with him. I especially deplore the cultural destruction.

And it wasn't just in Dresden -- it happened all over Germany.

A German friend from that era remarked in exasperation, "I was a victim of the Nazis, too!"

I certainly don't want to romanticise the Nazi period. Both the people and the rulers acted disgracefully, and brought shame on Germany that will last a long time.

In justice, I would say that the American people and rulers have brought similar shame on the USA since the Second World War -- and seem to be getting worse all the time.

Of course, if you look at American history, the Americans are more used to acting disgracefully than the Germans are, and it doesn't seem to bother the Americans as much.
.

 

[whitehall]

'
I think Bleipriester's original point was that the terror bombing of defenseless German civililans by England and America was as vile as anything the Nazis did in a similar vein. I agree with him. I especially deplore the cultural destruction.

And it wasn't just in Dresden -- it happened all over Germany.

A German friend from that era remarked in exasperation, "I was a victim of the Nazis, too!"

I certainly don't want to romanticise the Nazi period. Both the people and the rulers acted disgracefully, and brought shame on Germany that will last a long time.

In justice, I would say that the American people and rulers have brought similar shame on the USA since the Second World War -- and seem to be getting worse all the time.

Of course, if you look at American history, the Americans are more used to acting disgracefully than the Germans are, and it doesn't seem to bother the Americans as much.
.

The sacrifice of the United States in two world wars in the 20th century probably saved the DNA of every "hate-America'" radical on the forum but they still hate us. Go figure.

 

[numan]

The sacrifice of the United States in two world wars in the 20th century probably saved the DNA of every "hate-America'" radical on the forum but they still hate us. Go figure.

More ridiculous hyperbole.

American financial interests did very well out of both World Wars, thank you -- and they have been making out like bandits ever since.

Of course, the brainless proles in America didn't do so well out of America's military banditry.

But as O'Brien remarked in Orwell's 1984, "The proles are not people."
.