Do we really need a Senate?

[Darkwind]

If we over-turned the 17th amendment to the Constitution and returned the appointment of Senators to be decided by the state, not the general public, you would understand the need for them much better. We'd also have a much better run givernment. Progressives messed up the way our givernment was designed by the founding fathers.

Having a state legislature appoint senators smacks of cronyism and elitism. The direct election of senators seems a lot more in keeping with the ideals of democracy to me.

But that's just MHO.

Except that we have cronyism now, and the States have lost any and all power they should have.

Understand that we do no have a democracy. We democratically elect representatives, but it is still a representative Republic.

Besides, the people do get a vote for the Senators. They voted for their State Legislation, did they not? The reason we have legislators is so that the mob does not rule. This means that we sometimes have to deal with a legislator that breaks away from our values system (John McCain) and votes in ways we did not wish it. (We being the citizens of Arizona in this example).

By turning the election over to direct election from the people, the process has become money corrupted like the rest of it and we now get the government we deserve. A dysfunctional government with elected representatives violating the Constitution for the sake of being reelected and holding onto power at all costs. They have even begun to go outside of our borders to get more votes.

It may already be too late to return to the proper role of the Senate, but to answer the OP....

Yes, we need a Senate. If anything, we need to strip away many of the powers of the President as that office has manage to usurp a lot of the powers of the Congress.

 

[FA_Q2]

If we over-turned the 17th amendment to the Constitution and returned the appointment of Senators to be decided by the state, not the general public, you would understand the need for them much better. We'd also have a much better run givernment. Progressives messed up the way our givernment was designed by the founding fathers.

Having a state legislature appoint senators smacks of cronyism and elitism. The direct election of senators seems a lot more in keeping with the ideals of democracy to me.

But that's just MHO.

Then you misunderstand the principals that this nation was found on. Understand that separation of powers is not just a 3 branches of government idea. There was a clear role that the federal government and the state governments were supposed to fulfill. The idea here is that when you divide up all the power, it is very difficult for a single person or institution to take over or affect the entire country in a largely negative fashion. The state and federal and people interests were open such separation where we would have a senate that represents the state interests. Without that we have lost all semblance of that separation. It is no more or less a bastardization of the system than having the executive power absorb the legislative one.

 

[FA_Q2]

Maybe if the Republicans stopped filibustering every fucking piece of legislation, every judicial nominee, every executive appointment, the Senate would be more functional.

I don't know...I look around and I see many appointees that have been voted on. Heck, 2 SCOTUS appointees with none turned away. Every cabinet position for the first term...SoS for the second....SoT for the second...all big time positions.

So the opposing party doesn't like a few potential appointees.....

And YOUR party has you believing they blocked them all.

What is it like to support a party that knows you are so naïve that you will believe anything they say?

And then there is this.

Why is the filibuster on everyone’s lips still? It is because we have a government that does not think that compromise is worth the effort. In fact, it is somewhat counterproductive to their end goals. Why bother to cobble together a bill that leaves a sour taste in everyone’s mouth when you can pass nothing and then blame the other party for obstructing.

This is a failure in the presidents court at this point. One of his central jobs is getting everyone together and making things work. He has done nothing but divide though and it is only getting worse. No one wants to work with anyone now, it is getting pathetic.

 

[FA_Q2]

Yes we do. The entire point of the constitution is limiting the government’s powers and one key to that is the separation of powers. Combining the senate with the house only serves to consolidate that power.

Now, I would agree that one KEY job that the senate was supposed to fill has been obliterated and that is yet another problem that we face today. The entire point of the senate was that they were to represent the states interests and not the general people’s interests. The house was for the people, the senate was for the states. When we passed the 17th amendment, that entire concept was ruined and it lead to the current setup that we have now with the states being little more than extensions to federal power, not competing interests like they are supposed to be. This is more examples of divided powers coalescing. IMHO, that is really bad for the nation as a whole.

Here we are, 101 years after its ratification, and people such as yourself are now wondering what the senate is even for. Very unfortunate.

The highest power/purpose of the Senate is to pass laws and debate merits of legislation. Currently, it's doing neither. What you said has some truth; much like a car's primary purpose is to get you from point A to point B without being beholden to schedules or routes such as a subwar or bus. But the main idea is conveyance...the Senate is out of gas.

The House could easily fulfill the role the Senate is performing on it's better days.

And I don't need to remind anyone that the party I most closely identify with--the Democrats--are in charge of the body I see as useless and the opposite is true of the body in which I place my faith as being representative of the people; such as it is. It's f'd up too by the way.

Sure, but it actually is accomplishing that though. The senate is passing plenty of legislation. Those things that are being filibustered are usually appointments that the right can’t stand or legislation that is absolutely against their core principals. We have many landmark legislation bills that have passed this senate whilst everyone was calling them ‘do nothing.’ I honestly think that it is silly.

By the way, MOST of those ‘filibusters’ are examples of failed initial cloture votes where a second vote (taken I believe one week later if I am not mistaken about the rules) where they passed. The previous senate was doing this for EVERYTHING initially and then passing it on the second go around. I am not sure what they were doing that for, it seems pointless, but nevertheless that was what they were doing.

 

[nodoginnafight]

If we over-turned the 17th amendment to the Constitution and returned the appointment of Senators to be decided by the state, not the general public, you would understand the need for them much better. We'd also have a much better run givernment. Progressives messed up the way our givernment was designed by the founding fathers.

Having a state legislature appoint senators smacks of cronyism and elitism. The direct election of senators seems a lot more in keeping with the ideals of democracy to me.

But that's just MHO.

Well, the original concept was that the Senate would be an elite set of individuals that represented the interests of the states since they would be appointed by the governor or the legislature of the state. These individuals were the original "think tank" and sort of a balance to the Supreme Court in conceptualizing the finer points of Constitutional law. If you educate yourself about what the 17th amendment really did to this country, you'll see that the direct vote of Senators resulted in an unreal surge in federal spending. It resulted in lots of cronyism, lobbying and special interest pork being added to bills coming out of Congress.

"educate myself about what the 17th amendment really did to this country" ??????

In other words - either I agree with you are I'm "uneducated" ?????

Another one of THOSE posters ....

yaaaaaawwwwnnnn

wake me up if someone articulate shows up to make a point worthy of serious consideration ....

 

[Oddball]

If we over-turned the 17th amendment to the Constitution and returned the appointment of Senators to be decided by the state, not the general public, you would understand the need for them much better. We'd also have a much better run givernment. Progressives messed up the way our givernment was designed by the founding fathers.

Having a state legislature appoint senators smacks of cronyism and elitism. The direct election of senators seems a lot more in keeping with the ideals of democracy to me.

But that's just MHO.

Well, the original concept was that the Senate would be an elite set of individuals that represented the interests of the states since they would be appointed by the governor or the legislature of the state. These individuals were the original "think tank" and sort of a balance to the Supreme Court in conceptualizing the finer points of Constitutional law. If you educate yourself about what the 17th amendment really did to this country, you'll see that the direct vote of Senators resulted in an unreal surge in federal spending. It resulted in lots of cronyism, lobbying and special interest pork being added to bills coming out of Congress.

Not only that, but it has also basically resulted in Senators-for-life.

The political makeup of the states is far more fluid than the federal...There is absolutely no way that career turds like Jay Rockefeller, Carl Levin, Orrin Hatch or Juan McCain could just plant themselves in office, were they subject to re-authorization by the state legislatures and Governors.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Always be wary of people who want take decisions away from the voters and put it into the hands of power brokers.

No matter where they fall on the political spectrum.

 

[Oddball]

Always be wary of people who want take decisions away from the voters and put it into the hands of power brokers.

No matter where they fall on the political spectrum.

So, you don't think that making the power brokers spread their resources over 50 state houses, rather than just concentrating them on K Street, would reduce their influence?

Really?

 

[Sallow]

Always be wary of people who want take decisions away from the voters and put it into the hands of power brokers.

No matter where they fall on the political spectrum.

These are generally the same folks that call everyone communists or statists.

 

[Oddball]

Always be wary of people who want take decisions away from the voters and put it into the hands of power brokers.

No matter where they fall on the political spectrum.

These are generally the same folks that call everyone communists or statists.

Actually, in your case, we cut out the middleman and just run with "dumber than a sack of bricks".

 

[Sallow]

For the life of me, I can't understand why the Senate is even there. It's role could easily be assumed by the House, of which, the people have much more control.

The Senate is totally disfunctional, totally useless, and I think we would be much better off without the body.

It's sort of our "House of Lords".

But yeah..it kind of makes no sense. Anyone can be a Senator. Would make more sense if there were a requirement of some kind..like a master's degree.

You just hate our country and what it stands for.

Is there anything about our country that you like? excepting the free handouts.

You ain't fooling anyone chief.

The only parts of the Constitution you know are the 2 amendment and the 10th. And even those you screw up.

You'd have no problem with Evangelists setting up a theocracy here. So long as you get to have cool guns.

 

[Sallow]

Always be wary of people who want take decisions away from the voters and put it into the hands of power brokers.

No matter where they fall on the political spectrum.

These are generally the same folks that call everyone communists or statists.

Actually, in your case, we cut out the middleman and just run with "dumber than a sack of bricks".

Hmm..

What would Howard Rouark do?

 

[nodoginnafight]

Always be wary of people who want take decisions away from the voters and put it into the hands of power brokers.

No matter where they fall on the political spectrum.

These are generally the same folks that call everyone communists or statists.

Or start hurling personal insults when made to look stupid

 

[Oddball]

Always be wary of people who want take decisions away from the voters and put it into the hands of power brokers.

No matter where they fall on the political spectrum.

These are generally the same folks that call everyone communists or statists.

Or start hurling personal insults when made to look stupid

I merely don't take Shallow seriously anywhere anymore....He has earned it.

However, I asked you a serious question....Care to try and come up with an answer for it?

 

[thereisnospoon]

For the life of me, I can't understand why the Senate is even there. It's role could easily be assumed by the House, of which, the people have much more control.

The Senate is totally disfunctional, totally useless, and I think we would be much better off without the body.

The Senate should go back to the old system where the individual state governments would appoint 2 Senators to serve in DC. The rules also allowed for the recall of Senators at the discretion of an individual state.

 

[thereisnospoon]

This Senate demonstrates every day that we do not need them

HA! You lefties are just pissed off because the Senate is not permitting Obama's far left wing progressive agenda to be rammed down the throats of the people.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The existence of the US Senate demonstrates two things. One , we are NOT a pure democracy.
Two, without it we would be under the shadow of the 'tyranny of democracy".

 

[thereisnospoon]

The Senate today is the place that bills go to die

That cuts both ways.

 

[M14 Shooter]

For the life of me, I can't understand why the Senate is even there.

Apparently you failed your basic US government/civics classes.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

This Senate demonstrates every day that we do not need them

HA! You lefties are just pissed off because the Senate is not permitting Obama's far left wing progressive agenda to be rammed down the throats of the people.

yeah.....look at the crap healthcare program they already jammed down our throats during the first two years they had control of both houses and the presidency....

we want more of that kind of crap.....?