Do Conservatives lack Freewill

[Not2BSubjugated]

isn't it wonderful, more hate for people from the left...

the left believe they are the most enlightened people to walk the earth

'Hate?' I hear that word used often by conservatives, do you ever wonder why?

"So consider: elderly people of limited means in the United States who are dependent on Medicare for their basic well-being—there are tens of millions of them—are rather clearly “vulnerable people.” Why, then, is it not equally problematic when a powerful congressman, Representative Paul Ryan of Wisconsin, advocates effectively eliminating the program that benefits these vulnerable people, indeed, keeps them alive? “Hatred,” after all, is not the issue as Waldron says, and no one, I assume, thinks Rep. Ryan “hates” the elderly or the poor. He may simply be stupid, or in thrall to an ideology, or defective in empathetic capacity, or beholden to special interests; whatever the explanation, it is clear that his proposals, if enacted, would eventually result in elderly people in need being unable to afford essential healthcare." Brian Leiter review of 'The Harm in Hate Speech' by Jeremy Waldron, Waldron on the Regulation of Hate Speech by Brian Leiter :: SSRN

This quote you've got here is a perfect example of not bothering to address an argument, and in stead opting to assume that the messenger of said argument is somehow defective and therefore the argument isn't worthy of consideration. This, while a common argument technique, is not actually a logical argument.

For the sake of this argument, we'll take everything at face value as he's written it. Medicare protects vulnerable people and Paul Ryan wants to eliminate the program. Rather than take an honest look at the reasons Ryan has given for wanting to do so, he tosses out a list of potential defects, "Maybe he's stupid, in thrall to an ideology (which, though the in thrall bit makes it sound hypnotic and mindless, can be said about anyone who wants anything done politically. Ultimately anything you could want on a societal scale is based on your values and your values are based on your ideology, whatever that might be. The idea that people should pay into Medicare to keep other people alive is also based on ideology ), or defective in empathetic capacity, or beholden to special interests. . . "

None of those potential reasons have anything to do with Ryan's actual argument. They're simply convenient excuses to disregard the argument completely. On top of that, they carry that ridiculously arrogant assumption that anyone who would disagree with the moral value that Medicare must be perpetuated is either stupid, emotionally broken, or paid off.

Does this sound familiar?

If liberals assume that every idea that challenges their most closely held morals must be rooted in stupidity, sociopathy, or blatant dishonesty, it shows an unwillingness to adapt or change. Do liberals lack free will?

Funny, given your OP, that you would post this nonsense.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Let me get this straight ... the party of (supposed) diversity, tolerance, choice believes that those who do not believe exactly as they do are mentally defective.

<blink, blink>

Leftism at its finest!

 

[dblack]

Is it possible to lack freewill: the basic idea that conscious analysis guides your decisions. I think it is certainly worth our consideration. It may just be that conservatives lack the capacity, both genetically and culturally to exhibit freewill. This interplay of genes and culture make them easily susceptible to the influence of ideas that oppose change or revision. Most cognitive processes never reach consciousness, thus if you are conservative, thought would require an awareness you are not capable of. Given the widespread power of their media today, you witness an opposition to change repeated over and over again. No rational discussion is possible when you have the answer already. The final question becomes, are conservatives then a threat to a dynamic, open, democratic society?

See 'The Rhetoric of Reaction: Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy' Albert O. Hirschman

Well, you're equivocating on the term 'conservative'. The points you make apply a conservative personality trait, not necessarily the political leaning. My s.o. is a traditional Democrat and far more personally conservative than I am, even though I'm often labeled 'far right' politically (often labeled radical left-wing too, so go figure).

To answer you question, yeah, conservatives can be a threat to open, democratic society. Just don't try to conflate those kinds of 'conservatives' with the various political ideologies.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Is it possible to lack freewill: the basic idea that conscious analysis guides your decisions. I think it is certainly worth our consideration. It may just be that conservatives lack the capacity, both genetically and culturally to exhibit freewill. This interplay of genes and culture make them easily susceptible to the influence of ideas that oppose change or revision. Most cognitive processes never reach consciousness, thus if you are conservative, thought would require an awareness you are not capable of. Given the widespread power of their media today, you witness an opposition to change repeated over and over again. No rational discussion is possible when you have the answer already. The final question becomes, are conservatives then a threat to a dynamic, open, democratic society?

See 'The Rhetoric of Reaction: Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy' Albert O. Hirschman

Well, you're equivocating on the term 'conservative'. The points you make apply a conservative personality trait, not necessarily the political leaning. My s.o. is a traditional Democrat and far more personally conservative than I am, even though I'm often labeled 'far right' politically (often labeled radical left-wing too, so go figure).

To answer you question, yeah, conservatives can be a threat to open, democratic society. Just don't try to conflate those kinds of 'conservatives' with the various political ideologies.

Beautifully put.

 

[editec]

Does an ameoba have free will just because it moves away from that which it does not like and toward that which it does like?

Over the years I have grown increasingly dubious of the entire concept of "free will".

Personally I think we confuse the fact that we can make choices in the world with the idea that we are free to choose.

Stop and think about it....if we have to choose that means that we are not entirely free and our vaulted WILL does not negate the fact that the world IMPOSES itself upon us.

And not to make too much about the issue but our BRAINS are no less subject to the slings and arrows of outragous fortune than we are.

How much freewill do you suppose it takes to maintain a long term depressive state?

Free will?

I don't believe it exists..randomness exists, and that feel a lot like free will when you're the one riding that event.

 

[daveman]

Whenever conservative republicans mention freedom think of those ten hands. The Regressive Antidote - If Conservatism Is The Ideology of Freedom, I'm The Queen of England

What in the world ever convinced you you're an intelligent person?

Convinced? Did I say that? Maybe my ideas are really dumb, your task is to prove that.

You wouldn't accept such proof.

 

[Trajan]

My mention of the Hirschman's book was for historical reasons, Hirschman does criticize contemporary liberals for the same repetitive sloganism and solutions. But conservatives have practiced ostrich thinking for three hundred years. The lack of freewill exhibited by conservatives is evident in our congress and especially in their media channels. My point is on another level than even the historical, it is more about their culture. Today when you listen to any conservative talking head or representative, they all say the same things. The same things. How is that possible if they are conscious, freedom loving individuals, it's not possible. It would only be possible if some receiver were implanted in their head. That hopefully is not the case so one must look to their culture. Sometimes though labels fit poorly, picking and choosing a single exception as some noted above, does not prove much. I have posted several broad satiric comments on the right, it is only the right's puppet like behavior that allows that to be possible. My signature contains two. Conservatives can deny reality but their constant repeating of the same slogans, the same empty ideas, shows clearly no freewill is present. Remember the ten hands rising, if you doubt that.

"The central conservative truth is that it is culture, not politics, that determines the success of a society.

The central liberal truth is that politics can change a culture and save it from itself. "

and there ya go, compliments of DPM.

 

[midcan5]

Not2BSubjugated, Agnostic libertarian? So you're unsure libertarianism exists? That's kinda funny. You do a wonderful job of assigning great insight and analysis to your potential answer should you answer. Is that another funny?

What argument would you be addressing when someone's calls this hate? You need to put on your thinking cap. Conservatives use the word hate often, is there a need to say more? You should ask them why. Could it be... nah...

Brian Leiter's list is valid without discussing what other reason Ryan may have for screwing needy people. If you think there is a valid reason for hurting people in need [given the resources of this nation] go for it. Since you agree with Ryan and possess great explanatory skill, you're on. But I'd like you to explain that in a real world situation to the people too. I know that's asking too much. You're a lot of fun to read. See even liberals laugh.


Dblack, I meant it as political. The term loses meaning outside politics for all of us are a blend in varying degrees. You should know by now I exaggerate, exaggeration often gets us to a place normal reason misses. But you agree, I think. lol


Daveman, Proof is still in your corner. Does it matter to you what I think. Prove it to others.


Trajan, who is dpm? You're on the right track but you forget culture is full of politics. You cannot hide from politics unless you move to an isolated island cave by yourself. 'Custom' guides us, we could say culture, you must admit blacks, gays, and women are treated differently today - somethings do change, hard as it is. It is politics that pushes forward or backward till change seems like custom or if you prefer culture. Politics isn't simply government, it is people acting in that vague commons too. If you think culture is some fixed standard you need to define it - but that way lay landmines.

 

[daveman]

Daveman, Proof is still in your corner. Does it matter to you what I think. Prove it to others.

I've got nothing to prove. YOU made an assertion -- YOU back it up. I'm not doing your homework for you, boy.

 

[hortysir]

This on the heels of mandating an entire country do something that most don't feel they should have to do........





ok

 

[daveman]

This on the heels of mandating an entire country do something that most don't feel they should have to do........





ok

When fascism comes to America, it will be carrying a protest sign and screeching, "It's for the CHILDREN!!"

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Not2BSubjugated, Agnostic libertarian? So you're unsure libertarianism exists? That's kinda funny. You do a wonderful job of assigning great insight and analysis to your potential answer should you answer. Is that another funny?

What argument would you be addressing when someone's calls this hate? You need to put on your thinking cap. Conservatives use the word hate often, is there a need to say more? You should ask them why. Could it be... nah...

Brian Leiter's list is valid without discussing what other reason Ryan may have for screwing needy people. If you think there is a valid reason for hurting people in need [given the resources of this nation] go for it. Since you agree with Ryan and possess great explanatory skill, you're on. But I'd like you to explain that in a real world situation to the people too. I know that's asking too much. You're a lot of fun to read. See even liberals laugh.


Dblack, I meant it as political. The term loses meaning outside politics for all of us are a blend in varying degrees. You should know by now I exaggerate, exaggeration often gets us to a place normal reason misses. But you agree, I think. lol


Daveman, Proof is still in your corner. Does it matter to you what I think. Prove it to others.


Trajan, who is dpm? You're on the right track but you forget culture is full of politics. You cannot hide from politics unless you move to an isolated island cave by yourself. 'Custom' guides us, we could say culture, you must admit blacks, gays, and women are treated differently today - somethings do change, hard as it is. It is politics that pushes forward or backward till change seems like custom or if you prefer culture. Politics isn't simply government, it is people acting in that vague commons too. If you think culture is some fixed standard you need to define it - but that way lay landmines.

In all fairness, everyone uses the word hate often. Liberals are no less full of hate and vitriol than conservatives in my experience, though they're often portrayed that way because their politics is partially centered around trying to eliminate hate as it relates to racial and sexual minorities. There is, believe it or not, a difference between subscribing to the politics of equality and not being hateful.

And that point segues neatly into addressing that there are, indeed, reasons one might want to end medicare that aren't centered around stupidity, hate, or mental defects. I can't speak directly for Paul Ryan, but a reason that a lot of people have a problem with medicare and programs like it is that, in order to pay for it, the government taxes people. If someone doesn't give two shits about the elderly or needy (which is their right) they can't opt out of part of their taxes. The idea that if someone can't pay for their medical care, it's the responsibility of anyone who is able to pitch in and take care of the cost, once again, is a moral ideal. There's no hard fact that we are compelled to do so on some deeper, universal level. Therefore, if someone else doesn't feel that the government should be forcing them to help shoulder the cost of other peoples' medical care, that opinion is as valid as the opinion that we owe it to each other to pay for each other's medical bills. Get it? They're both moral values.

What your dude was arguing is that someone with a different arrangement of moral values could only conceivably have that different set of moral standards by way of stupidity or mental/emotional dysfunction. So arrogant you almost wanna smack him.

This is no different than Christians saying that if you don't believe the bible you're an idiot.

It's also no different than the conservatives who automatically disregard viewpoints that conflict with theirs, which is usually regarding opinions based in morality. That's why it's incredibly hypocritical of you to be quoting this guy in particular on this post in particular.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Is it possible to lack freewill: the basic idea that conscious analysis guides your decisions. I think it is certainly worth our consideration. It may just be that conservatives lack the capacity, both genetically and culturally to exhibit freewill. This interplay of genes and culture make them easily susceptible to the influence of ideas that oppose change or revision. Most cognitive processes never reach consciousness, thus if you are conservative, thought would require an awareness you are not capable of. Given the widespread power of their media today, you witness an opposition to change repeated over and over again. No rational discussion is possible when you have the answer already. The final question becomes, are conservatives then a threat to a dynamic, open, democratic society?

See 'The Rhetoric of Reaction: Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy' Albert O. Hirschman

Every time I wonder about if humanity has reached the depths of stupidity you make a post and assure me that it can be worse.

 

[midcan5]

Not2BSubjugated, I am a bit older - I assume than you - and until republicans and conservatives started using it, I cannot say it was in common usage. There were of course racist and homophobic 'hate,' but that was finally addressed by our judicial system. Please find us an example of a liberal using the word hate.

Healthcare like medicare, medicaid, minimum wage, child labor laws, and Social Security etc will one day be the right thing to do for most Americans. Corporate think tanks supported by the wealthy will always fight these things that argue for fairness, that may be a law of the universe, one of those givens. Just as there are still racist and homophobes and conspiracy nuts, there will be those whose moral compass is tilted off center. It is fascinating why this persists, for the interested check out 'Agnotology.'

Quantum Windbag, you always say the nicest things, thanks.

Whenever republicans mention 'freedom' think of those ten hands.

 

[daveman]

Not2BSubjugated, I am a bit older - I assume than you - and until republicans and conservatives started using it, I cannot say it was in common usage. There were of course racist and homophobic 'hate,' but that was finally addressed by our judicial system. Please find us an example of a liberal using the word hate.

Howard Dean - Former governor, head of DNC: I hate Republicans and everything they stand for.​

Plenty more liberal hate speech here: Violent Liberal Hate Rhetoric: Fifteen Quotes - John Hawkins - Page full

 

[rdean]

They have free will but they have been brainwashed into believing the most fantastic and unbelievable things. And when you give examples, USMB Republicans say, "That's not what I believe in", but clearly the majority of the party does.

 

[Bluedog]

Is it possible to lack freewill: the basic idea that conscious analysis guides your decisions. I think it is certainly worth our consideration. It may just be that conservatives lack the capacity, both genetically and culturally to exhibit freewill. This interplay of genes and culture make them easily susceptible to the influence of ideas that oppose change or revision. Most cognitive processes never reach consciousness, thus if you are conservative, thought would require an awareness you are not capable of. Given the widespread power of their media today, you witness an opposition to change repeated over and over again. No rational discussion is possible when you have the answer already. The final question becomes, are conservatives then a threat to a dynamic, open, democratic society?

See 'The Rhetoric of Reaction: Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy' Albert O. Hirschman

Nothing like the smell of broadbrush in the morning.

 

[midcan5]

Addendum.

Since ninety five percent of internet debate is either ad hominem or the more childish, 'no, you are,' I want to expand the premise. American conservatives live in a world in which every change is seen as an attack on their personal freedom, on the free market, or on capitalism itself. Hidden behind every change is socialism, environmentalism, or a new world order. This conspiratorial thinking is seen in every complex issue since - jeez, I really don't know - but I'll start with FDR and the New Deal. Proof that conservative lack freewill can be seen in a vast number of things in which you already know their position. Here are a few, some are simple, some complex: Welfare, pollution/acid rain, tobacco, anthropogenic warming, evolution, sex education, food stamps, the ACA, public education, taxes, and of course government itself when it challenges these three threatened symbols. How this came about is a process that started at the beginning of the last century with advertising and propaganda. Today, as K Street and the many think tanks demonstrate, it has grown to manage the minds of the right, even influencing those who can still stand back and attempt objectivity. Remember the ten hands.

 

[daveman]

They have free will but they have been brainwashed into believing the most fantastic and unbelievable things. And when you give examples, USMB Republicans say, "That's not what I believe in", but clearly the majority of the party does.

Fantastic and unbelievable things?

"This was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow, and our planet began to heal."

“First of all, if you've got health insurance, you like your doctors, you like your plan, you can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan. Nobody is talking about taking that away from you.”

“I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits — either now or in the future.”

“The NSA is not abusing its power.”

“I said Benghazi was a terrorist attack from the beginning.”

“The foreign intelligence Surveillance court is transparent.”

“First of all, I didn't set a red line. The world set a red line.”

"We began by passing a Recovery Act that has already saved or created over 150,000 jobs.”

"I had a uncle who was one of the, who was part of the first American troops to go into Auschwitz and liberate the concentration camps."

Oh, wait -- it's not conservatives who believe those fantastic and unbelievable things.

 

[daveman]

Addendum.

Since ninety five percent of internet debate is either ad hominem or the more childish, 'no, you are,' I want to expand the premise. American conservatives live in a world in which every change is seen as an attack on their personal freedom, on the free market, or on capitalism itself. Hidden behind every change is socialism, environmentalism, or a new world order. This conspiratorial thinking is seen in every complex issue since - jeez, I really don't know - but I'll start with FDR and the New Deal. Proof that conservative lack freewill can be seen in a vast number of things in which you already know their position. Here are a few, some are simple, some complex: Welfare, pollution/acid rain, tobacco, anthropogenic warming, evolution, sex education, food stamps, the ACA, public education, taxes, and of course government itself when it challenges these three threatened symbols. How this came about is a process that started at the beginning of the last century with advertising and propaganda. Today, as K Street and the many think tanks demonstrate, it has grown to manage the minds of the right, even influencing those who can still stand back and attempt objectivity. Remember the ten hands.

You ever going to get around to proving your claim? Mindlessly repeating the opinion that was handed to you is not proof.