Do liberals like the idea of boot camp? Ideologically, it would seem to fit, right?

[JScott]

It is very specific. If you are asking for methodology, give us some ideas.

Are you helping fellow man by controlling his life?
Are you helping fellow man by letting him make his own decisions?
Are you helping fellow man by knocking down those that have climbed hard to get more out of life?
Are you helping fellow man by taking from some one else to give to someone with a sob story?
Are you helping fellow man by giving opportunities to do as well as they 'choose' to do?
What are your values?
What are your beliefs?
What do you think the job of the government is?
Do you think the government should be limited to its Constitutional duties?

You first.

 

[JakeStarkey]

It is very specific. If you are asking for methodology, give us some ideas.

Are you helping fellow man by controlling his life?
Are you helping fellow man by letting him make his own decisions?
Are you helping fellow man by knocking down those that have climbed hard to get more out of life?
Are you helping fellow man by taking from some one else to give to someone with a sob story?
Are you helping fellow man by giving opportunities to do as well as they 'choose' to do?
What are your values?
What are your beliefs?
What do you think the job of the government is?
Do you think the government should be limited to its Constitutional duties?

Great questions, logical4u. The issue of course is the last two questions. The SCOTUS has opined that the government's programs are constitutional. It's OK to disagree, of course, but that does not change reality.

 

[logical4u]

[
Do you think the government should be limited to its Constitutional duties?

Let's talk about that one. Are you one of those people that has fuckall idea regarding the fact that everything the big C lays out ISNT actually in the document? You realize that there are agencies and doctrines and caselaw that define, describe, and illuminate what we as a people have decided creates our country?

Sure, there's judical activism (on both sides)...but they created a check on that (whether we use it or not) called enacting laws. You think a judge created law from the bench that's not constitutional? Go get your congresswoman to delineate the law exactly how you like it.

It is so ******* annoying (but not surprising) that Christian bible literalists (not saying you're one) don't get that there's doctrine outside the Constitution that IS constitutional.

Lets try again. I asked if the libs would state their beliefs.
I do not need ANOTHER lecture on what you think mine are.
Would you care to state your values/beliefs in a clear, brief manner?

 

[logical4u]

It is very specific. If you are asking for methodology, give us some ideas.

Are you helping fellow man by controlling his life?
Are you helping fellow man by letting him make his own decisions?
Are you helping fellow man by knocking down those that have climbed hard to get more out of life?
Are you helping fellow man by taking from some one else to give to someone with a sob story?
Are you helping fellow man by giving opportunities to do as well as they 'choose' to do?
What are your values?
What are your beliefs?
What do you think the job of the government is?
Do you think the government should be limited to its Constitutional duties?

You first.

I have done that on other threads. I asked if libs could list their values/beliefs. Apparently, that is way too complicated for the libs on this thread.
Lets try again, why is it so hard for libs to list their values/beliefs?

 

[logical4u]

It is very specific. If you are asking for methodology, give us some ideas.

Are you helping fellow man by controlling his life?
Are you helping fellow man by letting him make his own decisions?
Are you helping fellow man by knocking down those that have climbed hard to get more out of life?
Are you helping fellow man by taking from some one else to give to someone with a sob story?
Are you helping fellow man by giving opportunities to do as well as they 'choose' to do?
What are your values?
What are your beliefs?
What do you think the job of the government is?
Do you think the government should be limited to its Constitutional duties?

Great questions, logical4u. The issue of course is the last two questions. The SCOTUS has opined that the government's programs are constitutional. It's OK to disagree, of course, but that does not change reality.

So.... your answer is: whatever the SCOTUS thinks is what you believe your values/beliefs are????

 

[Vanquish]

Dude. All I did was ask you for your personal stance - the same thing you asked of me.

Why is it so hard to respond?

btw (im not a lib...im a centrist)

 

[rikules]

I hope everyone takes this thread serious, it's not a troll, and it's to truly try to help me understand the mind of libralism. I dont understand why liberals despise the idea military boot camp. In fact, military boot camp is the embodiment of almost all liberal utopian qualities. Let me explain:

Guns are banned: Only the government, aka drill sgts, have access to them. The recruits are NOT allowed to have them unless the gov't allows it. They are told when, where, what kind, and ammo is strictly regulated. No one can just have their own personal gun, and no guns anywhere in living and eating areas. Liberal dream.

Everyone is absolute economically equal: There is no rich person. No poor person. All persons are paid the same in boot camp. Everyone's house is exactly the same. Everyone's clothing is exactly the same. Everyone's food and gym and transportation is exactly absolutely EQUAL. Any additional benefit is strictly regulated by the gov't (drill sgts).

No fossil fuel for transportation: Here is a wonderful liberal dream. In boot camp, the citizens (recruits) RUN everywhere. The range, the gym, the sleeping quarters, the cafeteria. The greenest of green energy: running.

All races are equal: In the famous words of R. Lee Ermy in Full Metal Jacket: "There are no dikes, nigg**s, whops, greasers in my corp.........here you are all equally worthless". Liberals want nothing more than for all races to be totally equal. Here it is in it's purest form!

Bad foods are banned: Yep. No soda. No happy meals. The meals are bland, and everyone gets fed the exact same, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity or economic class (remember economic class doesn't exist here). In FMJ, Gunnery Sgt Hartman even told his folks "You wont find fried chicken or watermelon in my mess hall!!". Wonderful. He has banned the foods that are bad for them!!!

Equal education: Everyone gets the exact same education. 100%. In boot camp, every person will be taught as an equal to the other. No exception.

Free healthcare: Yes!!! Free gov't funded healthcare for all!!!! The liberal dream!!! It's here also.

And then I thought of the best one. I notice liberals want to ban or regulate anything the percieve as bad for us. And what is more bad for us than death, right? And then I remembered the other legendary USMC instruction: "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DIE WITHOUT PERMISSION!"

Wow. The military is so good at banning what is bad for us, they have even banned dying without permission. Nancy Pelosi herself would be envious of this big gov't regulation!!!




So, I ask myself, why don't liberals advocate military style boot camp for society in general??? Is that not the closest representation to liberal utopia in our country?

- Gun ban.

most liberals (at least the ones I know) OPPOSE GUN BANS
they do, however, support, responsible gun regulation, education

many liberals own guns and enjoy various gun acvtivities (target shooting, hunting)


- Total equality in pay, shelter, food.

ridiculous.
we support FAIR PAYMENTS, LIVING WAGES
we oppose excessive greed


- Free healthcare.

or at least AFFORDABLE health care.

are you telling us that you want people to die because they can't afford decent health care?



- Green transportation.

what is wrong with responsible and healthy transportation?

do you actually enjoy polluting?
is it fun for you to destroy the environment?
is trashing the planet your constitutional right?


- Total racial equality.

are you saying that the white race is superior?

- Harsh and stifling government regulation of all aspects of daily life.

1. sorry..but this is BOTH insane and a damned lie.

2. like the conservative war on pot?
like conservative laws against polygamy and homosexuality?
like conservative laws against abortion? contraception? divorce?


- Bans on bad foods.

i repect your right to kill yourself by ingesting all the bad foods you want to but I also respect the governments' attempts to keep us alive longer by encouraging the ingestion of healthier foods



- Bans on things that are bad for us.

I will never understand the mind of people like you

you want to take pot smokers out back and shoot them
but you also want the right to smoke tobacco in the presence of my kids

you want to jail and maybe even execute people who smoke pot
but you want to kill my kids with bad foods and build nuclear power plants in my back yard and dump toxic waste in my kids playground...........

 

[Father Time]

I hope everyone takes this thread serious, it's not a troll, and it's to truly try to help me understand the mind of libralism. I dont understand why liberals despise the idea military boot camp. In fact, military boot camp is the embodiment of almost all liberal utopian qualities. Let me explain:

Guns are banned: Only the government, aka drill sgts, have access to them. The recruits are NOT allowed to have them unless the gov't allows it. They are told when, where, what kind, and ammo is strictly regulated. No one can just have their own personal gun, and no guns anywhere in living and eating areas. Liberal dream.

Everyone is absolute economically equal: There is no rich person. No poor person. All persons are paid the same in boot camp. Everyone's house is exactly the same. Everyone's clothing is exactly the same. Everyone's food and gym and transportation is exactly absolutely EQUAL. Any additional benefit is strictly regulated by the gov't (drill sgts).

No fossil fuel for transportation: Here is a wonderful liberal dream. In boot camp, the citizens (recruits) RUN everywhere. The range, the gym, the sleeping quarters, the cafeteria. The greenest of green energy: running.

All races are equal: In the famous words of R. Lee Ermy in Full Metal Jacket: "There are no dikes, nigg**s, whops, greasers in my corp.........here you are all equally worthless". Liberals want nothing more than for all races to be totally equal. Here it is in it's purest form!

Bad foods are banned: Yep. No soda. No happy meals. The meals are bland, and everyone gets fed the exact same, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity or economic class (remember economic class doesn't exist here). In FMJ, Gunnery Sgt Hartman even told his folks "You wont find fried chicken or watermelon in my mess hall!!". Wonderful. He has banned the foods that are bad for them!!!

Equal education: Everyone gets the exact same education. 100%. In boot camp, every person will be taught as an equal to the other. No exception.

Free healthcare: Yes!!! Free gov't funded healthcare for all!!!! The liberal dream!!! It's here also.

And then I thought of the best one. I notice liberals want to ban or regulate anything the percieve as bad for us. And what is more bad for us than death, right? And then I remembered the other legendary USMC instruction: "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DIE WITHOUT PERMISSION!"

Wow. The military is so good at banning what is bad for us, they have even banned dying without permission. Nancy Pelosi herself would be envious of this big gov't regulation!!!




So, I ask myself, why don't liberals advocate military style boot camp for society in general??? Is that not the closest representation to liberal utopia in our country?

- Gun ban.

most liberals (at least the ones I know) OPPOSE GUN BANS
they do, however, support, responsible gun regulation, education

many liberals own guns and enjoy various gun acvtivities (target shooting, hunting)

Most ones I know don't. Also you have to be more specific than responsible gun regulation. The NRA and the Brady campaign probably both consider their ideas for gun regulation responsible.

- Free healthcare.

or at least AFFORDABLE health care.

are you telling us that you want people to die because they can't afford decent health care?

That's a loaded question if I ever saw one.

- Green transportation.

what is wrong with responsible and healthy transportation?

do you actually enjoy polluting?
is it fun for you to destroy the environment?
is trashing the planet your constitutional right?

Again loaded questions, some people do enjoy those gas guzzlers and not because they pollute.

- Total racial equality.

are you saying that the white race is superior?

I'm guessing he's talking about forced equality in terms of outcome, or stuff like affirmative action.

- Bans on things that are bad for us.

I will never understand the mind of people like you

you want to take pot smokers out back and shoot them
but you also want the right to smoke tobacco in the presence of my kids

you want to jail and maybe even execute people who smoke pot

I know you're exaggerating but no one's suggesting executing potheads.

but you want to kill my kids with bad foods and build nuclear power plants in my back yard and dump toxic waste in my kids playground...........

At the risk of derailment nuclear power plants really aren't all that dangerous. Also they are green energy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Are you helping fellow man by controlling his life?
Are you helping fellow man by letting him make his own decisions?
Are you helping fellow man by knocking down those that have climbed hard to get more out of life?
Are you helping fellow man by taking from some one else to give to someone with a sob story?
Are you helping fellow man by giving opportunities to do as well as they 'choose' to do?
What are your values?
What are your beliefs?
What do you think the job of the government is?
Do you think the government should be limited to its Constitutional duties?

Great questions, logical4u. The issue of course is the last two questions. The SCOTUS has opined that the government's programs are constitutional. It's OK to disagree, of course, but that does not change reality.

So.... your answer is: whatever the SCOTUS thinks is what you believe your values/beliefs are????

What a silly interpretation by you of what I believe morally and what I value.

I said we need to keep reality in mind. SCOTUS says the programs are legal. OK, that is true. Now can you build a majority to change some of those programs you don't like. Will you identify some of them, please?

 

[Vanquish]

I hope everyone takes this thread serious, it's not a troll, and it's to truly try to help me understand the mind of libralism. I dont understand why liberals despise the idea military boot camp. In fact, military boot camp is the embodiment of almost all liberal utopian qualities. Let me explain:

Guns are banned: Only the government, aka drill sgts, have access to them. The recruits are NOT allowed to have them unless the gov't allows it. They are told when, where, what kind, and ammo is strictly regulated. No one can just have their own personal gun, and no guns anywhere in living and eating areas. Liberal dream.

Everyone is absolute economically equal: There is no rich person. No poor person. All persons are paid the same in boot camp. Everyone's house is exactly the same. Everyone's clothing is exactly the same. Everyone's food and gym and transportation is exactly absolutely EQUAL. Any additional benefit is strictly regulated by the gov't (drill sgts).

No fossil fuel for transportation: Here is a wonderful liberal dream. In boot camp, the citizens (recruits) RUN everywhere. The range, the gym, the sleeping quarters, the cafeteria. The greenest of green energy: running.

All races are equal: In the famous words of R. Lee Ermy in Full Metal Jacket: "There are no dikes, nigg**s, whops, greasers in my corp.........here you are all equally worthless". Liberals want nothing more than for all races to be totally equal. Here it is in it's purest form!

Bad foods are banned: Yep. No soda. No happy meals. The meals are bland, and everyone gets fed the exact same, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity or economic class (remember economic class doesn't exist here). In FMJ, Gunnery Sgt Hartman even told his folks "You wont find fried chicken or watermelon in my mess hall!!". Wonderful. He has banned the foods that are bad for them!!!

Equal education: Everyone gets the exact same education. 100%. In boot camp, every person will be taught as an equal to the other. No exception.

Free healthcare: Yes!!! Free gov't funded healthcare for all!!!! The liberal dream!!! It's here also.

And then I thought of the best one. I notice liberals want to ban or regulate anything the percieve as bad for us. And what is more bad for us than death, right? And then I remembered the other legendary USMC instruction: "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DIE WITHOUT PERMISSION!"

Wow. The military is so good at banning what is bad for us, they have even banned dying without permission. Nancy Pelosi herself would be envious of this big gov't regulation!!!




So, I ask myself, why don't liberals advocate military style boot camp for society in general??? Is that not the closest representation to liberal utopia in our country?

- Gun ban.

most liberals (at least the ones I know) OPPOSE GUN BANS
they do, however, support, responsible gun regulation, education

many liberals own guns and enjoy various gun acvtivities (target shooting, hunting)

Most ones I know don't. Also you have to be more specific than responsible gun regulation. The NRA and the Brady campaign probably both consider their ideas for gun regulation responsible.



That's a loaded question if I ever saw one.



Again loaded questions, some people do enjoy those gas guzzlers and not because they pollute.



I'm guessing he's talking about forced equality in terms of outcome, or stuff like affirmative action.

- Bans on things that are bad for us.

I will never understand the mind of people like you

you want to take pot smokers out back and shoot them
but you also want the right to smoke tobacco in the presence of my kids

you want to jail and maybe even execute people who smoke pot

I know you're exaggerating but no one's suggesting executing potheads.

but you want to kill my kids with bad foods and build nuclear power plants in my back yard and dump toxic waste in my kids playground...........

At the risk of derailment nuclear power plants really aren't all that dangerous. Also they are green energy.

So you classify questions as loaded then move on. Interesting.

 

[logical4u]

Great questions, logical4u. The issue of course is the last two questions. The SCOTUS has opined that the government's programs are constitutional. It's OK to disagree, of course, but that does not change reality.

So.... your answer is: whatever the SCOTUS thinks is what you believe your values/beliefs are????

What a silly interpretation by you of what I believe morally and what I value.

I said we need to keep reality in mind. SCOTUS says the programs are legal. OK, that is true. Now can you build a majority to change some of those programs you don't like. Will you identify some of them, please?

Keep dodging.....

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are the one dodging, logical4u. What programs do you believe are unconstitutional and how we can change them? Please don't dodge, because you simply p'wn yourself when you do.

 

[logical4u]

Dude. All I did was ask you for your personal stance - the same thing you asked of me.

Why is it so hard to respond?

btw (im not a lib...im a centrist)

Why won't you respond...I asked you first. I'll show you mine, if you show me yours

 

[JakeStarkey]

I told you that I believe SCOTUS said they were legal. Nothing anyone on this board has posted in the last year has given any compelling arguments why SCOTUS was wrong.

 

[logical4u]

You are the one dodging, logical4u. What programs do you believe are unconstitutional and how we can change them? Please don't dodge, because you simply p'wn yourself when you do.

I gave you a simple task, Jakey. List your values.
You gave me a vague: I want world peace response.
I requested you were more specific.
Now we are going on over two pages of dodges, with only one person that even began to say what their values/beliefs were (but they added a whole bunch of "qualifiers"). Reach down, grab 'em, and make a statement. You are not afraid to tell others what they think, tell us where your values and beliefs are. Come on, be a big boy.

 

[logical4u]

I told you that I believe SCOTUS said they were legal. Nothing anyone on this board has posted in the last year has given any compelling arguments why SCOTUS was wrong.

Okay, I think we have that settled, you believe whatever the SCOTUS believes. That was good. Now can you tell me what YOU believe?

 

[JakeStarkey]

I said what SCOTUS has opined is our reality today.

You don't agree. Who cares?

Fail on your part.

 

[Vanquish]

Are you helping fellow man by controlling his life?

Yes and No. Somethings should be controlled, while others shouldnt. If there were no laws, the world would descend into anarchy. Controlled "too much" freedom would be stifled. That's the great thing about being able to vote on laws and vote for people who get to represent us. If you dont like the controls...change them.

Are you helping fellow man by letting him make his own decisions?
See answer to question #1. Some idiots make really stupid decisions. The problem is everyone thinks that doesnt apply to them. We're all idiots sometimes.

Are you helping fellow man by knocking down those that have climbed hard to get more out of life?

The better question is, should people be forced to give to help others or should we rely on charity alone? My answer is yes, people should be compelled to give to a certain extent. I'd love to believe that society could survive based on the charity of others, but it just doesnt. The history of the world is that people with money and power use their money and power to keep their money and power. They abuse their power.

Do I think that this power should extend infinitely to become a system of righting every financial inequality? Of course not. If you work and earn it you should get to keep it - HOWEVER - if you want to be a part of a country that does things for the common good - you're going to have to contribute. When insurance companies stack the system in their favor - using their money and influence to screw over "the little guy" by buying off legislators and leverage contracts in ways that would make Machiavelli squirm...yeah there needs to be some FORCED equity. (I'm a lawyer and see it every day)

Are you helping fellow man by taking from some one else to give to someone with a sob story?

Criminals shouldnt get out of jail because they had a hard childhood, but a lot of times people fall into a pit that WASNT of their own making and need help. You may not realize it, but helping them, helps all of us. And sometimes it takes the government to do it.

Imagine a United States where the government had no role in helping the downtrodden. Over time, the pace of poverty would outmatch the pace of charity. The country basically becomes a 3rd world nation and there's not enough money or opportunities to ever bring the country back. That's what would happen if the only help that existed was private charity.

Are you helping fellow man by giving opportunities to do as well as they 'choose' to do?

Not sure what you mean by this. If you're asking whether I support lazy bums who want to live in filth and squalor and not try to help themselves...absolutely not. If you're asking whether I think it's right to support poverty-level families who can't otherwise help themselves? Absolutely.

What are your values/ beliefs?
I believe in honest and fair dealing.
I believe in helping people up and sometimes helping them out.
I believe in hard work.
I believe in upholding the Constitution.
I believe in our legislature.
I believe that our court system is correctly designed and implemented, though not perfect.
I believe in equality of all races, creeds, and sexual perversions.
I believe the children are our future (sorry had to be done)

I believe that America has the best form of government on the planet...but it doesnt have 100% of all the best answers on every question.

I believe our military should be strong...but not used for nation building. Personal responsibility requires that citizens of foreign countries should spend THEIR OWN dime to rebuild their country. We can be proactive and not reactive, but we should only do it sparingly - when the writing's already on the wall.

I believe in gun rights, ending abortion, and freedom of speech.
I believe in fiscal responsibiity...but that the real world requires exceptions to this rule.

I believe in protecting my property and my family with reasonable force. Sometimes that means a bullet to the head. Them's the breaks.

I believe in the right to life of the unborn - I also believe that the death penalty is wrong and terribly implemented.

I believe in term limits - even though it's not in the Constitution. We've proven we're too lazy as a country to vote the bums out. Let's put a mechanism in to thwart our own laziness.


What do you think the job of the government is?

1. Militarily protect the nation internally and outwardly, but rendition and torture are out of the question - even for non-citizens. Just because you can **** people up doesn't mean you SHOULD. The founders said rights are INALIENABLE. Everyone on the planet has them.

2. Execute a fair judicial system - no judicial activism, but realize that there's more valid law than JUST the Constitution. That being said, you suckers better uphold that damn document. Interpretation wise, I'd prefer you to be textualists (not originalists or living constitutionalists - words have an ebb and flow that the courts take into account. Case law changes and evolves with the times, yet is primarily the text on the page.)

3. Execute a fair legislature that listens to everyone (not just people with money) encourages business (both big and small), and doesn't turn public service into a welfare check. I dont want politicians getting rich with a federal or state job. I want them compensated adequately, but not to the point of it being a "cush job".

4. An executive branch that leads with dignity - and improves the nation by advancing the national debate/national laws. A president who is well-versed in foreign policy AND domestic economic matters. Doesn't have to be the smartest guy in the room, but is damn smart and knows how to surround himself with even smarter specialists.

5. Use the power of taxation sparingly and only for what's necessary for our country's ultimate survival. That being said, my definition of survival includes regulatory agencies and education. Since money and politics have completely fucked up our medical system in the United States (yes, it's great for most, but unfair and unbalanced for a vast group as well), the government may be the only solution to fix it...since the insurance and medical industries can't police themselves.

6. Policing our borders stalwartly. There's the right way to get in the country. Use it. Otherwise you're a criminal. That being said, corrupt business needs to be prosecuted just as strongly for not giving people a living wage for a day's work.

Do you think the government should be limited to its Constitutional duties?

That depends on what you mean. Do I think that the Constitution should be upheld. Absolutely. Do I recognize that there are constitutional doctrines that aren't in that document - doctrines that are perfectly valid, yet not enumerated? Absolutely.


that's it for now. there's a lot more, but I think you get the gist.

 

[logical4u]

I said what SCOTUS has opined is our reality today.

You don't agree. Who cares?

Fail on your part.

I did not ask what "our reality today" is. I asked for your beliefs/values. Not someone else's, not some author of tens of books that describes your values perfectly, I asked you to list your beliefs. The fact that you haven't makes me wonder if you have any or you just go along with anyone you perceive to be "intellegent".
Do you know how you, Jakey, feels? Do you know what you, Jakey values? Do you know what you, Jakey, believes?
I never thought this would be such a tough question for libs, but apparently, it is like quantum physics to them.

No wonder they fall for anything, they don't know what they "stand" for.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I don't give a crap what you asked, because I am not bound by your question, logical4u.

I answered responsibily. You are not an expert on the Constitution, period. Your internet opinion means absolutely nothing until you bring forth evidence.

You are a moron if you think you are responsibly responding here.