Destroying America: More on the North AMerican Union

[Mr.Conley]

That's right conley. You just think a north american trade bloc is the only way to compete. You don't want to dissolve our sovereignty. My bad.

Why do you insist on making stuff up? It's not the only way, but greater economic power can be achieved through cooperation with our neighbors. The key to competitiveness is a good educational system, especially in math, science, and creative thinking. We also need to be more innovative, support scientific research, and do away with the anti-intellectual atmosphere pervading the country.

The ccp is not losing power. They control everything. Maybe they screw some local commandentes occassionally, but they are not a free country, and the wealth will NEVER trickle down the way it should. They are totalitarians. They are committed to that.

pssst... I have an idea. If you tap your ruby slippers together and say your wish three times, then maybe, just maybe, your wish will come true.

You ignore the best option, ceasing trade with totalitarians, like we did effectively with the USSR. We can do the same with china, and simlar abominable countries.

If by best option you mean the best option to halt the advance of freedom, hurt capitalism, throw tens of millions into poverty, and hurt America.
Dude, stopping trade didn't cause the collapse of the Soviet Union, just like ceasing trade didn't destroy North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Burma, China from 1949 through the late 70s, or the communist states of Eastern Europe, and it won't destroy the CCP in China. Trade embargos only allow the other country to demonize us and strengthen their hold on power. If you want to spread Communism, then sure, have an embargo, but I'm pro-freedom.

What destroyed the Soviet Union was the incredibly poor central planning that failed to deliver to the people of Russia. Only when Gorbacov created glastnost and opened their economy to trade did the Soviet Union fall.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Why do you insist on making stuff up? It's not the only way, but greater economic power can be achieved through cooperation with our neighbors.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth, you nwo mouthpiece.

The key to competitiveness is a good educational system, especially in math, science, and creative thinking. We also need to be more innovative, support scientific research, and do away with the anti-intellectual atmosphere pervading the country.

There's no anti-intellectual atmosphere pervading the country. You're just trying to demonize morality, which is someting we need more, not less of, especially to combat your NWO soullessness.

pssst... I have an idea. If you tap your ruby slippers together and say your wish three times, then maybe, just maybe, your wish will come true.

China is not becoming less totalitarian. You're lying.

If by best option you mean the best option to halt the advance of freedom, hurt capitalism, throw tens of millions into poverty, and hurt America.

No. I'm referring to hurting totalitarianism and helping ourselve by refusing to compete with inhumanity.

Dude, stopping trade didn't cause the collapse of the Soviet Union, just like ceasing trade didn't destroy North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Burma, China from 1949 through the late 70s, or the communist states of Eastern Europe, and it won't destroy the CCP in China. Trade embargos only allow the other country to demonize us and strengthen their hold on power. If you want to spread Communism, then sure, have an embargo, but I'm pro-freedom.

I disagree. I don't think providing open markets for their slave labor is good thing. And it IS how we defeated the ussr. We should deal with enemies the old fashioned way, embargos and war.

What destroyed the Soviet Union was the incredibly poor central planning that failed to deliver to the people of Russia.

So you believe in centralized planning, if done by the right regime. You're a communist.

Only when Gorbacov created glastnost and opened their economy to trade did the Soviet Union fall.

He was forced to open their economy and give up power BECAUSE of our locking them out.

You're lying when you saying individual freedom is growing in china. Continuing to feed their fascist regime in HOPES they will change is a fool's notion.

Thanks for showing the even greater depths of your depravity. It's quite eyeopening for many, I'm sure. You're been a useful tool in my crusade for the truth.

 

[Mr.Conley]

Hahaha... keep resisting, rtwng, and I'll be forced to have you eliminated. We wouldn't want that now would we. :cof: :teeth:

u're talking out of both sides of your mouth, you nwo mouthpiece.

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

You really like all of those, don't you.

There's no anti-intellectual atmosphere pervading the country. You're just trying to demonize morality, which is someting we need more, not less of, especially to combat your NWO soullessness.

You're talking about the wrong thing... again. I think Thomas Friedman said it best. When Bill Gates goes to India, he gets treated like he's Britney Spears (in say, the late 90s). In America, Britney Spears gets treated like Britney Spears. Now, I'm not saying anything about Britney Spears' singing abilities, but our youth culture that idolizes gangsta rap and action movie is at the same time putting down intellectual achievement and scholarship. In other countries, while they to have their pop stars and movie heroes, kids have heroes who are scientists, engineers, artists, and not just 50 cent. If we really want to be able to stay on top, regardless of who we trade with, our outlook on whose a role model is going to have to be less Snoop Dog and more Einstein.

China is not becoming less totalitarian. You're lying.

Well lets see, in 1970, the Chinese government told you where to live, what your job was, where you worked, who you talked to, and could kill you if you hadn't brought a certain little red book with you to the daily People's meeting. Today, thanks to capitalism and trade, none of these things is true. Now government corruption doesn't go unquestioned, the CCP can't kill people for talking to someone on the street, the provincial authorities continue to exert more and more independence and create the basis for a federal state. Rural farmers are calling for and getting a more equal distribution of wealth. The basis of a regulated, capitalistic society has emerged. Compare that to North Korea, which we still embargo and where all the things I've just described still happen, and you'll understand. The days of Mao have been over for 25 years rtwng. Let me be the first to welcome you to the 21st century.

I disagree. I don't think providing open markets for their slave labor is good thing. And it IS how we defeated the ussr. We should deal with enemies the old fashioned way, embargos and war.

Well, if it was slave labor, then it would be bad, but people in China decide where they want to work, and they get paid for it. It's called capitalism, ever heard of it?

Then how come the USSR didn't fall until we started trading with them? Until glasnost and perestrokia opened up the country? Until the inherent problems of central planning brought about shortages and economic collapse? We had no trade with the Soviet Union for 45 years, why didn't your vaunted embargo work then? Why didn't the Soviets fall until after we scrapped it?

No. I'm referring to hurting totalitarianism and helping ourselve by refusing to compete with inhumanity.

Just like the embargos of North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Myanmar, and Belarus we've had for 40+ years and are so quickly ending those dictatorships? Like the embargos that didn't do jack for destroying the Soviet Union or China when it really was a communist state? I'm sorry, but I'd rather use a proven methiod that works in years, not centuries, and leaves behind a prosperous, happy, democratic people like in South Korea, Spain, Portugal, Taiwan, and others. Not the destruction and strongmen we see now in North Korea and others. If you really wanted to free the people of the world, you'd do it the way America has done it for decades, by engaging them, their people, and their economies. Show them the fruits of a free, capitalistic society, and they will yearn for what they see, and throw off the yoke of their oppressors if they get in the way.

I disagree. I don't think providing open markets for their slave labor is good thing.

Well, if it was slave labor, then it would be bad, but people in China decide where they want to work, and they get paid for it. It's called capitalism, ever heard of it?

So you believe in centralized planning, if done by the right regime. You're a communist.

Hey, I can make stuff up too! You know how you said the word facist. Well facism is bad, and you said the word facist, so your a facist!

He was forced to open their economy and give up power BECAUSE of our locking them out.

He was forced to open the economy becaue central planning had failed. Then when the goods starting coming in, and people were finally exposed to the rest of the world. Then they saw what they were missing, and when the government started slowing them down , they overthrew it. It's when the Soviets opened up to market forces that they sealed their fate

Thanks for showing the even greater depths of your depravity. It's quite eyeopening for many, I'm sure. You're been a useful tool in my crusade for the truth.

hmhmhm... and thanks to you, we'll find those people and "remove" them as well. :teeth:
In a way you're right though, now everyone who reads this thread will realize how far off the deep end you've gone with this whole NWO thing.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Hahaha... keep resisting, rtwng, and I'll be forced to have you eliminated. We wouldn't want that now would we. :cof: :teeth:

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

You really like all of those, don't you.

You're the one inverting their meanings.

You're talking about the wrong thing... again. I think Thomas Friedman said it best. When Bill Gates goes to India, he gets treated like he's Britney Spears (in say, the late 90s). In America, Britney Spears gets treated like Britney Spears. Now, I'm not saying anything about Britney Spears' singing abilities, but our youth culture that idolizes gangsta rap and action movie is at the same time putting down intellectual achievement and scholarship. In other countries, while they to have their pop stars and movie heroes, kids have heroes who are scientists, engineers, artists, and not just 50 cent. If we really want to be able to stay on top, regardless of who we trade with, our outlook on whose a role model is going to have to be less Snoop Dog and more Einstein.

True. But we can do it. We should cease all trade with totalitarian nations.

Well lets see, in 1970, the Chinese government told you where to live, what your job was, where you worked, who you talked to, and could kill you if you hadn't brought a certain little red book with you to the daily People's meeting. Today, thanks to capitalism and trade, none of these things is true.

The people still have no rights on paper. Whatever freedoms they have now will be reduced as necessary to keep power and ensure trade superiority over the west. They will do what they must. There is still no free speech. You still cannot talk about Tianennmen square. They repress religions and thoughts of all kind. They are not free, they are fascist.

Now government corruption doesn't go unquestioned, the CCP can't kill people for talking to someone on the street, the provincial authorities continue to exert more and more independence and create the basis for a federal state. Rural farmers are calling for and getting a more equal distribution of wealth. The basis of a regulated, capitalistic society has emerged.

IT is still a totalitarian state, and we are their enabler. It's quite sick.

Compare that to North Korea, which we still embargo and where all the things I've just described still happen, and you'll understand. The days of Mao have been over for 25 years rtwng. Let me be the first to welcome you to the 21st century.

We limit the evil to their state, instead of forcing our citizens to compete with it. The embargo is a better idea.

Well, if it was slave labor, then it would be bad, but people in China decide where they want to work, and they get paid for it. It's called capitalism, ever heard of it?

There is still no free speech, or freedom of religion, or of the press, or of assembly. You're really sick.

Then how come the USSR didn't fall until we started trading with them? Until glasnost and perestrokia opened up the country? Until the inherent problems of central planning brought about shortages and economic collapse? We had no trade with the Soviet Union for 45 years, why didn't your vaunted embargo work then? Why didn't the Soviets fall until after we scrapped it?

Again, you're reversing the chain of causality. They opened up BECAUSE of our previous embargos.

Just like the embargos of North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Myanmar, and Belarus we've had for 40+ years and are so quickly ending those dictatorships?

I really don't care about ending the dictatorships. I'm happy with containing their evil to their borders instead of forcing us down to that level to compete. And again, china shows know signs of instituting meaningful individual freedoms. I know, as a lib, you don't value those.

Like the embargos that didn't do jack for destroying the Soviet Union or China when it really was a communist state? I'm sorry, but I'd rather use a proven methiod that works in years, not centuries, and leaves behind a prosperous, happy, democratic people like in South Korea, Spain, Portugal, Taiwan, and others. Not the destruction and strongmen we see now in North Korea and others. If you really wanted to free the people of the world, you'd do it the way America has done it for decades, by engaging them, their people, and their economies. Show them the fruits of a free, capitalistic society, and they will yearn for what they see, and throw off the yoke of their oppressors if they get in the way.

That sounds nice, but it just shows no signs of happening with the chinese. In fact, we have google contemplating the facilitation of censorship to get in the door. There are absolutely zero signs of china becoming freer. I'm sorry to stick a fork in your devilish plan, but it's done.

 

[Mr.Conley]

Well, I have to go to sleep (even the NWO needs at least 7 hours each night), so I'll have a full reply sometime tomorrow, but let me see if I've got this straight. You don't really care whether or not other people on the planet are free or not, just as long as it doesn't affect you. I'm basing this on the following quote.

"I really don't care about ending the dictatorships."

 

[Mr.Conley]

BTW, good work. You only posted one ad hominem in that last post.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Well, I have to go to sleep (even the NWO needs at least 7 hours each night), so I'll have a full reply sometime tomorrow, but let me see if I've got this straight. You don't really care whether or not other people on the planet are free or not, just as long as it doesn't affect you. I'm basing this on the following quote.

Of course, I would prefer us all to be free. But I reject your assertions that we MUST compete economically with totalitarians. I reject your assertion that trading with China is loosening the grip of the communist party. There is no evidence to that effect.

Freedom, not materialism, is the defining trait of America, and americans.

Cheap gadgetry is not worth the freedoms of future generations. We have all we need right here in our own borders. We can grow food, we can build homes, that is all we need. I reject the corporacratic fascist hell you claim is the only way.


p.s. Please tell us more about how the harvard pres was crucified not for his politics, but because he was an unseemly cad. That was hilarious.

 

[Mr.Conley]

Of course, I would prefer us all to be free.
That's good to know
But I reject your assertions that we MUST compete economically with totalitarians.
No one said we had to, but, if we want to remain a superpower, then we should.
I reject your assertion that trading with China is loosening the grip of the communist party. There is no evidence to that effect.

Lets see if you remember...
Well lets see, in 1970, the Chinese government told you where to live, what your job was, where you worked, who you talked to, and could kill you if you hadn't brought a certain little red book with you to the daily People's meeting. Today, thanks to capitalism and trade, none of these things is true. Now government corruption doesn't go unquestioned, the CCP can't kill people for talking to someone on the street, the provincial authorities continue to exert more and more independence and create the basis for a federal state. Rural farmers are calling for and getting a more equal distribution of wealth. The basis of a regulated, capitalistic society has emerged. Compare that to North Korea, which we still embargo and where all the things I've just described still happen, and you'll understand. The days of Mao have been over for 25 years rtwng. Let me be the first to welcome you to the 21st century.

Freedom, not materialism, is the defining trait of America, and americans.

And no one has said otherwise.

Cheap gadgetry is not worth the freedoms of future generations. We have all we need right here in our own borders. We can grow food, we can build homes, that is all we need. I reject the corporacratic fascist hell you claim is the only way.

If you want future generations to be free, then we have to engage the world now and show them what freedom has brought us and what freedom can do for them. You have to know what something is in order to want it.
Btw, we also need oil. We need about 20 million bpd. We only produce 7M bpd, and that number drops a little bit each year.

p.s. Please tell us more about how the harvard pres was crucified not for his politics, but because he was an unseemly cad. That was hilarious.

1. $20 million dollar investment scam with an economist friend.
2. Continued schoolwide complaints about his managing ability
3. The fact that he is a liberal raises doubts that in my mind that a liberal faculty could resent him for holding differing political opinions.

But hey, you would know better than anyone else. What with all the extensive investigative reporting and interviews you did with Summers, the faculty, and the students.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

And no one has said otherwise.


If you want future generations to be free, then we have to engage the world now and show them what freedom has brought us and what freedom can do for them. You have to know what something is in order to want it.
Btw, we also need oil. We need about 20 million bpd. We only produce 7M bpd, and that number drops a little bit each year.

They know exporting can make them rich. They are not going to give their people the level of freedoms we have. And when we try to compete they will become more and more inhumane to win. Will we do the same? You're implying we must be like them.

Competition should be based on the voluntary efforts and productivity of free people, not the degree of inhumanity of the competing corporate slave masters. This is called a moral stand. Look into it. Business must take place within some form of moral framework.

BOYCOTT CHINA NOW! EMBARGO OR BUST!

p.s. And you know you libs hated Summers because of his willingness to call you lib retards on your pc bs. That was at least PART of it.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I don't think children should sling crack and suck dick on the corner, does that make me "anti-business"?

 

[Mr.Conley]

They know exporting can make them rich. They are not going to give their people the level of freedoms we have. And when we try to compete they will become more and more inhumane to win. Will we do the same? You're implying we must be like them.

Competition should be based on the voluntary efforts and productivity of free people, not the degree of inhumanity of the competing corporate slave masters. This is called a moral stand. Look into it. Business must take place within some form of moral framework.

Where are you getting this whole slave labor deal from?

Do you have any proof that China uses slave labor on a widespread scale?

Do you have any proof that China will resort to inhumane labor conditions to hold up exports?

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Good lord, putting an embargo on China would be an awful idea.

First, it won't have the slightest effect on their leaders. People in Cuba may have to eat the bark off trees to survive, but you can bet that Fidel is a-okay. Trade sanctions would only give them a convenient scapegoat for the failures of their current system.

Second, they don't pose any sort of realistic threat to us. Unless maybe you're talking about the chinese central bank dumping dollars. Any war with us would be a disaster for both sides.

Third, it would be economic hell for US businesses that trade with China, probably setting off a greater depression.

Fourth, they are moving more towards capitalism, and have more freedoms than they did in years past. Enacting a trade war would upset this process.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Where are you getting this whole slave labor deal from?

Do you have any proof that China uses slave labor on a widespread scale?

Do you have any proof that China will resort to inhumane labor conditions to hold up exports?

They're a totalitarian nation. They do what they want. Of course they sign forms saying they don't do these things, but communists lie. I know for a fact the same thing happens in india on a lesser scale.

Let's flip it around. Where are the new guarantees of personal freedom? Are they being put into some form of constitution. NO. And they're still conducting raids against christians and falun gong people are in prison. Falun gong is like chinese scientology.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I've worked with people from china who had no idea what I was talking about when I asked them about Tianenmen Square. This was just a couple years ago.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/

Here's a relevant site. China Labor Watch! Perfect!

 

[Mr.Conley]

First, it won't have the slightest effect on their leaders. People in Cuba may have to eat the bark off trees to survive, but you can bet that Fidel is a-okay. Trade sanctions would only give them a convenient scapegoat for the failures of their current system.

Agreed, an embargo would just impoverish the citizenry, and spark a wave of Chinese nationalism and anti-Americanism, something the CCP would use to strengthen their hold on power. They may have to eat bark (something the elders have done before), but in their eyes, it'll be our, and by extension democracy and capitalism's, fault.

Second, they don't pose any sort of realistic threat to us. Unless maybe you're talking about the chinese central bank dumping dollars. Any war with us would be a disaster for both sides.

Correct, we're too powerful militarily for them to do anything. Plus if we be more innovative and more supportive of science and education at home, then we have nothing to worry about.

Third, it would be economic hell for US businesses that trade with China, probably setting off a greater depression.

Correct, we'd also see a massive manufacturing gap. We don't have the capacity to produce all the cheap junk we get from China on our own, and it would take years to build it. Plus, a lot of people wouldn't be able to afford the huge jump in prices. A lot of stores like Target, WalMart, and Sears, which rely on the cheap price of imports, would start losing massive amounts of money unless they significantly raised prices. Some would probably go belly up and destroy millions of jobs.

Fourth, they are moving more towards capitalism, and have more freedoms than they did in years past. Enacting a trade war would upset this process.

China is following the same path that Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, and numerous other countries have taken to democracy, all we have to do is wait.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Agreed, an embargo would just impoverish the citizenry, and spark a wave of Chinese nationalism and anti-Americanism, something the CCP would use to strengthen their hold on power. They may have to eat bark (something the elders have done before), but in their eyes, it'll be our, and by extension democracy and capitalism's, fault.

Or maybe they would overthrow them. Our billions of dollars only strengthens the totalitarian grip. They're not allowing more freedoms. That's just a whimsical notion.

Correct, we're too powerful militarily for them to do anything. Plus if we be more innovative and more supportive of science and education at home, then we have nothing to worry about.

If we can get the libs to quit ruining our educational system.

Correct, we'd also see a massive manufacturing gap. We don't have the capacity to produce all the cheap junk we get from China on our own, and it would take years to build it.

It's worth taking the time to do so. We can do it with robotics and nuclear power.

Plus, a lot of people wouldn't be able to afford the huge jump in prices. A lot of stores like Target, WalMart, and Sears, which rely on the cheap price of imports, would start losing massive amounts of money unless they significantly raised prices. Some would probably go belly up and destroy millions of jobs.

True, until we develop the production capacity to get prices down there would be price increases. We might have to do with less stuff. This is where we go back to what defines america: freedom, not materialism.

China is following the same path that Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, and numerous other countries have taken to democracy, all we have to do is wait.

No. Just as you mentioned the plan is to convince americans we MUST compete with totalitarians, dissolve our borders, lower wages, enslave the mexicans..... etc, etc.

The New World Order: Just Say No!

 

[007]

WHAT DOES WAL-MART REALLY COST YOU?


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What is Wal-Mart’s impact to our environment, to U.S labor standards, to small town America?

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Here are just a few of the most important issues that serve as the foundation of our work:

HEALTH CARE
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WOMEN
Wal-Mart is the subject of the largest class action lawsuit in history by current and former female employees who were paid and promoted at significantly lower rates than their male co-workers. Read more.

OUTSOURCING
If Wal-Mart were an independent nation, it would be China’s eighth-largest trading partner. Is Wal-Mart trading away America's future to fatten its corporate bottom line? Read more.

LOCAL ECONOMIES
For every new Supercenter that Wal-Mart opens, two local supermarkets will close. How will this affect your town? Big box stores like Wal-Mart spend nearly four times less within local and state economies as local businesses do. Read more.

WORKERS
The average pay for a Wal-Mart sales associate is $1,000 below the poverty line for a family of three. Business as usual? Not necessarily. Retail rival Costco pays its workers 65% more on average than Wal-Mart, yet earns more profits per employee. Read more.

DISCRIMINATION
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ENVIRONMENT
Wal-Mart has a long history of breaking environmental laws that its high-priced green-washing campaign can't hide. Its record of environmental abuse was described by one top law enforcement official as "widespread, systematic, repeated" and has incurred millions in fines from state and federal agencies. Read more.

UNCHECKED GROWTH
Think Wal-Marts are everywhere you turn today? Just wait five years. Wal-Mart plans to nearly double its retail outlets in the U.S. by 2010 and has already demonstrated its willingness to play hardball with anyone who stands in its way. Read more.

http://walmartwatch.com/home/pages/issues

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Or maybe they would overthrow them. Our billions of dollars only strengthens the totalitarian grip. They're not allowing more freedoms. That's just a whimsical notion.

You can't be serious. They are certainly more free than they were only 20 years ago. And if anything is a whimsical notion, it is the idea that A) people blame the misery of a US embargo on their rulers, and not uncle Sam; and B) they will have the resources to leave home and fight a guerilla war against their own government, while their families are starving because of an embargo. Seriously, embargos don't do shit.

America can compete just fine with other countries; our troubles are centered on our fiat currency system. Our leaders have given us a system in which we have essentially exported our inflation, by getting foreign central banks to (basically) buy our dollar-based debt. It devalues the dollar, but devalues foreign currency even more, so they maintain an artificial edge in manufacturing. (a relatively strong currency means you will be importing goods). But they can only control where the new money goes (the dot-com bubble in the 90's, then the housing bubble, and now commodities) to a certain extent, but now we're starting to see general prices go up substantially. So lost jobs and higher prices basically.

If/when this system collapses, you can bet that their first "reform" the money powers will clamor for is a common one-world currency. Which would actually be a great thing if it were based on a common commodity like gold. No, they will be pushing for a one world electronic/paper fiat currency they can manipulate.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You can't be serious. They are certainly more free than they were only 20 years ago. And if anything is a whimsical notion, it is the idea that A) people blame the misery of a US embargo on their rulers, and not uncle Sam; and B) they will have the resources to leave home and fight a guerilla war against their own government, while their families are starving because of an embargo. Seriously, embargos don't do shit.

America can compete just fine with other countries; our troubles are centered on our fiat currency system. Our leaders have given us a system in which we have essentially exported our inflation, by getting foreign central banks to (basically) buy our dollar-based debt. It devalues the dollar, but devalues foreign currency even more, so they maintain an artificial edge in manufacturing. (a relatively strong currency means you will be importing goods). But they can only control where the new money goes (the dot-com bubble in the 90's, then the housing bubble, and now commodities) to a certain extent, but now we're starting to see general prices go up substantially. So lost jobs and higher prices basically.

If/when this system collapses, you can bet that their first "reform" the money powers will clamor for is a common one-world currency. Which would actually be a great thing if it were based on a common commodity like gold. No, they will be pushing for a one world electronic/paper fiat currency they can manipulate.

They have more stuff, they are not more free, there is a difference. Once agian, freedom is being equated with materialism. This is satan's ploy.

You want to trade with china but go back to the gold standard? You're all messed up.

We only enable the totalitarians with our billions in trade. Sorry, that's how I see it. They're not really communisty anymore more. They're totalitarian fascists who won't give their people basic modern freedoms of speech, religion, press, or thought.