Determinism vs Freewill

[JoeMoma]

Or, you are a sore-loser who's now resorting to hit and runs as a form of therapy for your hurt pride.

You got beat. So that can't just be put down to an opponent's poor wordskills.

I was unaware that there is a contest in which to loose. Could I see a copy of the contest rules so that I can do better next time and perhaps win?

 

[Grumblenuts]

I'm a theist. This means I believe there is a god, but does not necessarily mean I am religious.

Okay, I gather you mean you are:

spiritual:

adjective
relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
"I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare"

Similar:
nonmaterial - inner - psychic - psychical - psychological - incorporeal - intangible - otherworldly - unworldly - ethereal - transcendent - mystic - mystical - numinous - metaphysical - extramundane - immaterial

Pick your preferred synonyms from above. I also see that you claim to have been raised a Naturalist which, given the context, must mean:

the philosophical belief that everything arises from natural properties and causes, and supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded or discounted.
"this romanticized attitude to the world did conflict with his avowed naturalism"

Do words have meaning? Are dictionaries just a waste of everyone's time? I'm a naturalist. I believe nature shall forever dominate us and freely reveals all fundamental truth.. very logically. We've just been translating what she's been telling us extremely poorly because we're so distracted by our gods, bibles, and such.. our own creations in other words.. since we've yet to discover any better opiate for controlling the masses and ourselves. Fantasies. All that religion or spirituality have ever been about.

 

[Gregory A]

I was unaware that there is a contest in which to loose. Could I see a copy of the contest rules so that I can do better next time and perhaps win?

The contest is Determinism vs Freewill the variant here is Atheism vs Theism. The rules are that the Left can be totally unreasonable whereas I a theist need to be intellectually honest at all times. You can see why my side is going to lose under those rules but that's just how it is I suppose. Adam and Eve did choose to leave the Garden of Eden and enter into the harshness of reality.

 

[Gregory A]

Okay, I gather you mean you are:

spiritual:

Logical.

As I see rationality as being a tool that can be used in an otherwise deterministic world.

Pick your preferred synonyms from above. I also see that you claim to have been raised a Naturalist which, given the context, must mean:

Do words have meaning? Are dictionaries just a waste of everyone's time? I'm a naturalist. I believe nature shall forever dominate us and freely reveals all fundamental truth.. very logically. We've just been translating what she's been telling us extremely poorly because we're so distracted by our gods, bibles, and such.. our own creations in other words.. since we've yet to discover any better opiate for controlling the masses and ourselves. Fantasies. All that religion or spirituality have ever been about.

Words do have meaning but it is us that gives that meaning and not the dictionaries.

When did the move (to cover) from atheism to naturalism occur? Just then?

You can't hold out for evidence of a god but then believe that Nature rules let's face it. Did the non-existent middleground that atheism occupies start to sink on you? Non-belief and rationality are not compatible. We need to either believe that a god exists or believe that Nature rules. The arrogance supporting any middle positon will not sustain an argument.

 

[JoeMoma]

The contest is Determinism vs Freewill the variant here is Atheism vs Theism. The rules are that the Left can be totally unreasonable whereas I a theist need to be intellectually honest at all times. You can see why my side is going to lose under those rules but that's just how it is I suppose. Adam and Eve did choose to leave the Garden of Eden and enter into the harshness of reality.

Okay, whatever!

 

[Grumblenuts]

When did the move (to cover) from atheism to naturalism occur? Just then?

You can't hold out for evidence of a god but then believe that Nature rules let's face it. Did the non-existent middleground that atheism occupies start to sink on you? Non-belief and rationality are not compatible. We need to either believe that a god exists or believe that Nature rules. The arrogance supporting any middle positon will not sustain an argument.

Okay, thanks. I can plainly see that this has no hope of going anywhere. Good luck with all that.

Freedom From Religion Foundation - Freedom From Religion Foundation

The nonprofit Freedom From Religion Foundation works to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism, and to promote the constitutional principle of separation between church and state.

ffrf.org

How do freethinkers know what is true?

Clarence Darrow once noted, "I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose."
Freethinkers are naturalistic.

 

[Gregory A]

Okay, thanks. I can plainly see that this has no hope of going anywhere. Good luck with all that.

Freedom From Religion Foundation - Freedom From Religion Foundation

The nonprofit Freedom From Religion Foundation works to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism, and to promote the constitutional principle of separation between church and state.

ffrf.org

So, I'm right again. As soon as the Left catch on that they are in for a fight they back out. You finally get what it is I'm saying and now don't want anything to do with any kind of serious debate. The totally unprincipled and unreasonable people you need to be to sustain your position. I knew that if I'd included 'theism' in my OP it would bring the sharks. But as soon as those sharks realized this theist will fight back they swam off. It's a small victory in a losing battle for me, but still it's something.

 

[Grumblenuts]

So, I'm right again. As soon as the Left

Look, son. I'm not "the Left," I'm just one person. I am a naturalist, atheist, and freethinker - all things that logically fit together like a glove. Nothing to do with your Right / Left binary war efforts. You've won nothing. Me neither. As JoeMama indicated, the only contest here is the one going on in your addled head. You started a topic, asserted some stuff, repelled anyone and everyone who tried to discuss it with you, then declared yourself winner. Wow, what a colossal waste of time. I've provided you links to reading material as a parting gift. Perhaps the search function within will help you understand things better some day. If not, whatever. In any case, make love and embrace joy. Life is short.

 

[Gregory A]

Look, son. I'm not "the Left," I'm just one person. I am a naturalist, atheist, and freethinker - all things that logically fit together like a glove. Nothing to do with your Right / Left binary war efforts. You've won nothing. Me neither. As JoeMama indicated, the only contest here is the one going on in your addled head. You started a topic, asserted some stuff, repelled anyone and everyone who tried to discuss it with you, then declared yourself winner. Wow, what a colossal waste of time. I've provided you links to reading material as a parting gift. Perhaps the search function within will help you understand things better some day. If not, whatever. In any case, make love and embrace joy. Life is short.

My friend, I've been fighting this battle for nearly a decade now so I do know what I am up against with this having had these very same arguments with many before you. The result is always the same and does as I'd made clear beforehand result in a catch-22 for me every time.

And you thought you'd be smug and smart with your atheism but now to come close to the realization that it is not even a valid logical position to be in must hurt.

I'd made the point from the OP that the weak link in the argument should logically be atheism. But atheists are not equipped to stand up and fight. Just piranhas circling waiting for some helpless theist to stumble into the pond. And I'd said I can only lose and this is what happened.

I've won this skirmish but arrogance and ignorance is winning the battle, the Left winning the war.

So go ahead retreat for now until some hapless person comes along that is.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I've been fighting this battle for nearly a decade now

A whole decade? Really?
Your purpose appears be learning nothing with a vengeance.
Again, good luck with all that.

 

[JoeMoma]

Gregory, have you considered talking over these things with a therapist?

 

[JoeMoma]

A whole decade? Really?
Your purpose appears be learning nothing with a vengeance.
Again, good luck with all that.

I initially thought this thread would be a friendly philosophical discussion about about Determinism vs. Freewill, but it turned out to be come kind of battle over Gregory's incoherent ramblings. I'm still not sure what left and right has to do with it.

 

[Gregory A]

Look, son. I'm not "the Left," I'm just one person. I am a naturalist, atheist, and freethinker - all things that logically fit together like a glove. Nothing to do with your Right / Left binary war efforts. You've won nothing. Me neither. As JoeMama indicated, the only contest here is the one going on in your addled head. You started a topic, asserted some stuff, repelled anyone and everyone who tried to discuss it with you, then declared yourself winner. Wow, what a colossal waste of time. I've provided you links to reading material as a parting gift. Perhaps the search function within will help you understand things better some day. If not, whatever. In any case, make love and embrace joy. Life is short.

Gregory, have you considered talking over these things with a therapist?

I get this all of the time as you would expect. And I know the rule is if several people start telling you the same thing then most probably they are right. But then these people are my adversaries. So you do see the problem there. I think you are being serious, but regardless, and maybe it's a subconscious thing on your part, as this still is in effect an ad-hominem be it in compassionate clothing.

 

[Gregory A]

I initially thought this thread would be a friendly philosophical discussion about about Determinism vs. Freewill, but it turned out to be come kind of battle over Gregory's incoherent ramblings. I'm still not sure what left and right has to do with it.

It's easy. Religion is an organized form of belief in a god/s. The church itself is a foundation stone conservative value. Therefore we do accept that theists in general are to the right of the socio-political spectrum. How then would it not follow that atheism is on the left in this same sense.

And you are not sure about this because you have absolutely no idea what it is about yet still challenge it regardless. Arrogantly believing we are right does not work. Your lack of understanding strengthens theism's position.

 

[Gregory A]

A whole decade? Really?
Your purpose appears be learning nothing with a vengeance.
Again, good luck with all that.

How do we learn anything from those who are opposed to us and then still maintain our positions.

 

[Grumblenuts]

How do we learn anything from those who are opposed to us and then still maintain our positions.

What position is that?

It's easy. Religion is an organized form of belief in a god/s. The church itself is a foundation stone conservative value.

Evidence? Which "god/s"? What church? What "value"?
Indeed, asserting pointless nothings is easy. Simply divide and conquer. Oldest trick in the book.

Traditionalist conservatism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Restoration Movement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Use "Find" to text search that last one for "liberal".. and "atheis".. You'll find internal conflict aplenty has always existed within your supposed "conservative" religious movements. Nothing to do with atheism whatsoever. Class struggle continues unabated. But you're not allowed to acknowledge that here. Our billionaires shall Shirley save us. They simply must!

 

[Gregory A]

What position is that?

You're a liberal. I'm a conservative. What other position would be relative???

Evidence? Which "god/s"? What church? What "value"?
Indeed, asserting pointless nothings is easy. Simply divide and conquer. Oldest trick in the book.

Which "god/s"?

What would it matter which god/s?

Religion is an organized belief in god/s.

Religions are organizations are they not? It is not the views of a single theist that constitutes a religion.

"What church?"

'The church is not a building, but a body of believers with a specific nature and purpose'

"What "value"

A conservative value is what I'd clearly said. Marriage is another conservative value for example.

"pointless nothings"???

You have trouble understanding the simplest things I post. No wonder you don't take much in,.

Traditionalist conservatism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Restoration Movement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Use "Find" to text search that last one for "liberal".. and "atheis".. You'll find internal conflict aplenty has always existed within your supposed "conservative" religious movements. Nothing to do with atheism whatsoever. Class struggle continues unabated. But you're not allowed to acknowledge that here. Our billionaires shall Shirley save us. They simply must!

 

[Gregory A]

What position is that?

Evidence? Which "god/s"? What church? What "value"?
Indeed, asserting pointless nothings is easy. Simply divide and conquer. Oldest trick in the book.

Traditionalist conservatism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Restoration Movement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Use "Find" to text search that last one for "liberal".. and "atheis".. You'll find internal conflict aplenty has always existed within your supposed "conservative" religious movements. Nothing to do with atheism whatsoever. Class struggle continues unabated. But you're not allowed to acknowledge that here. Our billionaires shall Shirley save us. They simply must!

The Liberal latches onto atheism because for one reason it provides him with another vector of attack on the conservative. And to try and get away with suggesting religion isn't generally on the right is simply being dishonest. Christianity is a soft religion in relation to some others but it's still socially conservative. The Leftshift process (society's movement to the left) explaining the decline in church attendance..

 

[Gregory A]

I initially thought this thread would be a friendly philosophical discussion about about Determinism vs. Freewill, but it turned out to be come kind of battle over Gregory's incoherent ramblings. I'm still not sure what left and right has to do with it.

What's happening here (ironically still) is that while Determinism dictates your Leftism, my free-will allows me to have an opposite consequently disagreeable position.

Hence the catch22 of this. And I can't give up my freedom. But you could escape your dictatorship.

And why this can't be friendly is that as your side is winning therefore my existence is threatened.

 

[Gregory A]

Atheism is a battle tank of the Left its armaments include determinism which it uses in its attack on the religious beliefs of the Right. Atheists are not the passive non-believers they would need to be if they simply did not believe in a god. Instead their activism gives them away and allows for the vulnerabilities that need to exist, if there is a god, to reveal themselves. Atheists struggle with their own definition for example. Non-belief and lack of belief are vague descriptions as they suggest an insufficiency in something that they occasionally claim does not exist. So for a god to exist atheism's position needs to be invalid which is how it is. But that said atheism's invalidity does not mean there is a god. And that's because naturalism is the actual counterposition to theism, which itself did not have any real basis in science until Darwin's Origin of the Species. Whereas atheism, as the term suggests, has been around as long as theism. We can only conclude that atheists are nothing more than unconvinced theists, and that does make us think is it that their weaponry is outdated too.