Democrat Wants to Ban Body Armor for the Public

[Jarlaxle]

Done that. Went through the windshield (from a 1984 Ford B700 school bus, pitted to hell bit intact) like paper and shattered against the backstop. (Solid cast lead bullet.)

The .22-250 has enormous KE...it's light (40-55 grains), but the high velocity (4000+fps) makes for high energy.

OTOH, I'm not sure anything short of a mecha suit would stop a .577 T-rex. That's 750 grains at 2500fps...about four times the power of a .308 rifle round.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Always been restrictions on who can purchase body armor. Was a thing when I was still on the job 20+ years ago.

Really? Where? The only limitations I've ever seen is your pocket book. I have a IIIa vest with a level IV plate. Expensive, but I value my life.

Would even that stop a high-powered rifle round? Something like a .375 Ackley, .458, or a .22-250?

Yes, it will stop those as well. A threat IV plate is rated to stop 7.62X51 NATO armor piercing ammunition.

Serious question: are you familiar with a .22-250?

Note that a .243 or .22-250 loaded with softpoints will punch through a 1/2" steel plate like paper.

Of course...if that isn't enough, there is always the .577 Tyrannosaur...

That's a varmint round. If it can really perforate steel plates, you should be able to provide a link for that. I know the round is a tiny bullet with a large casing, but while that provides for a high velocity flight, it doesn't give it any more penetrating power on impact. I was interested in the Wikipedia article on it, Australian Special Air Service used this round specifically for its reduced penetration and ricochet.

 

[Jarlaxle]

My uncle and I (both of us have target rifles in .22-250) used scraps of 1/2" steel plate for long-range targets. The rounds (cast lead handloads) punched cleanly through the plates. His brother's 6mm (.244 Remington) did the same. It's the formula for KE: half the mass, multiplied by the velocity squared. Velocity is therefore MUCH more critical than mass.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

My uncle and I (both of us have target rifles in .22-250) used scraps of 1/2" steel plate for long-range targets. The rounds (cast lead handloads) punched cleanly through the plates. His brother's 6mm (.244 Remington) did the same. It's the formula for KE: half the mass, multiplied by the velocity squared. Velocity is therefore MUCH more critical than mass.

Well it appears that I'm wrong and I'm willing to admit it. I found this VERY interesting, right through 3/8" steel:

 

[Jarlaxle]

As I said: half the mass, multiplied by the velocity squared. Velocity is therefore MUCH more critical than mass. A .22-250 and a 6mm can both top 4000fps.

 

[westwall]

My uncle and I (both of us have target rifles in .22-250) used scraps of 1/2" steel plate for long-range targets. The rounds (cast lead handloads) punched cleanly through the plates. His brother's 6mm (.244 Remington) did the same. It's the formula for KE: half the mass, multiplied by the velocity squared. Velocity is therefore MUCH more critical than mass.

I have a real problem with this post. Cast lead bullets CAN be made relatively hard, but when they hit a solid steel plate, especially one of 1/2 inch thickness, they deform and melt. They will punch the hole, but almost all of the projectile will splash back in the direction of the shot and the behind armor effect is negligible. Further the lead has a real hard time being pushed that fast. They will quite literally explode from the centrifugal forces imparted as they travel down the barrel. That was a giant problem with the .220 Swift cartridge. The bullets of that era were simply not capable of handling the enormous stresses of being launched at 4,000 fps. And those were jacketed bullets.


The other big problem of pushing bullets at that sort of velocity is the barrel life is measured in hundreds of rounds. The bore erosion at 4,000 fps is incredible. I averaged about 600 rounds in my .220 before I had to change the barrels.

 

[westwall]

My uncle and I (both of us have target rifles in .22-250) used scraps of 1/2" steel plate for long-range targets. The rounds (cast lead handloads) punched cleanly through the plates. His brother's 6mm (.244 Remington) did the same. It's the formula for KE: half the mass, multiplied by the velocity squared. Velocity is therefore MUCH more critical than mass.

Well it appears that I'm wrong and I'm willing to admit it. I found this VERY interesting, right through 3/8" steel:

The plate is not hardened, it's mild steel no matter what they are saying. They simply don't know. I would love to know which projectile they were using though. Probably the 52 grain Hornady. As can be seen though, there is only splash that makes it out the other side.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

My uncle and I (both of us have target rifles in .22-250) used scraps of 1/2" steel plate for long-range targets. The rounds (cast lead handloads) punched cleanly through the plates. His brother's 6mm (.244 Remington) did the same. It's the formula for KE: half the mass, multiplied by the velocity squared. Velocity is therefore MUCH more critical than mass.

Well it appears that I'm wrong and I'm willing to admit it. I found this VERY interesting, right through 3/8" steel:

The plate is not hardened, it's mild steel no matter what they are saying. They simply don't know. I would love to know which projectile they were using though. Probably the 52 grain Hornady. As can be seen though, there is only splash that makes it out the other side.

They actually said what ammunition they were using. In this video, he uses two different types, a 55 grain solid and a 50 grain JHP. Both the steel plate and a cinder block are penetrated:



But in my search for videos, what was equally enlightening was what I didn't find, videos put out by body armor manufacturers showing their plates successfully stopping a 22-250 round.

And I admit I suck at math, but the video I first posted actually shows the statistical data on the shot.

But there's something more to consider. Even if you're right and it wasn't hardened steel, it was still 3/8", meaning that a thinner trauma plate like the kind we wear in our vests, might not offer protection even if it's a tougher alloy.

I'm not saying I know for sure, because a lot of this just goes beyond my level of knowledge.

 

[Jarlaxle]

My uncle and I (both of us have target rifles in .22-250) used scraps of 1/2" steel plate for long-range targets. The rounds (cast lead handloads) punched cleanly through the plates. His brother's 6mm (.244 Remington) did the same. It's the formula for KE: half the mass, multiplied by the velocity squared. Velocity is therefore MUCH more critical than mass.

I have a real problem with this post. Cast lead bullets CAN be made relatively hard, but when they hit a solid steel plate, especially one of 1/2 inch thickness, they deform and melt. They will punch the hole, but almost all of the projectile will splash back in the direction of the shot and the behind armor effect is negligible. Further the lead has a real hard time being pushed that fast. They will quite literally explode from the centrifugal forces imparted as they travel down the barrel. That was a giant problem with the .220 Swift cartridge. The bullets of that era were simply not capable of handling the enormous stresses of being launched at 4,000 fps. And those were jacketed bullets.

My uncle's are harder than most...he quenches them when he casts to harden the outside.

The other big problem of pushing bullets at that sort of velocity is the barrel life is measured in hundreds of rounds. The bore erosion at 4,000 fps is incredible. I averaged about 600 rounds in my .220 before I had to change the barrels.

Any high-velocity rifle will wear out the barrel quickly...the nature of the beast.

 

[Jarlaxle]

They actually said what ammunition they were using. In this video, he uses two different types, a 55 grain solid and a 50 grain JHP. Both the steel plate and a cinder block are penetrated:



But in my search for videos, what was equally enlightening was what I didn't find, videos put out by body armor manufacturers showing their plates successfully stopping a 22-250 round.

And I admit I suck at math, but the video I first posted actually shows the statistical data on the shot.

But there's something more to consider. Even if you're right and it wasn't hardened steel, it was still 3/8", meaning that a thinner trauma plate like the kind we wear in our vests, might not offer protection even if it's a tougher alloy.

I'm not saying I know for sure, because a lot of this just goes beyond my level of knowledge.

I damn sure wouldn't want to be the dude wearing it for the test!

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

They actually said what ammunition they were using. In this video, he uses two different types, a 55 grain solid and a 50 grain JHP. Both the steel plate and a cinder block are penetrated:



But in my search for videos, what was equally enlightening was what I didn't find, videos put out by body armor manufacturers showing their plates successfully stopping a 22-250 round.

And I admit I suck at math, but the video I first posted actually shows the statistical data on the shot.

But there's something more to consider. Even if you're right and it wasn't hardened steel, it was still 3/8", meaning that a thinner trauma plate like the kind we wear in our vests, might not offer protection even if it's a tougher alloy.

I'm not saying I know for sure, because a lot of this just goes beyond my level of knowledge.

I damn sure wouldn't want to be the dude wearing it for the test!

All the trauma plates I've ever used have never inspired confidence, they always seemed so flimsy. I was more confident with the kevlar plates we used in the Army on the grenade and rifle ranges.

 

[percysunshine]

.
"Democrat Wants to Ban Body Armor for the Public"

If we call them 'Ultra-hard Condoms', we can probably get HHS to pay for them.

.

 

[westwall]

My uncle and I (both of us have target rifles in .22-250) used scraps of 1/2" steel plate for long-range targets. The rounds (cast lead handloads) punched cleanly through the plates. His brother's 6mm (.244 Remington) did the same. It's the formula for KE: half the mass, multiplied by the velocity squared. Velocity is therefore MUCH more critical than mass.

Well it appears that I'm wrong and I'm willing to admit it. I found this VERY interesting, right through 3/8" steel:

The plate is not hardened, it's mild steel no matter what they are saying. They simply don't know. I would love to know which projectile they were using though. Probably the 52 grain Hornady. As can be seen though, there is only splash that makes it out the other side.

They actually said what ammunition they were using. In this video, he uses two different types, a 55 grain solid and a 50 grain JHP. Both the steel plate and a cinder block are penetrated:



But in my search for videos, what was equally enlightening was what I didn't find, videos put out by body armor manufacturers showing their plates successfully stopping a 22-250 round.

And I admit I suck at math, but the video I first posted actually shows the statistical data on the shot.

But there's something more to consider. Even if you're right and it wasn't hardened steel, it was still 3/8", meaning that a thinner trauma plate like the kind we wear in our vests, might not offer protection even if it's a tougher alloy.

I'm not saying I know for sure, because a lot of this just goes beyond my level of knowledge.

Hardened plates are vastly harder to punch a hole through than mild steel. Typically when they are struck by .223 rounds there is merely a splash mark where the projectile disintigrated. Even .308 rounds will leave only a slight mark. I shot my .220 Swift on some steel plates back in the day just to see what would happen and they went right through the 3/8ths plate I had. They made a huge dish mark in the 1/2 inch with just a touch of penetration. Behind armor effect would have been nil.

What was fun is a friend of mine was on the board of directors at FMC so I got to shoot against some of their aluminum armor they were using for the Bradley. Side armor was easily punched. Front armor was never penetrated but it did make a huge divot in the armor.

 

[Muhammed]

Body armor is not even a weapon. Nobody has ever been killed by body armor. Democrats are scumbags.

 

[westwall]

My uncle and I (both of us have target rifles in .22-250) used scraps of 1/2" steel plate for long-range targets. The rounds (cast lead handloads) punched cleanly through the plates. His brother's 6mm (.244 Remington) did the same. It's the formula for KE: half the mass, multiplied by the velocity squared. Velocity is therefore MUCH more critical than mass.

I have a real problem with this post. Cast lead bullets CAN be made relatively hard, but when they hit a solid steel plate, especially one of 1/2 inch thickness, they deform and melt. They will punch the hole, but almost all of the projectile will splash back in the direction of the shot and the behind armor effect is negligible. Further the lead has a real hard time being pushed that fast. They will quite literally explode from the centrifugal forces imparted as they travel down the barrel. That was a giant problem with the .220 Swift cartridge. The bullets of that era were simply not capable of handling the enormous stresses of being launched at 4,000 fps. And those were jacketed bullets.

My uncle's are harder than most...he quenches them when he casts to harden the outside.

The other big problem of pushing bullets at that sort of velocity is the barrel life is measured in hundreds of rounds. The bore erosion at 4,000 fps is incredible. I averaged about 600 rounds in my .220 before I had to change the barrels.

Any high-velocity rifle will wear out the barrel quickly...the nature of the beast.

Not true. Depending on the alloy of the barrel you can get usable barrel life of up to 18,000 rounds. It all depends on how hard you use them. Pushing bullets to 4,000 fps is very wasteful. The term used is "over bore" and it refers to the burning of powder outside the barrel. The amount of powder used to go from 3300 fps to 4000 fps is quite a bit. I haven't loaded for the Swift in a while now but IIRC with Accurate 2700 powder it was 9 grains or so. I want to say it was around 45 grains to get it up to 4000 fps. Barrel life at those levels though is very short. Under 700 rounds so I tend to load to around 3500 fps. Barrel life jumps up to 3000 rounds or so and the terminal ballistics are close enough.

 

[westwall]

They actually said what ammunition they were using. In this video, he uses two different types, a 55 grain solid and a 50 grain JHP. Both the steel plate and a cinder block are penetrated:



But in my search for videos, what was equally enlightening was what I didn't find, videos put out by body armor manufacturers showing their plates successfully stopping a 22-250 round.

And I admit I suck at math, but the video I first posted actually shows the statistical data on the shot.

But there's something more to consider. Even if you're right and it wasn't hardened steel, it was still 3/8", meaning that a thinner trauma plate like the kind we wear in our vests, might not offer protection even if it's a tougher alloy.

I'm not saying I know for sure, because a lot of this just goes beyond my level of knowledge.

I damn sure wouldn't want to be the dude wearing it for the test!

All the trauma plates I've ever used have never inspired confidence, they always seemed so flimsy. I was more confident with the kevlar plates we used in the Army on the grenade and rifle ranges.

.22-250 will punch a hole through 20 layers of kev 129 like it's not even there. I think to stop even a .223 you have to get up to around 70 layers of Kevlar. Hell the 7.62X25 Tokarev as used in the TT33 and the VZ 52 pistols, requires 48 layers to stop.

 

[asaratis]

A well placed head shot makes the body armor useless....except when you're standing up and get shot in the head, you fall a bit quicker.

 

[Jarlaxle]

They actually said what ammunition they were using. In this video, he uses two different types, a 55 grain solid and a 50 grain JHP. Both the steel plate and a cinder block are penetrated:



But in my search for videos, what was equally enlightening was what I didn't find, videos put out by body armor manufacturers showing their plates successfully stopping a 22-250 round.

And I admit I suck at math, but the video I first posted actually shows the statistical data on the shot.

But there's something more to consider. Even if you're right and it wasn't hardened steel, it was still 3/8", meaning that a thinner trauma plate like the kind we wear in our vests, might not offer protection even if it's a tougher alloy.

I'm not saying I know for sure, because a lot of this just goes beyond my level of knowledge.

I damn sure wouldn't want to be the dude wearing it for the test!

All the trauma plates I've ever used have never inspired confidence, they always seemed so flimsy. I was more confident with the kevlar plates we used in the Army on the grenade and rifle ranges.

.22-250 will punch a hole through 20 layers of kev 129 like it's not even there. I think to stop even a .223 you have to get up to around 70 layers of Kevlar. Hell the 7.62X25 Tokarev as used in the TT33 and the VZ 52 pistols, requires 48 layers to stop.

What would it take to stop a .577 Tyrannosaur?

 

[westwall]

They actually said what ammunition they were using. In this video, he uses two different types, a 55 grain solid and a 50 grain JHP. Both the steel plate and a cinder block are penetrated:



But in my search for videos, what was equally enlightening was what I didn't find, videos put out by body armor manufacturers showing their plates successfully stopping a 22-250 round.

And I admit I suck at math, but the video I first posted actually shows the statistical data on the shot.

But there's something more to consider. Even if you're right and it wasn't hardened steel, it was still 3/8", meaning that a thinner trauma plate like the kind we wear in our vests, might not offer protection even if it's a tougher alloy.

I'm not saying I know for sure, because a lot of this just goes beyond my level of knowledge.

I damn sure wouldn't want to be the dude wearing it for the test!

All the trauma plates I've ever used have never inspired confidence, they always seemed so flimsy. I was more confident with the kevlar plates we used in the Army on the grenade and rifle ranges.

.22-250 will punch a hole through 20 layers of kev 129 like it's not even there. I think to stop even a .223 you have to get up to around 70 layers of Kevlar. Hell the 7.62X25 Tokarev as used in the TT33 and the VZ 52 pistols, requires 48 layers to stop.

What would it take to stop a .577 Tyrannosaur?

I don't know. The monolithic solid projectile will give fairly good penetration against Kevlar. My guess is over 120 layers. But that is a total guess.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Even if it STOPPED the round...would the wearer survive?