keepitreal
Platinum Member
And instead of spending money on basics for them,
let’s get basics for our own
DNA testing reveals a THIRD of migrants faked family relationship with children to claim asylum
- Thread starter Lovebears65
- Start date
let’s get basics for our own
Ray From Cleveland
Diamond Member
- Aug 16, 2015
- 97,215
- 37,460
- 2,290
The best use for our money is to use it to keep those people out of here. Then we wouldn't be having bed and toothbrush problems. If you want to take care of the rest of the world, fine. There are plenty of charities out there and you can give YOUR money to any group that takes care of people in the selected country of your choice.
OldLady
Diamond Member
- Nov 16, 2015
- 69,568
- 19,616
- 2,220
If it's 30% of a suspected group and ICE turns out to be pretty good at guessing, that might make it 10 or 15% of ALL the kids being dragged across the border...
How did you come up with 10-15% based on THAT reasoning? That is called sheer pulling it out of your ass, Flacaltenn. Why stop there? Just make it 20%, 30%, why don't you, as long as you're making shit up.
Those same ICE agents that have fingered 1/3 of suspected "fakers" have also said over and over that it is a very small number of the cases they see each day. Because there has been such a lot of press about the border in general and the right has been so determined to turn this into a huge "child trafficking" problem, the government no doubt feels obligated to look at it more carefully.
If any children are being brought in by folks who are "renting" them, I hope there are really stiff penalties for those scum buckets and that somehow those kids are protected from further exploitation. It is not the overwhelming problem that some people are making it though, in order to sell their mag or get your vote.
Dragonlady
Designing Woman
The best use of your money is to go to their home countries and rid those countries of the narco terrorists, and to start fighting the climate change driving the drought. But you aren't smart enough to do that. You'll continue to support building a useless wall, and closing the border, but you won't do anything about the root causes of this migration.
gallantwarrior
Gold Member
They should have packed their tooth brushes before they left home. Oh, wait! Dental hygiene is not a thing where they come from. Why should we change that now? Send 'em all back, let them get their blankies, clothes, personal hygiene supplies there. I'm so sick of footing the bill for someone else's shit.
gallantwarrior
Gold Member
How about getting them tickets back to their places of origin. A one-way ticket cannot possible cost as much as lifelong support.
Dragonlady
Designing Woman
No it's not. What's cheaper is ending the narco terrorist gangs in their home countries. It not only stops the refugee problem, it substantially reduced drug enforcement costs at home. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It's cheaper to stop the drugs from leaving Central America, than it is to clean up the mess they make when they get to the States.
gallantwarrior
Gold Member
Can I get an AMEN! brother.
gallantwarrior
Gold Member
I do agree that stopping the drugs there, before they get up here, is a good idea. But how do we do that without using military or police forces on foreign soil? There are lots of people who feel we should just let other countries be and not interfere.
Ray From Cleveland
Diamond Member
- Aug 16, 2015
- 97,215
- 37,460
- 2,290
Oh, so climate change is doing it now.
You say I'm not smart enough, and then tell me we should control the climate? Oh the irony.
Unless we start a war with these countries, we would need their request for aid in fighting these drug lords and terrorists. I've never seen any such request because their governments are in bed with the bad guys.
flacaltenn
Diamond Member
How come you DON'T SEEM to want to know if CPB and ICE are good guessers or not? The number is certainly VERY significant.. Probably 2 million refugees entering this year.. 2% of the "family" units would be an outrageous amount of crime and deception....
The 10% came from the fact that CPB and ICE only process or apprehend less than 1/2 of the border crossers. Because the number crossing illegally and NOT intercepted is higher then the number STOPPED and detained at the checkpoints..,.
So it's very logical that the cartel coyotes renting out these kids are bringing them in UNAPPREHENDED and undetained by crossing them illegally... Why pay $2000 to a cartel coyote to be interrogated about the kid at a checkpoint???
CPB has seen SEVERAL of these kids used MULTIPLE TIMES as "get in free" cards...
I'm not reading it that way at all Flac. What I am reading is that WHEN they suspect fraud, they seperate them - and out of that subgroup, 30% are found to have indeed committed that fraud. That also means out of that subgroup - 70% did not commit fraud. What that tells me is, first - the agents who are trained (unlike the politicians supporting 100% seperation) to spot this are doing a pretty good job. What it does NOT say is the 30 percent of all migrants are trafficking kids. It says 30% of those suspected of trafficking (a subgroup) are indeed trafficking.
Secondly, you say "they should have been doing this years ago"...well, the short answer is: they have. I don't know about DNA tests because that is a relatively new technology to use at the border, but they have for years seperated migrants suspected of trafficking or not being related to the kids they have in tow. And - frankly, the Dems you seem to be blaming for this and the public in general, have long supported this practice. No one wants to see child trafficking.
What does kind of bother me is this...(and it should bother you as well):
Separating families without any suspician of trafficking. That policy was NOT undertaken as a means of reducing trafficking, THAT excuse was an after thought. The reasons for seperation were clearly articulated by Trump and members of his Administration and those reasons were to provide deterrence to would be immigrants and asylum seekers.
Transcript: White House Chief Of Staff John Kelly's Interview With NPR
The results of these ongoing policies (which, despite the faux claims made by the right) are a big part what is producing the humanitarian nightmare at the border now and in that sense it is a self made crisis. Look at Border Apprehensions:
They are going up, but they are still not up to the level under Obama and all of it is a far cry from the 90's. So what exactly is causing a "crisis" that is leading to horrendous over crowding, dangerous and unhealthy situations for children and adults and, in fact - abusive practices and what is coming to light as an increasingly abusive CULTURE within the border security profession?
Funding. Why is not more funding going to increasing the resources needed to more rapidly process these people so that long term detention (much more expensive) is not necessary? It would seem that resources are going to ENFORCEMENT - rounding up, detaining and deporting people, instead of taking care of what is actually going on at the border. This is leading to horrendous, substandard conditions for adults and children that does not bode well. And it is frankly, abuse. Child abuse. It's been in all the news, and it just gets uglier, not better. Forget "enforcement" other than violent criminals, of those within our country until we clean up the crisis at our holding facilities and we create more tolerable policies and FUND them appropriately. The issue of trafficking is not the most urgent one at this moment.
The other thing is the term "decriminalization".
The history of the southern border is interesting. It was not a crime to cross the border until 1929. The US could deport unauthorized immigrants but it didn't prosecute them. In 1929, as a attempt to restrict Mexicans specifically, it became a misdemeanor on the first attempt and a felony on the second attempt. In 1996, Clinton passed much harsher immigration laws that increased the prosecution and detention of illegal immigrants. It wasn't heavily prosecuted until President Bush, which continued under Obama, and rose under Trump, with his policy of "100% prosecution". And in part - that is why we are where we are here now because those laws form the basis for Trump's policy rationale.
So where has that left us? Forced family seperation, abused and traumatized parents and children, children lost within the system, children warehoused in huge incampments, parents deported without their children.
What is the answer here? There are those who claim that if we have a law it must be prosecuted (100%) but the reality is - they never are. You have finite resources and finite manpower so you make decisions on where to prioritize enforcement. We don't prosecute jaywalking 100% (and those who claim all illegals should be prosecuted are somewhat selective in the crimes they feel should be prosecuted) - but we may enforce it more heavily in areas that are particularly risky, where pedestrian accidents are more common. Likewise with illegal immigration - we prioritize violent crimes, fraud, trafficking for prosecution. Should we completely decriminalize? Probably not. Should we repeal the 1996 laws? Should we alter our policies? Is the status quo at the border detention facilities sustainable in your view?
The other factor is that the current situation is not primarily motivated by "pull factors" - people aren't fleeing El Salvador, Honduras and Guatamala because they want a cushy life on welfare in the US. The fact that the right seeks to promote that is indicative of a systemic attempt to dehumanize migrants (and maybe it makes it easier to promote and support abusive policies?). These illegal immigrants typically come here to work, work mulitple low paying jobs, and tolerate conditions many Americans would not. What's pushing them out is a complex mixture of climate change (there is a multi-year drought in affect covering portions of those countries), severe poverty, political and social violence, and few recourses for the citizens.
What is the solution to the crisis at the border? Not the policies that the current administration has been promoting. At over two years of these policies the situation is worse even though number of border detentions is still well below that of preceding administrations.
Eventually, maybe you'll pull your head out of the sand and recognize that climate change is affecting a great many things. There is a severe drought affecting Guatamala, Hondoras and parts of El Salvador...where most of the families fleeing are coming from. You think that might have something to do with conditions forcing them out?
Changing climate forces desperate Guatemalans to migrate
After months of subsisting almost exclusively on plain corn tortillas and salt, his eyes and cheeks appear sunken in, his skin stretched thin over bone. The majority of his neighbors look the same.
It’s the height of rainy season in Guatemala, but in the village of Conacaste, Chiquimula, the rains came months too late, then stopped altogether. Méndez López’s crops shriveled and died before producing a single ear of corn. Now, with a dwindling supply of food, and no source of income, he’s wondering how he’ll be able to feed his six young children.
“This is the worst drought we’ve ever had,” says Méndez López, toeing the parched earth with the tip of his boot. “We’ve lost absolutely everything. If things don’t improve, we’ll be forced to migrate somewhere else. We can’t go on like this.”
Guatemala is consistently listed among the world’s 10 most vulnerable nations to the effects of climate change. Increasingly erratic climate patterns have produced year after year of failed harvests and dwindling work opportunities across the country, forcing more and more people like Méndez López to consider migration in a last-ditch effort to escape skyrocketing levels of food insecurity and poverty.
It’s the height of rainy season in Guatemala, but in the village of Conacaste, Chiquimula, the rains came months too late, then stopped altogether. Méndez López’s crops shriveled and died before producing a single ear of corn. Now, with a dwindling supply of food, and no source of income, he’s wondering how he’ll be able to feed his six young children.
“This is the worst drought we’ve ever had,” says Méndez López, toeing the parched earth with the tip of his boot. “We’ve lost absolutely everything. If things don’t improve, we’ll be forced to migrate somewhere else. We can’t go on like this.”
Guatemala is consistently listed among the world’s 10 most vulnerable nations to the effects of climate change. Increasingly erratic climate patterns have produced year after year of failed harvests and dwindling work opportunities across the country, forcing more and more people like Méndez López to consider migration in a last-ditch effort to escape skyrocketing levels of food insecurity and poverty.
Olde Europe
Diamond Member
- Dec 8, 2014
- 6,025
- 4,523
- 2,065
By far and away the best posting on that matter. Thanks.
Just one minor objection. It does most assuredly not say that 30% of those suspected to be non-parents are indeed trafficking. Unless, of course, you count parents sending their kid to safety (accompanied by a family friend, for instance), or to live with residents / relatives in the U.S., as traffickers.
But yeah, the propaganda to criminalize migration, in this case based on one unnamed source by a disreputable outfit such as the Washington Examiner is a disgrace, and it serves directly the aim of brutalizing everyone, including kids. And that's a crime.
gallantwarrior
Gold Member
I'm not reading it that way at all Flac. What I am reading is that WHEN they suspect fraud, they seperate them - and out of that subgroup, 30% are found to have indeed committed that fraud. That also means out of that subgroup - 70% did not commit fraud. What that tells me is, first - the agents who are trained (unlike the politicians supporting 100% seperation) to spot this are doing a pretty good job. What it does NOT say is the 30 percent of all migrants are trafficking kids. It says 30% of those suspected of trafficking (a subgroup) are indeed trafficking.
Secondly, you say "they should have been doing this years ago"...well, the short answer is: they have. I don't know about DNA tests because that is a relatively new technology to use at the border, but they have for years seperated migrants suspected of trafficking or not being related to the kids they have in tow. And - frankly, the Dems you seem to be blaming for this and the public in general, have long supported this practice. No one wants to see child trafficking.
What does kind of bother me is this...(and it should bother you as well):
Separating families without any suspician of trafficking. That policy was NOT undertaken as a means of reducing trafficking, THAT excuse was an after thought. The reasons for seperation were clearly articulated by Trump and members of his Administration and those reasons were to provide deterrence to would be immigrants and asylum seekers.
Transcript: White House Chief Of Staff John Kelly's Interview With NPR
The results of these ongoing policies (which, despite the faux claims made by the right) are a big part what is producing the humanitarian nightmare at the border now and in that sense it is a self made crisis. Look at Border Apprehensions:
They are going up, but they are still not up to the level under Obama and all of it is a far cry from the 90's. So what exactly is causing a "crisis" that is leading to horrendous over crowding, dangerous and unhealthy situations for children and adults and, in fact - abusive practices and what is coming to light as an increasingly abusive CULTURE within the border security profession?
Funding. Why is not more funding going to increasing the resources needed to more rapidly process these people so that long term detention (much more expensive) is not necessary? It would seem that resources are going to ENFORCEMENT - rounding up, detaining and deporting people, instead of taking care of what is actually going on at the border. This is leading to horrendous, substandard conditions for adults and children that does not bode well. And it is frankly, abuse. Child abuse. It's been in all the news, and it just gets uglier, not better. Forget "enforcement" other than violent criminals, of those within our country until we clean up the crisis at our holding facilities and we create more tolerable policies and FUND them appropriately. The issue of trafficking is not the most urgent one at this moment.
The other thing is the term "decriminalization".
The history of the southern border is interesting. It was not a crime to cross the border until 1929. The US could deport unauthorized immigrants but it didn't prosecute them. In 1929, as a attempt to restrict Mexicans specifically, it became a misdemeanor on the first attempt and a felony on the second attempt. In 1996, Clinton passed much harsher immigration laws that increased the prosecution and detention of illegal immigrants. It wasn't heavily prosecuted until President Bush, which continued under Obama, and rose under Trump, with his policy of "100% prosecution". And in part - that is why we are where we are here now because those laws form the basis for Trump's policy rationale.
So where has that left us? Forced family seperation, abused and traumatized parents and children, children lost within the system, children warehoused in huge incampments, parents deported without their children.
What is the answer here? There are those who claim that if we have a law it must be prosecuted (100%) but the reality is - they never are. You have finite resources and finite manpower so you make decisions on where to prioritize enforcement. We don't prosecute jaywalking 100% (and those who claim all illegals should be prosecuted are somewhat selective in the crimes they feel should be prosecuted) - but we may enforce it more heavily in areas that are particularly risky, where pedestrian accidents are more common. Likewise with illegal immigration - we prioritize violent crimes, fraud, trafficking for prosecution. Should we completely decriminalize? Probably not. Should we repeal the 1996 laws? Should we alter our policies? Is the status quo at the border detention facilities sustainable in your view?
The other factor is that the current situation is not primarily motivated by "pull factors" - people aren't fleeing El Salvador, Honduras and Guatamala because they want a cushy life on welfare in the US. The fact that the right seeks to promote that is indicative of a systemic attempt to dehumanize migrants (and maybe it makes it easier to promote and support abusive policies?). These illegal immigrants typically come here to work, work mulitple low paying jobs, and tolerate conditions many Americans would not. What's pushing them out is a complex mixture of climate change (there is a multi-year drought in affect covering portions of those countries), severe poverty, political and social violence, and few recourses for the citizens.
What is the solution to the crisis at the border? Not the policies that the current administration has been promoting. At over two years of these policies the situation is worse even though number of border detentions is still well below that of preceding administrations.
That was a very well articulated analysis of the situation...up until the TDS reared its ugly head. As you noted, causes for this situation cannot be limited to one single element. And, the situation has been worsening for decades. Suddenly, the cumulative effects of multiple causes become irrelevant and can be narrowed down to the actions of one administration?
What would you suggest be done in order to improve the current situation?
Ray From Cleveland
Diamond Member
- Aug 16, 2015
- 97,215
- 37,460
- 2,290
So they're having a drought. How is that our fault and why should we be the ones to suffer for it? We have droughts in our country too. That's nature.
WE DON'T CONTROL THE CLIMATE, GOD DOES!
gallantwarrior
Gold Member
I ask again; what suggestions would you make to improve the situation?
I'm not reading it that way at all Flac. What I am reading is that WHEN they suspect fraud, they seperate them - and out of that subgroup, 30% are found to have indeed committed that fraud. That also means out of that subgroup - 70% did not commit fraud. What that tells me is, first - the agents who are trained (unlike the politicians supporting 100% seperation) to spot this are doing a pretty good job. What it does NOT say is the 30 percent of all migrants are trafficking kids. It says 30% of those suspected of trafficking (a subgroup) are indeed trafficking.
Secondly, you say "they should have been doing this years ago"...well, the short answer is: they have. I don't know about DNA tests because that is a relatively new technology to use at the border, but they have for years seperated migrants suspected of trafficking or not being related to the kids they have in tow. And - frankly, the Dems you seem to be blaming for this and the public in general, have long supported this practice. No one wants to see child trafficking.
What does kind of bother me is this...(and it should bother you as well):
Separating families without any suspician of trafficking. That policy was NOT undertaken as a means of reducing trafficking, THAT excuse was an after thought. The reasons for seperation were clearly articulated by Trump and members of his Administration and those reasons were to provide deterrence to would be immigrants and asylum seekers.
Transcript: White House Chief Of Staff John Kelly's Interview With NPR
The results of these ongoing policies (which, despite the faux claims made by the right) are a big part what is producing the humanitarian nightmare at the border now and in that sense it is a self made crisis. Look at Border Apprehensions:
They are going up, but they are still not up to the level under Obama and all of it is a far cry from the 90's. So what exactly is causing a "crisis" that is leading to horrendous over crowding, dangerous and unhealthy situations for children and adults and, in fact - abusive practices and what is coming to light as an increasingly abusive CULTURE within the border security profession?
Funding. Why is not more funding going to increasing the resources needed to more rapidly process these people so that long term detention (much more expensive) is not necessary? It would seem that resources are going to ENFORCEMENT - rounding up, detaining and deporting people, instead of taking care of what is actually going on at the border. This is leading to horrendous, substandard conditions for adults and children that does not bode well. And it is frankly, abuse. Child abuse. It's been in all the news, and it just gets uglier, not better. Forget "enforcement" other than violent criminals, of those within our country until we clean up the crisis at our holding facilities and we create more tolerable policies and FUND them appropriately. The issue of trafficking is not the most urgent one at this moment.
The other thing is the term "decriminalization".
The history of the southern border is interesting. It was not a crime to cross the border until 1929. The US could deport unauthorized immigrants but it didn't prosecute them. In 1929, as a attempt to restrict Mexicans specifically, it became a misdemeanor on the first attempt and a felony on the second attempt. In 1996, Clinton passed much harsher immigration laws that increased the prosecution and detention of illegal immigrants. It wasn't heavily prosecuted until President Bush, which continued under Obama, and rose under Trump, with his policy of "100% prosecution". And in part - that is why we are where we are here now because those laws form the basis for Trump's policy rationale.
So where has that left us? Forced family seperation, abused and traumatized parents and children, children lost within the system, children warehoused in huge incampments, parents deported without their children.
What is the answer here? There are those who claim that if we have a law it must be prosecuted (100%) but the reality is - they never are. You have finite resources and finite manpower so you make decisions on where to prioritize enforcement. We don't prosecute jaywalking 100% (and those who claim all illegals should be prosecuted are somewhat selective in the crimes they feel should be prosecuted) - but we may enforce it more heavily in areas that are particularly risky, where pedestrian accidents are more common. Likewise with illegal immigration - we prioritize violent crimes, fraud, trafficking for prosecution. Should we completely decriminalize? Probably not. Should we repeal the 1996 laws? Should we alter our policies? Is the status quo at the border detention facilities sustainable in your view?
The other factor is that the current situation is not primarily motivated by "pull factors" - people aren't fleeing El Salvador, Honduras and Guatamala because they want a cushy life on welfare in the US. The fact that the right seeks to promote that is indicative of a systemic attempt to dehumanize migrants (and maybe it makes it easier to promote and support abusive policies?). These illegal immigrants typically come here to work, work mulitple low paying jobs, and tolerate conditions many Americans would not. What's pushing them out is a complex mixture of climate change (there is a multi-year drought in affect covering portions of those countries), severe poverty, political and social violence, and few recourses for the citizens.
What is the solution to the crisis at the border? Not the policies that the current administration has been promoting. At over two years of these policies the situation is worse even though number of border detentions is still well below that of preceding administrations.
That was a very well articulated analysis of the situation...up until the TDS reared its ugly head. As you noted, causes for this situation cannot be limited to one single element. And, the situation has been worsening for decades. Suddenly, the cumulative effects of multiple causes become irrelevant and can be narrowed down to the actions of one administration?
What would you suggest be done in order to improve the current situation?
And there you go...you want to completely ignore Trump Administration policies and label any criticism of Trump as "TDS". Let me ask you...whenever you criticize Obama, is that ODS rearing it's ugly head?
In this case, his policies have had a direct effect in magnifying the situation at the border exponentially and you want to ignore it. I laid out how changes in law over multiple administrations affected the current situation, but without question it is the policies of this administration that has created the humanitarian nightmare.
100 % family seperation and prosecution
Insufficient resources in place to handle the human fall out from this.
No or too few resources allocated to speeding up the system while maintaining the law and justice for all involved.
An inability (or unwillingness?) to alter a course of action when it becomes apparent it is creating a catastrophe.
A willingness to allow a culture encouraging the systemic dehumanization of migrants.
Actively preventing them from getting needed aid and assistence (preventing access to legal help for example, denying passports to immigration lawyers trying to cross into Mexico to help those awaiting asylum).
Allowing people, including children to be detained for long periods of time, in conditions described by the IG investigations as dangerous and horrific.
Add to that this administration is seeking indefinate detention for these people including children (a court order slapped that down).
Preventing members of congress from viewing facilities and interviewing people.
All of the above contribute to a worsening situation wouldn't you say? That's not TDS - that taking a bad situation and creating a crisis.
The conditions in these places has been in the news a long time - a very long time. Why has little changed? How much of the new funding will actually go towards making needed changes in those conditions?
What suggestions?
Set some immigration priorities based on real necessities. Fact: illegal immigrants don't substantially raise crime nor do they tend to abuse the welfare system. Put SOME enforcement on the back burner and for the SHORT TERM turn resources towards:
- improving human conditions for detainees at the border - they are treated worse than prisoners in the prison system.
- make it easier for sponsors to claim kids without fear of deportation if they step forward...get those kids out of those horrible camps.
- take a look at the latest policy (Trump administration by the way or will you call this one TDS too?) - defunding education and recreation programs ofr detained children and rescind it. WE are incarcerting them, WE have a certain responsibility to them. They are KIDS - regardless of who their parents are or what their parents did - I really would hope we are better than third world countries when it comes to kids.
- use some of the newly approved funding to hire more immigration judges so these processes don't drag on forever, leaving ordinary people (not hard core criminals) indefinately incarcerated and lining the pockets of private companies paid to house people in deplorable conditions with little accountability.
- Make better use of other systems of tracking people rather than detaining them. Use electronic surveillance. Microchip them. I don't care but surely we can do better than what we are doing right now.
Once you get that under control and adequately funded so the process moves along more quickly - turn towards other enforcement. Prioritize the deportation of serious criminals - rape, murder, etc. - and do it. Deport them.
Work on real immigration reform...but this would require bipartisanship. Not a my way or the highway approach.
Pass DACA and get it off the table. It's widely popular, we don't need to hold it hostage. Do it and move on.
And the big picture - what to do about the "Push Factors" forcing people out? Trump seems to think he can order countries to refuse to let their citizens leave. Like the old China and USSR. I doubt that will work. I really have no idea how to fix those much bigger problems - problems which are actually reflected world wide where we have the largest numbers of displaced people in modern history. Do you have any ideas? Ones you can live with?
Who says it's "our fault"? It isn't. But it affects us. So go and bury your head in the sand again.
Similar threads
New Topics
-
-
Zone1 VIDEO : A group of MOSCOW imperialists men attacked Jewish worshipers- Started by Litwin
- Replies: 0
-
If the war can keep the price of gas up for 20 months, the increased revenues, from gas, will pay for the war.- Started by ElmerMudd
- Replies: 0
-
Latest Discussions
-
-
-
-
-
Jeffrey Epstein claimed he gave Russians insight into Trump- Latest: Synthaholic