Document confirms World Zionist Organization allocates land to settlers in Jordan val

[Coyote]

Sunni Man, et al,

This is a security issue.

The jews have always been known throughout history for double dealing and cheating people.

So their stealing the farmers land should come as no surprise to anyone. ..

(COMMENT)

Those Arab Palestinians would still have their land to farm if they had not proven to be a danger to the border security.

They will get their land back (in all probability) when peace between the Palestinian and Israel is negotiated.

There is no theft involved. This was a case of "eminent domain" (the power to take private property for security and safety purposes).

Both sides (Israeli and Palestinian) are at each others throats. They each claim the worst of the other. At some point, each will have to grow-up and look at each incident and event through unbiased and evidentiary eyes.

Most Respectfully,
R

Eminent domain does not usually involve taking property and giving it to private citizens. Do you REALLY think they'll get their land back? What about income lost from it? What condition will it be left in? Shouldn't they be paid a lease?

Seriously Rocco - in this one particular instance - this seems very wrong to let others gain income from the property. Eminant domain at least PAYS for what it takes.

 

[Hoffstra]

eminent domain is about the greater good of all society.

taking property from Arabs so that it can be farmed by Jews, has nothing to do with the greater good of all society.

 

[pbel]

Sunni Man, et al,

This is a security issue.

The jews have always been known throughout history for double dealing and cheating people.

So their stealing the farmers land should come as no surprise to anyone. ..

(COMMENT)

Those Arab Palestinians would still have their land to farm if they had not proven to be a danger to the border security.

They will get their land back (in all probability) when peace between the Palestinian and Israel is negotiated.

There is no theft involved. This was a case of "eminent domain" (the power to take private property for security and safety purposes).

Both sides (Israeli and Palestinian) are at each others throats. They each claim the worst of the other. At some point, each will have to grow-up and look at each incident and event through unbiased and evidentiary eyes.

Most Respectfully,
R

Eminent domain does not usually involve taking property and giving it to private citizens. Do you REALLY think they'll get their land back? What about income lost from it? What condition will it be left in? Shouldn't they be paid a lease?

Seriously Rocco - in this one particular instance - this seems very wrong to let others gain income from the property. Eminant domain at least PAYS for what it takes.

Maybe I'm not getting this: what has eminent domain have to do with an occupation? Eminent Domain is a government taking from its own citizens...this my view is a war crime, plain and simple.

 

[Coyote]

So there is truth in the accusations of land theft ..

dude, the Israel Civil Administration accuses the settlers of theft, as they have taken Palestinian property without any permission from the govt.

That's not what I'm getting from the article...

Discussions have recently been held in the Civil Administration and in the office of the coordinator of government activities in the territories on this matter. It is a complex legal issue, because the settlers farming these lands are not trespassers but are persons who were legally allocated the lands by the WZO. On the other hand, the lands also legally belong to their Palestinian owners. The coordinator of government activities in the territories, Maj. Gen. Eitan Dangot, has instructed that all Palestinians who request compensation for the lands they cannot farm should be compensated by the Civil Administration.

The settlers didn't illegally take the land - the WZO did.

 

[P F Tinmore]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjfzfGcZlXo]84 b Sleepless Gaza Jerusalem.divx - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Hoffstra]

It saddens me greatly, that Jews can support this.

Its one thing to take land due to military necessity. This is legal under international law.

But to then go ahead and let other civilians farm the land, without paying any compensation to the landowners for the use of their land and water, is disgusting and beyond the pale.

Shame on the Jews and their support for this. Shame on them.

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

I'm not sure it is totally fair. It has been more than 150 years since anyone in the US has really been charged with adding and abetting hostile infiltrators.

Sunni Man, et al,

This is a security issue.

The jews have always been known throughout history for double dealing and cheating people.

So their stealing the farmers land should come as no surprise to anyone. ..

(COMMENT)

Those Arab Palestinians would still have their land to farm if they had not proven to be a danger to the border security.

They will get their land back (in all probability) when peace between the Palestinian and Israel is negotiated.

There is no theft involved. This was a case of "eminent domain" (the power to take private property for security and safety purposes).

Both sides (Israeli and Palestinian) are at each others throats. They each claim the worst of the other. At some point, each will have to grow-up and look at each incident and event through unbiased and evidentiary eyes.

Most Respectfully,
R

Eminent domain does not usually involve taking property and giving it to private citizens. Do you REALLY think they'll get their land back? What about income lost from it? What condition will it be left in? Shouldn't they be paid a lease?

Seriously Rocco - in this one particular instance - this seems very wrong to let others gain income from the property. Eminant domain at least PAYS for what it takes.

(COMMENT)

You are right, in the US "eminent domain" is usually used for public use.

In this case, I can see the logic in the Israeli thought.

Normally, in a national security crime (as well as other certain crimes), the property is confiscated. The person using that property in the furtherance of a national security crime is arrest, charged and prosecuted. Sometimes, in lieu of a fine, property is forfeited. In most Middle Eastern countries, national security crimes have very severe penalties.

If a person is found NOT GUILTY, then there is a claim made for confiscated property, loss of revenue, and other losses in equity or restitution.

There is little question in my mind that, in most cases, individuals in the West Bank that had property (land) confiscated will get them back once the Israelis and the State of Palestine have successfully concluded peace negotiations. These types of comprehensive negotiations usually involve the settlement of claims (escrow accounts), war reparations, restitution and monetary settlements which would cover claims on both sides. I suspect that each side will have extensive lists of damages, deaths, terrorist acts and alike, as well as, property issues to be resolved.

Yes, I really believe they will (someday) get their property back. Just as I believe that the Palestinians will pay restitution for the terrorism at the Olympic Games, high seas piracy of the Achille Lauro, and the numerous aircraft hijacked; not to mention the number of airports attacked, the suicide bombings, and the ambushes/rocket attacks.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hoffstra]

No trial.

No defense.

No attorneys.

No ability to appeal the military order.


...and now the land is being farmed by other civilians.

Only an asshole would consider this to be ok.

 

[pbel]

It saddens me greatly, that Jews can support this.

Its one thing to take land due to military necessity. This is legal under international law.

But to then go ahead and let other civilians farm the land, without paying any compensation to the landowners for the use of their land and water, is disgusting and beyond the pale.

Shame on the Jews and their support for this. Shame on them.

I thought the UN had already declared the occupation illegal?

 

[Hoffstra]

I thought the UN had already declared the occupation illegal?

military occupation is legal until a peace treaty is signed between the two warring parties.

what's not legal, is the civilian settlement.

.....and confiscating private property for security purposes and then letting settlers farm it and build housing there, without at least compensating the owners.

 

[RoccoR]

Hoffstra; et al,

As the NYPD Detective “Baretta” warned: “Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. ...

No trial.

No defense.

No attorneys.

No ability to appeal the military order.


...and now the land is being farmed by other civilians.

Only an asshole would consider this to be ok.

(COMMENT)

Yes, there is a big difference between people that aid infiltrators and those that don't. Of course Palestinians have a vision problem in this regard.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Normally, in a national security crime

Where did you get that term. I have never heard it before.

BTW, occupations always have security problems. They come with the territory.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, et al,

I'm not sure it is totally fair. It has been more than 150 years since anyone in the US has really been charged with adding and abetting hostile infiltrators.

Sunni Man, et al,

This is a security issue.


(COMMENT)

Those Arab Palestinians would still have their land to farm if they had not proven to be a danger to the border security.

They will get their land back (in all probability) when peace between the Palestinian and Israel is negotiated.

There is no theft involved. This was a case of "eminent domain" (the power to take private property for security and safety purposes).

Both sides (Israeli and Palestinian) are at each others throats. They each claim the worst of the other. At some point, each will have to grow-up and look at each incident and event through unbiased and evidentiary eyes.

Most Respectfully,
R

Eminent domain does not usually involve taking property and giving it to private citizens. Do you REALLY think they'll get their land back? What about income lost from it? What condition will it be left in? Shouldn't they be paid a lease?

Seriously Rocco - in this one particular instance - this seems very wrong to let others gain income from the property. Eminant domain at least PAYS for what it takes.

(COMMENT)

You are right, in the US "eminent domain" is usually used for public use.

In this case, I can see the logic in the Israeli thought.

Normally, in a national security crime (as well as other certain crimes), the property is confiscated. The person using that property in the furtherance of a national security crime is arrest, charged and prosecuted. Sometimes, in lieu of a fine, property is forfeited. In most Middle Eastern countries, national security crimes have very severe penalties.

If a person is found NOT GUILTY, then there is a claim made for confiscated property, loss of revenue, and other losses in equity or restitution.

There is little question in my mind that, in most cases, individuals in the West Bank that had property (land) confiscated will get them back once the Israelis and the State of Palestine have successfully concluded peace negotiations. These types of comprehensive negotiations usually involve the settlement of claims (escrow accounts), war reparations, restitution and monetary settlements which would cover claims on both sides. I suspect that each side will have extensive lists of damages, deaths, terrorist acts and alike, as well as, property issues to be resolved.

Yes, I really believe they will (someday) get their property back. Just as I believe that the Palestinians will pay restitution for the terrorism at the Olympic Games, high seas piracy of the Achille Lauro, and the numerous aircraft hijacked; not to mention the number of airports attacked, the suicide bombings, and the ambushes/rocket attacks.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, you are justifying what is in reality little more then theft. Consider this from the article:

In 1979, the WZO’s Settlement Division submitted a request for the cultivation of these lands “in light of the shortage of farmland in the Jordan Valley, a shortage that is preventing the expansion of existing communities and the establishment of new ones.” During the first government headed by Menachem Begin, the Ministerial Committee on Security Affairs authorized the cultivation of state lands or lands belonging to absentee owners.

In the wake of the committee’s decision, the Israel Defense Forces cleared the mines in this area. Plia Albeck, who directed the Civil Department of the State Prosecutor’s Office for 24 years and maintained close ties with rightist circles, issued a number of statements of professional opinion. In light of the statements she issued, the WZO was authorized to allocate some 75,000 dunams (18,750 acres) of land for farming purposes. Senior military officials, including then-GOC Central Command, Major General Amram Mitzna, approved the allocation of land for cultivation on condition that the farmers had served in the army and were permitted to bear firearms, and on condition that Palestinians would not farm the lands in their stead. It should be pointed out here that, despite the peace settlement Israel signed with Jordan in 1994, these guidelines were not reviewed and remain in effect to this day.

Why are they still in effect?

Why were they not reviewed?

The real reason, it seems to me, is not security - that may have been the original reason - over forty years ago - but more recently it seems to be a need for more farmland for the expansion of settler communities. Farmland that was not theirs Rocco.

When these things come to light, it simply adds fuel and substance the often-repeated accusations of land theft and that really is a legitimate grievance.

 

[pbel]

I thought the UN had already declared the occupation illegal?

military occupation is legal until a peace treaty is signed between the two warring parties.

what's not legal, is the civilian settlement.

.....and confiscating private property for security purposes and then letting settlers farm it and build housing there, without at least compensating the owners.

I thought Israel signed a peace with Jordan and Egypt. Palestine as a nation did not exist at the time, plus today, the state of Palestine has been recognized by the UN to the 67 borders as a non-member state which has access to the International Tribunals.

 

[MHunterB]

Sunni Man, et al,

This is a security issue.

The jews have always been known throughout history for double dealing and cheating people.

So their stealing the farmers land should come as no surprise to anyone. ..

(COMMENT)

Those Arab Palestinians would still have their land to farm if they had not proven to be a danger to the border security.

They will get their land back (in all probability) when peace between the Palestinian and Israel is negotiated.

There is no theft involved. This was a case of "eminent domain" (the power to take private property for security and safety purposes).

Both sides (Israeli and Palestinian) are at each others throats. They each claim the worst of the other. At some point, each will have to grow-up and look at each incident and event through unbiased and evidentiary eyes.

Most Respectfully,
R

Eminent domain does not usually involve taking property and giving it to private citizens. Do you REALLY think they'll get their land back? What about income lost from it? What condition will it be left in? Shouldn't they be paid a lease?

Seriously Rocco - in this one particular instance - this seems very wrong to let others gain income from the property. Eminant domain at least PAYS for what it takes.

And it's being investigated - I expect that eventually there will be a court order for compensation which the current cultivators/government agency which erroneously allowed them in will have to pay.

Not as fast, complete or thorough as one could hope - but there IS 'due process' and it's begun.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I thought the UN had already declared the occupation illegal?

military occupation is legal until a peace treaty is signed between the two warring parties.

what's not legal, is the civilian settlement.

.....and confiscating private property for security purposes and then letting settlers farm it and build housing there, without at least compensating the owners.

I thought Israel signed a peace with Jordan and Egypt. Palestine as a nation did not exist at the time, plus today, the state of Palestine has been recognized by the UN to the 67 borders as a non-member state which has access to the International Tribunals.

And besides, stealing or destroying a people's means of survival, like food and water sources, is an act of genocide.

 

[Coyote]

Sunni Man, et al,

This is a security issue.


(COMMENT)

Those Arab Palestinians would still have their land to farm if they had not proven to be a danger to the border security.

They will get their land back (in all probability) when peace between the Palestinian and Israel is negotiated.

There is no theft involved. This was a case of "eminent domain" (the power to take private property for security and safety purposes).

Both sides (Israeli and Palestinian) are at each others throats. They each claim the worst of the other. At some point, each will have to grow-up and look at each incident and event through unbiased and evidentiary eyes.

Most Respectfully,
R

Eminent domain does not usually involve taking property and giving it to private citizens. Do you REALLY think they'll get their land back? What about income lost from it? What condition will it be left in? Shouldn't they be paid a lease?

Seriously Rocco - in this one particular instance - this seems very wrong to let others gain income from the property. Eminant domain at least PAYS for what it takes.

And it's being investigated - I expect that eventually there will be a court order for compensation which the current cultivators/government agency which erroneously allowed them in will have to pay.

Not as fast, complete or thorough as one could hope - but there IS 'due process' and it's begun.

Hopefully, and hopefully a return of the land.

Though, the last paragraph of the article left it a bit unclear:

A Civil Administration official has told Haaretz that the Civil Administration has no intention of initiating any action with regard to this matter. “If someone submits a petition to the Supreme Court in its capacity as the High Court of Justice, requesting that his lands be returned to him, we will have to decide what to do,” the official said.

 

[Hoffstra]

Israel steals Arab land, lets Jews farm it, and doesn't compensate the Arabs in any way.

And Israelis wonder why they are hated.

 

[MHunterB]

eminent domain is about the greater good of all society.

taking property from Arabs so that it can be farmed by Jews, has nothing to do with the greater good of all society.

It is good to see that you understand the thousands of acres of privately-owned land in Arab League nations should never have been taken away from its Jewish owners without ay compensation, and that it has benefitted no one for the AL nations to have committed such theft.

I'm sure Sunni will join you in calling upon the AL nations to provide full compensation to the 950,000 or so citizens whose property and lands were seized by government decree simply because those citizens were Jews........

 

[MHunterB]

military occupation is legal until a peace treaty is signed between the two warring parties.

what's not legal, is the civilian settlement.

.....and confiscating private property for security purposes and then letting settlers farm it and build housing there, without at least compensating the owners.

I thought Israel signed a peace with Jordan and Egypt. Palestine as a nation did not exist at the time, plus today, the state of Palestine has been recognized by the UN to the 67 borders as a non-member state which has access to the International Tribunals.

And besides, stealing or destroying a people's means of survival, like food and water sources, is an act of genocide.

And that is exactly what the Arabs were up to in seeking to illegally (they'd signed treaties) dam the Litani River in the early 60's.... It's good that you can admit that some Arab nations have tried to commit genocide against Israel, as they(AL states) have committed ethnic cleansing by cabal ...