Did Jefferson deserve to be on Mt Rushmore?

[GHook93]

Why??

Washington was the first president of America - Lincoln preserved the Union, TDR made America relevent on the world stage.

What did Jefferson do ??

It would appear he furnished the ground the Mount Rushmore stands on, that's all.

So where do you wingnuts find the authorization, in the constitution, to use public money to purchase property? I agree with Jefferson's decision, but if you do you have to accept the "social welfare" clause as being intentionally overly broad.

The spending clause you stupid little troll!

Although the spending clause is Congress to act upon, that wasn't your question!

 

[Cecilie1200]

This whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.

Um, Thomas Jefferson DIDN'T write the Constitution. He wasn't even in the country when it was written.

 

[Cecilie1200]

This whole point of this thread is so that ginscpy can advertise the fact that he didn't know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.

Actually, the U.S. Constitution was drafted by committee...

Under Jefferson's direction and control with substantial influence by James Madison. Madison should be there instead of FDR.

Katz, Jefferson had no "direction and control" in regards to the Constitution. He was in France at the time, serving as our ambassador. And James Madison, known to history as "the Father of the US Constitution", had a lot more than "substantial influence".

 

[Cecilie1200]

why??

Washington was the first president of america - lincoln preserved the union, tdr made america relevent on the world stage.

What did jefferson do ??

tdr?

Teddy is the one I question, if you doubt Jefferson made a difference, read the Constitution.

Oh, my freaking God. What IS it with you people? Jefferson had nothing to do with the Constitution! His ass was in EUROPE at the time! What do you think, he hopped the Concorde to come back and weigh in on it? He was having late-night phone chats with James Madison about it?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Jefferson was a slaveholder

Lots of folks were in that day and age.

And?

So was Washington for that matter. Consistency is not your strongest suit?

No, his wife was.

No, Washington himself owned some, as well.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The faces on Mt. Rushmore were chosen by the artist to reflect his personal opinion of who had done the most in the first 150 years to protect the Republic and expand it.

As a work of art, it should not be altered or added on to. It would be every bit as inappropriate as painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

 

[Rozman]

Why??

Washington was the first president of America - Lincoln preserved the Union, TDR made America relevent on the world stage.

What did Jefferson do ??

I'm surprised that there hasn't been a push by MSNBC for Obama to be up there.

 

[Nemo]

Thomas Jefferson had a significant influence on the founding of the nation; albeit his ideas were not adopted by the framers of the Constitution. Jefferson was serving as Ambassador to France at the time of the Constitutional Convention; and except for his correspondence with some of the delegates, what resulted was largely the work of James Madison. (Even his draft Constitution and Declaration of Rights for Virginia was rejected in favor of the model of George Mason.) Jefferson’s main contribution was the Louisiana Purchase, which opened the way to westward expansion, and the rise of America to become one of the great nations of the world. The epitaph on his tomb recites: "Here was buried Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of American Independence, of the Statute of Virginia for religious freedom, & Father of the University of Virginia." He died bankrupt; but he nevertheless left a rich legacy for all of us.

 

[paperview]

Oh, my freaking God. What IS it with you people? Jefferson had nothing to do with the Constitution! His ass was in EUROPE at the time! What do you think, he hopped the Concorde to come back and weigh in on it? He was having late-night phone chats with James Madison about it?

Jefferson was in Paris, yes, but TJ certainly had an influence.

They had this thing called letters. Wild huh? They were sent back and forth and they still reside in special places we call National Archives, Libraries and Museums.

Here's one:

Jefferson objects to absence
of Bill of Rights

Thomas Jefferson's December 20, 1787, letter to James Madison contains objections to key parts of the new Federal Constitution. Primarily, Jefferson noted the absence of a bill of rights and the failure to provide for rotation in office or term limits, particularly for the chief executive.

During the writing and ratification of the constitution, in an effort to influence the formation of the new governmental structure, Jefferson wrote many similar letters to friends and political acquaintances in America.


Thomas Jefferson to James Madison
December 20, 1787.
Manuscript letter.
Page 2
Manuscript Division (106)

Here's another:

In case it's too hard to read, Jefferson here makes that famous quote:
"our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost."

Need more? Read the series of letters between John Adams and Jefferson regarding the debates. Fascinating.

Here's more, for your perusal:

To Edward Carrington, Paris, January 16, 1787
To James Madison, Paris, January 30, 1787
To Abigail Adams, Paris, Feb. 22, 1787
To Lafayette, Nice, April 11, 1787
To Martha Jefferson, May 21, 1787
To John Adams, Paris, July 1, 1787
To Peter Carr, Paris, Aug. 10, 1787
To John Adams, Paris, Aug. 30, 1787
To William S. Smith, Paris, Nov. 13, 1787
To John Adams, Paris, Nov. 13, 1787

How bout this sniglet?

"The second feature I dislike, (about the Constitution) and greatly dislike, is that abandonment in every instance of the necessity of rotation in office, and most particularly in the case of the President." From “Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, December 20, 1787,” page 729

Letters. Amazing things, eh?

 

[whitehall]

A president who was elected in 1801 gets grandfathered on Mt Rushmore no question. The Louisiana Purchase was pretty good. Repealing the Whiskey tax was another success story. Staying out the Napolianic Wars was pretty smart. Woodie Wilson told Americans he wouldn't send Americans to fight in a foreign war and then he had a stroke and his wife sent the Dough Boys to save France from the Hun and we did it again twenty years later under another crooked democrat administration.

 

[Buford]

I think the real question should be this. Does the Democrat Party have the right to exist since it was the political party that founded the KKK?

 

[regent]

I think the real question should be this. Does the Democrat Party have the right to exist since it was the political party that founded the KKK?

Yep, the Democratic party, or at least the southern branch of the party were the founders of the KKK. Their hostility to the party of Lincoln was their cause to be Democratic, not philosophy. In Truman's time the Democratic party decided those votes were not part of the Democratic party philosophy and a change was needed. The loss of the solid south and all those southern votes would hurt, but it was done. The southern Democrats left the Democratic party and formed their own party; the Dixiecrat party. That party failing, the former southern Democrats then joined the Republican party. The Republican party welcomed the former party of the KKK and it is in the Republican party of today they are to be found.

 

[whitehall]

I think the real question should be this. Does the Democrat Party have the right to exist since it was the political party that founded the KKK?

Yep, the Democratic party, or at least the southern branch of the party were the founders of the KKK. Their hostility to the party of Lincoln was their cause to be Democratic, not philosophy. In Truman's time the Democratic party decided those votes were not part of the Democratic party philosophy and a change was needed. The loss of the solid south and all those southern votes would hurt, but it was done. The southern Democrats left the Democratic party and formed their own party; the Dixiecrat party. That party failing, the former southern Democrats then joined the Republican party. The Republican party welcomed the former party of the KKK and it is in the Republican party of today they are to be found.

Same old democrat dodge. Racist democrats get a pass because the ....southern branch was segregationist. When FDR appointed former KKK member Hugo Black to the Supreme Court he joked that KKK members were among his best supporters. When LBJ was considering appointing Thurgood Marshall to the Court and someone recommended Black federal judge Leon Higgembothem LBH remarked "son, the only one who knows Higgenbothem is Higenbothem's mother. When I appoint a ****** to the Supreme Court I want everyone to know he is a ******.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Oh, my freaking God. What IS it with you people? Jefferson had nothing to do with the Constitution! His ass was in EUROPE at the time! What do you think, he hopped the Concorde to come back and weigh in on it? He was having late-night phone chats with James Madison about it?

Jefferson was in Paris, yes, but TJ certainly had an influence.

They had this thing called letters. Wild huh? They were sent back and forth and they still reside in special places we call National Archives, Libraries and Museums.

Here's one:

Jefferson objects to absence
of Bill of Rights

Thomas Jefferson's December 20, 1787, letter to James Madison contains objections to key parts of the new Federal Constitution. Primarily, Jefferson noted the absence of a bill of rights and the failure to provide for rotation in office or term limits, particularly for the chief executive.

During the writing and ratification of the constitution, in an effort to influence the formation of the new governmental structure, Jefferson wrote many similar letters to friends and political acquaintances in America.


Thomas Jefferson to James Madison
December 20, 1787.
Manuscript letter.
Page 2
Manuscript Division (106)

Here's another:

In case it's too hard to read, Jefferson here makes that famous quote:
"our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost."

Need more? Read the series of letters between John Adams and Jefferson regarding the debates. Fascinating.

Here's more, for your perusal:

To Edward Carrington, Paris, January 16, 1787
To James Madison, Paris, January 30, 1787
To Abigail Adams, Paris, Feb. 22, 1787
To Lafayette, Nice, April 11, 1787
To Martha Jefferson, May 21, 1787
To John Adams, Paris, July 1, 1787
To Peter Carr, Paris, Aug. 10, 1787
To John Adams, Paris, Aug. 30, 1787
To William S. Smith, Paris, Nov. 13, 1787
To John Adams, Paris, Nov. 13, 1787

How bout this sniglet?

"The second feature I dislike, (about the Constitution) and greatly dislike, is that abandonment in every instance of the necessity of rotation in office, and most particularly in the case of the President." From “Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, December 20, 1787,” page 729

Letters. Amazing things, eh?

In 1787, it took something like two months for a letter to travel one-way between America and Europe. What'd you think, they just slung the mail bag onto a US Postal Service jet? The Constitutional Convention, on the other hand, lasted about 17 weeks, or just over four months. That doesn't leave a lot of room for deep, meaningful consultation, completely aside from the insult it deals to all the men who gathered for the Convention by implying that they were too damned stupid to come up with any ideas of their own.

Give it up, get over this slavish worship that makes you want to believe Thomas Jefferson was the only Founding Father and the sum total of the formation of the United States, and be realistic. James Madison is the Father of the Constitution, not Thomas Jefferson. George Mason is the Father of the Bill of Rights. George Washington was THE most admired man in the nation, and the one for whom the job of President was specifically tailored. We have lots of Founders besides Thomas Jefferson, and while he's among the best-known and most influential, he's far from singular.

 

[paperview]

In 1787, it took something like two months for a letter to travel one-way between America and Europe. What'd you think, they just slung the mail bag onto a US Postal Service jet? The Constitutional Convention, on the other hand, lasted about 17 weeks, or just over four months. That doesn't leave a lot of room for deep, meaningful consultation, completely aside from the insult it deals to all the men who gathered for the Convention by implying that they were too damned stupid to come up with any ideas of their own.

Give it up, get over this slavish worship that makes you want to believe Thomas Jefferson was the only Founding Father and the sum total of the formation of the United States, and be realistic. James Madison is the Father of the Constitution, not Thomas Jefferson. George Mason is the Father of the Bill of Rights. George Washington was THE most admired man in the nation, and the one for whom the job of President was specifically tailored. We have lots of Founders besides Thomas Jefferson, and while he's among the best-known and most influential, he's far from singular.

That's a pretty weird reply to my thorough post which clearly shows, as my first sentence rebuttal states: He had an influence --
to your whacked out exclamation: "Oh, my freaking God. What IS it with you people? Jefferson had nothing to do with the Constitution!"

As for your assertion the whole alpha and omega of the Constitution was decided, as if in a vacuum, in four months - is another absurdity.

You somehow neglect to consider the many debates of the Continental and Confederation Congress', the Annapolis Convention in 1786 and that little thing called the Articles of Confederation, which we were operating under at the time, and what the 1787 Convention was initially meant to only remedy, not replace.
The Bill of Rights was formally birthed August of 1789 and ratified almost 2 1/2 years later, and it was the lack of that Bill of Rights that put ratification of that newly inked Constitution in peril. In fact, some were even calling for a whole new Convention. Jefferson again, had influence on this, as he remarked quite clearly in his many letters to Adams, Washington and Madison how he found it unacceptable to not include that.

Do you think lengthy letters like these from James Madison to Jefferson and these from Jefferson to Madison had any influence in helping to secure its ratification? You think those missives Madison scribed to the New York papers, those posits we've come to know as The Federalist Papers, happened in a vacuum too? Without influence from the man who penned the Declaration of Independence?

You were owned. As you most often are here. Crow, it's what's for dinner.
Chow.

 

[regent]

I think the real question should be this. Does the Democrat Party have the right to exist since it was the political party that founded the KKK?

Yep, the Democratic party, or at least the southern branch of the party were the founders of the KKK. Their hostility to the party of Lincoln was their cause to be Democratic, not philosophy. In Truman's time the Democratic party decided those votes were not part of the Democratic party philosophy and a change was needed. The loss of the solid south and all those southern votes would hurt, but it was done. The southern Democrats left the Democratic party and formed their own party; the Dixiecrat party. That party failing, the former southern Democrats then joined the Republican party. The Republican party welcomed the former party of the KKK and it is in the Republican party of today they are to be found.

Same old democrat dodge. Racist democrats get a pass because the ....southern branch was segregationist. When FDR appointed former KKK member Hugo Black to the Supreme Court he joked that KKK members were among his best supporters. When LBJ was considering appointing Thurgood Marshall to the Court and someone recommended Black federal judge Leon Higgembothem LBH remarked "son, the only one who knows Higgenbothem is Higenbothem's mother. When I appoint a ****** to the Supreme Court I want everyone to know he is a ******.

The dodge you claim is history, and it can be changed on these boards, but it's in the books for all- time.
Because the southern Democrats were racists and the Democratic party eased them out and they joined the Republican party, how does that become a pass? Just more history.

What does LBJ's quote have to do with the question?

As for Hugo Black. When the DAR refused Marian Anderson the right to sing from their Constitution Hall because the DAR allowed only white people in the hall, she sang instead from the Lincoln Memorial. The DAR hall held 3500 people, and 75,000 attended the Anderson concert along with Justice Hugo Black.