Deal or no deal? Repeal or no repeal?

[Greenbeard]

As for wouldn't the nation run on conservative principles be wonderful, it pretty much did up to Teddy Roosevelt. It has been slowly unraveling ever since. Until then we had made America the fastest growing, most prosperous, most innovative, most inventive, most productive, most generous, and biggest economy in the world, we had the best educated and biggest middle class in the world, Mom could stay home with the kids if she wanted to, and there was nothing but bright futures ahead of everybody.

The entire 20th century was a period of decline for the United States in your view?

 

[EriktheRed]

As for wouldn't the nation run on conservative principles be wonderful, it pretty much did up to Teddy Roosevelt. It has been slowly unraveling ever since. Until then we had made America the fastest growing, most prosperous, most innovative, most inventive, most productive, most generous, and biggest economy in the world, we had the best educated and biggest middle class in the world, Mom could stay home with the kids if she wanted to, and there was nothing but bright futures ahead of everybody. We had corrected most of our worst faults and had room for everybody to prosper.

You've said this before and I asked if you thought the laws encted during Teddy Roosevelt's time jsut happened in a vacuum. You never answered.

Either way, I can't see how you can say something like this, especially since our best times were yet to come. We're not going back to a time when employers could abuse their workers or the "captains of industry" could pollute and sell dangerous products with impunity.


I'm guessing that a lot of self-identified Republicans/Libertarians who don't how know things were when the progressive era laws were passed would think twice about their views if they did.

 

[Immanuel]

You're projecting your worldview on to others against, except it's liberals this time and not the Founding Fathers. Just because you think the government is the source of all problems in the world does not mean people who disagree with you think the government is the cure for all problems.

Then why is every solution to a problem proposed by liberals bigger government?

It's not.

Yes, it is... if the liberals we are talking about are the ones in Washington. Come to think of it, that pretty much applies to so called conservatives in Washington too.

We're screwed!

Immie

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Non-Statists should make the repeal of ObamaCare their theme this fall

 

[Foxfyre]

As for wouldn't the nation run on conservative principles be wonderful, it pretty much did up to Teddy Roosevelt. It has been slowly unraveling ever since. Until then we had made America the fastest growing, most prosperous, most innovative, most inventive, most productive, most generous, and biggest economy in the world, we had the best educated and biggest middle class in the world, Mom could stay home with the kids if she wanted to, and there was nothing but bright futures ahead of everybody.

The entire 20th century was a period of decline for the United States in your view?

An erosion or decline in conservative principles yes. A decline in growth and prosperity all that time. Of course not. But in the world of good intentions producing unintended negative consequences, some of those negatives have taken decades to be admitted as serious problems. Think Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, all implemented with good intentions, and all now unsustainable as they are.

So far as pure Conservatism being pushed, probably the brightest spot in all that was with Coolidge who was an old fashioned classical liberal (i.e. conservative) and he was pretty true to his convictions about that.

It takes awhile--sometimes a long while--for changes in policy and mindset to become part of the permanent machinery. And it started out very slowly--just a little bit here--a little bit there--with the Federal government slowly but surely increasing in size, scope, authority, and cost. It has been gaining serious momentum for some decades now.

And one day it dawns on us how much of the American public is no longer free because it is so dependent on big government with the government grabbing for more and more power over what the people will and will not do and consuming more and more of the people's resources. And then we wake up one morning to trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see, and wondering if we will ever recover from that, while our elected leaders seem oblivious to the danger and are pushing for even bigger, more intrusive, more expensive programs.

It's nuts.

 

[JakeStarkey]

All of the social programs are sustainable if the congress would stop dropping their money into the general fund. Use the money for what it is dedicated for, instead of waging a stupidly-conceived war in Iraq (no other way to define it), a poorly executed war in Afghanistan, raising deficits, and turning the back on the corporatists on Wall Street who took so many greedy Americans for a ride.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sometimes, just reading the posts on message boards, you would think so. But you know what? Liberals are Americans too. And I think at some level they value their freedom as much as the next person.

I wish I could agree, but I can't.

Liberals place more importance on the collective than on the individual. And for the collective good, they're willing to give up freedom.

But I think liberals really do look to government to cure all of societal ills and, so long as those in government want to force people to do what liberals want them to do, they are all for it. Liberals despise government that supports and promotes or orders what liberals don't support just as much as conservatives do though.

Exactly. And the current crop of liberals have not for a moment considered what's going to happen when conservatives take over this government whose power has been greatly expanded.

Liberals live in the now. They don't learn from history (they can't, otherwise they wouldn't cling to policies that have been proven failures time and again), and they don't look to the future (see current deficit for proof of that).

Other than that necessary to secure an defend our rights, Conservatives see all government authority as dangerous to personal freedoms and the American way and don't want government forcing people to do much of anything even if it is something conservatives would like to see happen. The price for that is simply too high. Secure and defend our rights, enforce the laws necessary to do that, and do what governments do to promote the general welfare--meaning equally for everybody--and then just stop. Don't do any more. Let the people govern themselves and create the kind of society they want to have.

And think how wonderful America would be if she were run like that!

But no. Liberals see the government as a tool to remake society in their image (or else!). Because they can't live independently, they think others can't, either, so advocate a nanny state to have control over individual lives.

The left has given us the failed War on Poverty (trillions spent now, and all it's done is create a permanent dependent class), a failing economy, and a weaker nation.

Democrats can't be trusted with power. They screw it up. Every time.

Your principles, daveman, would devastate the citizens of the U.S. That won't happen.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

All of the social programs are sustainable if the congress would stop dropping their money into the general fund. Use the money for what it is dedicated for, instead of waging a stupidly-conceived war in Iraq (no other way to define it), a poorly executed war in Afghanistan, raising deficits, and turning the back on the corporatists on Wall Street who took so many greedy Americans for a ride.

Are you still pretending to be a Republican?

 

[Foxfyre]

The latest Rasmussen Poll shows that this issue is likely not going to be buried. Look for it to be back on the front pages prior to the November election:

Health Care Law

60% Favor Repeal of Health Care Law, Just 41% See Repeal as Likely
Monday, July 05, 2010

Sixty percent (60%) of voters nationwide favor repeal of the recently passed health care law, including 49% who Strongly Favor repeal.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 36% oppose repeal. That figure includes 24% who are Strongly Opposed.

Forty-three percent (43%) believe repeal would be good for the nation’s economy. Twenty-seven percent (27%) believe repeal would be bad for the economy, while 20% say it would have no impact.

Foxfyre emphasized this as the 'money statement'"
Political Class voters strongly believe repeal would be bad for the economy, while most Mainstream Americans think repeal would help the economy.

Despite the ongoing support for repeal, just 41% believe the law is even somewhat likely to be repealed. Forty-five percent (45%) say repeal is unlikely. In April, however, 51% considered repeal unlikely.

The current figures show 13% consider repeal Very Likely, while 10% say it is Not at all Likely. In April, those figures were 11% and 18% respectively.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law

 

[JakeStarkey]

Health care reform will have little impact on this election. Americans are beginning to understand the Republican right wing lied through its collective mouth about it. This is a good bill, it is a good start, more will be added to it. Blame the health insurance industry and its costs for coming between patients and their doctors. The GOP had 12 years to enact something and failed to do so.

That basically is going to be the Dems talking points, and the GOP cannot refute them sensibly.

 

[Immanuel]

Health care reform will have little impact on this election. Americans are beginning to understand the Republican right wing lied through its collective mouth about it. This is a good bill, it is a good start, more will be added to it. Blame the health insurance industry and its costs for coming between patients and their doctors. The GOP had 12 years to enact something and failed to do so.

That basically is going to be the Dems talking points, and the GOP cannot refute them sensibly.

I agree it will have little effect on this election and even the 2012 election. It won't be until 2014 when the public realizes the screwing we took in 2009, that they will hold it against the Democrats.

Immie

 

[JakeStarkey]

Yes, if the Dems not carry through and don't cost contain, not only HC, but government generally by 2014, the Pubs will beat them into the ground.

 

[Foxfyre]

Health care reform will have little impact on this election. Americans are beginning to understand the Republican right wing lied through its collective mouth about it. This is a good bill, it is a good start, more will be added to it. Blame the health insurance industry and its costs for coming between patients and their doctors. The GOP had 12 years to enact something and failed to do so.

That basically is going to be the Dems talking points, and the GOP cannot refute them sensibly.

I agree it will have little effect on this election and even the 2012 election. It won't be until 2014 when the public realizes the screwing we took in 2009, that they will hold it against the Democrats.

Immie

It all depends on who wins the propaganda war. If Obama is successful in creating or utilizing hot button issue after hot button issue to keep healthcare reform off the front pages, it will make it tougher for the serious pro-repeal people to get much traction.

If the anti-repeal group is able to marginalize, diminish, or make the pro-repeal group look like raving hysterical ideologues, it could put off voters who might otherwise consider pro-repeal when they vote in November.

If the Tea Partiers and other organized pro-repeal groups are able to play it smart and keep it out there intelligently, however, I think it can and will make a difference.

It is no accident that Obama designed the ugliest parts--which is most of it--to go into effect after 2012 and his re-election campaign. And it is no accident that he is pushing lots of stuff right now to make sure that healthcare stays off the front page. That makes it really easy for short memory Americans to forget what's coming on down the line if we don't derail it now. The smart pro-repeal group will find a way to look reasonable but keep the issue out there where it won't be forgotten.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Dems can easily defend HC reform and easily demonize the GOP for allowing the situation to happen.

The Tea Party, not the GOP or HC, is the wild card. If it can get is anti-tax, anti-Big Government message out there without having to keep defending the daveman, Crusader Frank, the Fits nonsense, the TP may have a real defining impact.