Dow cracks 45000 (45010.29) on trade deal news

[Mashmont]

Okay, what happens when, say, more of the income/GDP growth keeps going disproportionately to the people who already have the wealth?

Like if you're, say, an IT guy or a finance guy and your income goes from 100,000 to 150,000 to 200,000, to 300,000 and so on, but the Door Dash and Uber guy is stuck at $15-20 per hour...what happens?

The people in the higher income brackets can afford to accumulate the assets and the people at the bottom of the scale can only afford to use assets (not own them) by borrowing money from lenders.

To be fair, I had this argument with Bidenistas who kept insisting that their guy was gonna win because the stock market and GDP. I kept telling them that Old Man Joe needs to back out of the race not only b/c of his age but b/c of his shitty messaging. The polls were real. They didn't believe me or the polls.

I'm making the same point with you that I made with Bidenistas.

Again, supply and demand. Some people can't afford to buy a home in particular areas. An uber driver or equivalent has NEVER been able to buy a home in a big city. That's life. Nothing wrong with it. Nothing "unfair" about it. The choice is either to make more money, which anyone can do in America, or move to where you can afford to buy a house.

I once thought I might like to retire to a place like Carlsbad or Encinitas, CA. I could afford to buy a house there,, but who wants to? Then I'd have to worry about theft rings breaking into my house, high taxes, and leftwing craziness. Here, I don't. The point is, high-priced areas come with problems many wouldn't want. So in some ways, income inequality isn't so bad for those who have less.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Why do you think buying a starter home is increasingly difficult?

What's the difference between the median and the mean?

/----/ Buying a starter home is not difficult. If you can't afford a home in Manhattan, buy one in Queens. DUHHH

 

[Cellblock2429]

Okay, what happens when, say, more of the income/GDP growth keeps going disproportionately to the people who already have the wealth?

Like if you're, say, an IT guy or a finance guy and your income goes from 100,000 to 150,000 to 200,000, to 300,000 and so on, but the Door Dash and Uber guy is stuck at $15-20 per hour...what happens?

The people in the higher income brackets can afford to accumulate the assets and the people at the bottom of the scale can only afford to use assets (not own them) by borrowing money from lenders.

To be fair, I had this argument with Bidenistas who kept insisting that their guy was gonna win because the stock market and GDP. I kept telling them that Old Man Joe needs to back out of the race not only b/c of his age but b/c of his shitty messaging. The polls were real. They didn't believe me or the polls.

I'm making the same point with you that I made with Bidenistas.

/----/ The Door Dash guy needs to get a viable education, improve his/her skills, and get a better paying job. DERP

 

[luiza]

The Banks and Professionals play while the storm clouds grow daily .

 

[multivita-man]

/----/ The Door Dash guy needs to get a viable education, improve his/her skills, and get a better paying job. DERP

But Door Dash guy can't because his rent, utilities, and food are rising faster than his wages, and he went into debt to finance a car that's significantly more expensive than it was a decade ago.

 

[multivita-man]

/----/ Buying a starter home is not difficult. If you can't afford a home in Manhattan, buy one in Queens. DUHHH

People on the lower end of the wage scale can't just move. Capital can move a lot more easily than people. Manhattan real estate investor can buy multiple homes that he either rents out or just leaves vacant as an extra home for whenever he's tired of Manhattan.

Besides that, everyone else is going to have the same idea: move to where the mortgages and rents are cheaper. That's a good idea at first, but as I said, capital moves more easily than people. That's why globalization has been such a disaster for the working class. Using your logic, the white working class family man in some small town in Ohio should have just moved with his factory to Mexico or China when the executives decided to relocate the plant.

 

[Correll]

I said this to Planet Biden when he was president and they didn't like it either: the stock market indices and GDP are not really good indicators of the common welfare.

That is true.

BUt it is still strong evidence that those experts are wrong AGAIN.

And if we do NOT have a recession that will be good for people in general.


AND we have a lot of old people or people getting old, who are watching their retirement funds climb nicely.

 

[Correll]

All good, but it's not going to help reverse our decades-long trend of growing wealth and income inequality.

Actually manufacturing jobs are generaly well paying and have upward mobility.

They will help greatly our trend of income inequality.

And don't forget the large number of middle class people with their 401ks.

 

[Correll]

The differnce between 15 dollars an hour and 20,

Okay, what happens when, say, more of the income/GDP growth keeps going disproportionately to the people who already have the wealth?

Like if you're, say, an IT guy or a finance guy and your income goes from 100,000 to 150,000 to 200,000, to 300,000 and so on, but the Door Dash and Uber guy is stuck at $15-20 per hour...what happens?

The people in the higher income brackets can afford to accumulate the assets and the people at the bottom of the scale can only afford to use assets (not own them) by borrowing money from lenders.

To be fair, I had this argument with Bidenistas who kept insisting that their guy was gonna win because the stock market and GDP. I kept telling them that Old Man Joe needs to back out of the race not only b/c of his age but b/c of his shitty messaging. The polls were real. They didn't believe me or the polls.

I'm making the same point with you that I made with Bidenistas.

The difference between 15 dollars and hour and 20, can be the difference between poverty and working poor.


You get your core necessities covered and then the any money over that becomes DISPOSAL INCOME and the change in your life can be sudden and wonderful.

IF you resist the bad advice of buying a nicer car or some such shit.

 

[Correll]

People on the lower end of the wage scale can't just move. Capital can move a lot more easily than people. Manhattan real estate investor can buy multiple homes that he either rents out or just leaves vacant as an extra home for whenever he's tired of Manhattan.

Besides that, everyone else is going to have the same idea: move to where the mortgages and rents are cheaper. That's a good idea at first, but as I said, capital moves more easily than people. That's why globalization has been such a disaster for the working class. Using your logic, the white working class family man in some small town in Ohio should have just moved with his factory to Mexico or China when the executives decided to relocate the plant.

Trump's policies are pushing back on globalization.

 

[Correll]

But Door Dash guy can't because his rent, utilities, and food are rising faster than his wages, and he went into debt to finance a car that's significantly more expensive than it was a decade ago.

1. I bet that is already NOT true.

2. Many of trumps policies, from deporting the illegals, to limiting h1-b visas to better trade deals, to encouraging investments in america, will improve the labor market for the Door Dash guy.

 

[multivita-man]

That is true.

BUt it is still strong evidence that those experts are wrong AGAIN.

Just like the experts in 2022-23 who said there was a 100% chance of a recession within by the end of the year. Never underestimate the ability of the Fed & Treasury to print our way out of a recession...until that stops working, of course. Which it will. Eventually.

And if we do NOT have a recession that will be good for people in general.


AND we have a lot of old people or people getting old, who are watching their retirement funds climb nicely.

As are their costs of living, including healthcare, which, by the way, is now something like 20% (or more) of our GDP.

That's kind of my point, really. What is GDP for? What is GDP producing? Is it producing lots of new small businesses that enable people to become self-sufficient to support a family? Is it producing cars and other durable goods with human hands with salaries that can support a middle class lifestyle? Or is it supporting a complicated, overpriced, patchwork healthcare system that is increasingly inefficient and indirectly paying healthcare providers more in expenses so that they can pay those $300,000 in outstanding loans from medical school?

Our economy is increasingly debt-fueled and debt-dependent. Everyone talks about the growing sovereign debt crisis, as they well should, but private debt far eclipses that, and that is becoming a bigger part of our overall economic picture. People borrow so that they can live a middle class lifestyle. That's a bubble that will eventually pop, and it's going to be ugly when it does.

 

[multivita-man]

1. I bet that is already NOT true.

2. Many of trumps policies, from deporting the illegals, to limiting h1-b visas to better trade deals, to encouraging investments in america, will improve the labor market for the Door Dash guy.

I would agree with you, except for the fact that this administration is going to gut the welfare state. Re-shoring and increasing workforce participation are good things *if workers can be choosy about whether they want to participate. Because if they can, it means that they're likely to work for higher wages. Otherwise, their wages stagnate even as productivity climbs, which is what we have now and have had since about 1978.

 

[multivita-man]

Trump's policies are pushing back on globalization.

They are, and I commend that (to a degree). I think he's moving too fast and risking major disruptions, but I get the thinking: if he doesn't just take a wrecking ball to the system, the system will outlive his presidency and reconstitute itself.

But as I said in my previous post: reshoring and increasing domestic workforce participation is only a good thing if there's a growth in real wages that tracks growth in productivity. I see no evidence this administration's committed to that.

 

[Correll]

Just like the experts in 2022-23 who said there was a 100% chance of a recession within by the end of the year. Never underestimate the ability of the Fed & Treasury to print our way out of a recession...until that stops working, of course. Which it will. Eventually.



As are their costs of living, including healthcare, which, by the way, is now something like 20% (or more) of our GDP.

Im pretty sure that over time the stock market generally outperforms inflation.

That's kind of my point, really. What is GDP for? What is GDP producing? Is it producing lots of new small businesses that enable people to become self-sufficient to support a family? Is it producing cars and other durable goods with human hands with salaries that can support a middle class lifestyle? Or is it supporting a complicated, overpriced, patchwork healthcare system that is increasingly inefficient and indirectly paying healthcare providers more in expenses so that they can pay those $300,000 in outstanding loans from medical school?

All the above and more.

Our economy is increasingly debt-fueled and debt-dependent. Everyone talks about the growing sovereign debt crisis, as they well should, but private debt far eclipses that, and that is becoming a bigger part of our overall economic picture. People borrow so that they can live a middle class lifestyle. That's a bubble that will eventually pop, and it's going to be ugly when it does.

You complain about the economic status quo, but it seems like nearly every post I see from you is attacking MAGA for trying to change that.

 

[multivita-man]

You complain about the economic status quo, but it seems like nearly every post I see from you is attacking MAGA for trying to change that.

No, I support some of what MAGA is doing. I'm skeptical they're going to do it in ways that really improve people's lives, though. Just reshoring alone isn't going to salvage what the American working class has lost. It's definitely an improvement over corporate Republicans and Democrats pretending that globalization is the true realization of comparative advantage and that free trade is fair trade, but it's just one piece of the overall puzzle, IMO.

 

[Correll]

I would agree with you, except for the fact that this administration is going to gut the welfare state. Re-shoring and increasing workforce participation are good things *if workers can be choosy about whether they want to participate. Because if they can, it means that they're likely to work for higher wages. Otherwise, their wages stagnate even as productivity climbs, which is what we have now and have had since about 1978.

1. Interesting use of welfare, to put pressure on employers. I'm not sure that if that is a good idea, but it is certainly not the PURPOSE of welfare.

2. Even if Trump's first term, with him distracted by two fuckign impeachments and massive RESIST, from teh dems, lower end wages showed good growth, pre-covid. This time, with Trump all pissed off and with republican control of congress, I expect that the numbers will start showing good growth immediately.

3. Correct. 1978. THe policies, the status quo has failed. Yet, people are fighting viciously and bitterly against any attempts to change or reverse those failed policies. It is maddness.

 

[Correll]

No, I support some of what MAGA is doing. I'm skeptical they're going to do it in ways that really improve people's lives, though. Just reshoring alone isn't going to salvage what the American working class has lost. It's definitely an improvement over corporate Republicans and Democrats pretending that globalization is the true realization of comparative advantage and that free trade is fair trade, but it's just one piece of the overall puzzle, IMO.

That's something. So thanks for that.

But it is not just that. There is also the deportations. ANd limiting h1-b visas.

And no one says that it has to STOP there. I hope that this is just the beginning.

 

[candycorn]

What are the investments in?

All in his head.

 

[Cellblock2429]

People on the lower end of the wage scale can't just move. Capital can move a lot more easily than people. Manhattan real estate investor can buy multiple homes that he either rents out or just leaves vacant as an extra home for whenever he's tired of Manhattan.

Besides that, everyone else is going to have the same idea: move to where the mortgages and rents are cheaper. That's a good idea at first, but as I said, capital moves more easily than people. That's why globalization has been such a disaster for the working class. Using your logic, the white working class family man in some small town in Ohio should have just moved with his factory to Mexico or China when the executives decided to relocate the plant.

/----/ "People on the lower end of the wage scale can't just move."
Of course they can. I did it; my colleagues did it. When I lost my job in 1972, I moved from an expensive neighborhood in Nassau County to Richmond Hill, Queens, at almost half the cost and two blocks away from the subway.
Besides, why are they are living in an expensive place in the first place?