Critique of Intelligent Design

[Leo123]

This is a good place to link Broocks mentioning Dawkins, because origin-of-life researchers also mention Dawkins which is the astrobiology connection. The essay we will be quoting from is Iris Fry, "Philosophical Aspects of the Origin-of-Life Problem: Neither by Chance Nor by Design" (Handbook of Astrobiology, 3.1)

Experiments have failed to create any kind of natural guiding DNA that can assemble molecules in such a way to be self replicating in any certain order. 'Successful' replications do not result in anything planned or useful, just lifeless sludge. Currently, the ONLY way we can start to replicate life is using material from other live cells.

 

[badger2]

Experiments have failed to create any kind of natural guiding DNA that can assemble molecules in such a way to be self replicating in any certain order. 'Successful' replications do not result in anything planned or useful, just lifeless sludge. Currently, the ONLY way we can start to replicate life is using material from other live cells.

'For example, most "template copying experiments have been....performed in solution," not within a membrane-engulfed compartment. However, the need for spatial localization is now commonly accepted by RNA-world researchers, not only because it allows concentration of the ingredients of life but especially also because it enables the emergence of Darwinian evolution. It is realized that a population of RNA replicating molecules free in solution could not have evolved into more efficient or accurate replicators.

Indeed, this change in perception proved itself fruitful. As shown in Chapter 6.5, the Szostak group demonstrated growth, division, and competition among vesicles containing RNA replicating molecules as a result of various physico-chemical mechanisms.'
(Fry, Philosophical Aspects of the Origin-of-Life Problem, Handbook of Astrobiology)

 

[Leo123]

'For example, most "template copying experiments have been....performed in solution," not within a membrane-engulfed compartment. However, the need for spatial localization is now commonly accepted by RNA-world researchers, not only because it allows concentration of the ingredients of life but especially also because it enables the emergence of Darwinian evolution. It is realized that a population of RNA replicating molecules free in solution could not have evolved into more efficient or accurate replicators.

Indeed, this change in perception proved itself fruitful. As shown in Chapter 6.5, the Szostak group demonstrated growth, division, and competition among vesicles containing RNA replicating molecules as a result of various physico-chemical mechanisms.'
(Fry, Philosophical Aspects of the Origin-of-Life Problem, Handbook of Astrobiology)

I am aware of experiments with lipids as encapsulation vesicles however, replication has been too random to create any useful organism as yet. Also I would want to know if any of the ingredients came from any other living cell or have been modified by human touch.

 

[badger2]

We double-excerpt Dawkins and make the Francis Collins link to Dawkins:

'The debate was between Francis Collins, a geneticist and a Christian who wrote about the fantastic evidence for intelligence found in DNA in the book The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, and Richard Dawkins, a biologist and an atheist. Collins breaks the stereotype of a closed-minded religious person that Dawkins characterizes as people of faith....we seek those who possess religious conviction but also scientific achievements to credibly argue the widespread hope that science and God are in harmony --that, indeed, science is God.'
(Broocks, op cit. p. 23)

'First, Nagel noted that Dawkins acknowledged the problem or "paradox" inherent in the attempt to provide a natural explanation for the origin of life, that is, the need for and, at the same time, the impossibility of applying evolution prior to life. Nagel and Dawkins thus agree in rejecting any involvement of an evolutionary process in the origin of life.
....
As to Dawkins's one-in-a-billion-billion statistics, Nagel criticized his calculation for being too probable: The genetic material is so staggeringly complex that "no one has a theory that would support anything remotely near such a high probability as one in a billion billion.

Referring to the argument from design, Nagel commented that it was prompted by the "overwhelming improbability" of life coming into existence by chance, "simply by the purposeless laws of physics." Claiming that science has no alternative to chance, Nagel asserted that (the problem of the origin of life is the reason "why the argument from design is still alive" [italics]).

Though Nagel is mistaken and science does have an evolutionary alternative to chance, his evaluation of Dawkins's attempt to account for the origin of life by a single chance event accurately addresses Dawkins's problem. Here in a nutshell, in Nagel's words, is the reason why Dawkins's position fails in confronting the argument from design. Dawkins's contention that chance on a cosmological scale is a valid explanation for the origin of life is not based on a serious examination of scenarios offered by researchers in the field.

His position thus draws attention away from such evolutionary scenarios and strengthens the IDers' cause of bringing back the argument from design, this time based on the "DNA enigma." By implying that chance and design are the only explanatory options of the emergence of life, Dawkins unwillingly encourages both religious and "natural" teleological views.'
(Fry, op cit p. 120)

 

[badger2]

I am aware of experiments with lipids as encapsulation vesicles however, replication has been too random to create any useful organism as yet. Also I would want to know if any of the ingredients came from any other living cell or have been modified by human touch.

Well for certain, the RNA was synthesized in the lab as were the vesicles. The intriguing concepts are "competition," "growth" "division."

 

[badger2]

When Nagel and Dawkins dismiss pre-biotic evolution, it looks like a mistake. The pre-biotic earth was evolving:

'Most significantly, traces of early-Earth's geochemistry were eradicated by geological and biological processes of over 4 billion years....There are enormous difficulties in searching for remnants of analogous processes on other planets, and the interdisciplinary nature of the problem requires active engagement of diverse scientists.
....
As part of this analysis, Dawkins's contention that his highly-improbable-chance-thesis provides an answer to the notion of design and IDers' and Nagel's claims to counter chance by divine or "natural" telos were also examined. We can conclude that there is no real dichotomy between chance and telos. Chance and telos are the two horns of a faulty dilemma. The true conflict is between chance and purpose on the one hand and an evolutionary emergence of life on the other hand.'
(Fry, op cit p. 121)

 

[Leo123]

Well for certain, the RNA was synthesized in the lab as were the vesicles. The intriguing concepts are "competition," "growth" "division."

Yes, the more we understand the better. I am particularly concerned about auto how assemblage of RNA from primordial elements with no intelligent interference would take place. That might give us some insight into what life is.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Yes of course the creation myth is baloney, but haven't you noticed that we've moved on from that nonsense?

The Catholic church itself has moved us on by accepting Darwinian evolution!

ID failed miserably in the face of true science. It was a Christian's careless attempt to borrow from science in order to bring credibility to the 'creation' lies.

Time, temperature and pressure and whatever you want from this list.
Give us the cocktail that writes a concerto

 

[Nobody911]

This thread will develop a critique of intelligent design, otherwise known as religious creationism. We choose the Broocks-Hedin assemblage because they will be speaking on 25 Oct 2023 in the very town that called them on their supposed "evidence."
4 Mar 2021 A Creationist Writes In

A creationist writes in: Eric Hedin resurfaces

This morning I got the following email, occasioned, I suppose, by the appearance of a new book by Eric Hedin published by the ID creationist outfit The Discovery Institute. The DI is promoting it heav

whyevolutionistrue.com

While the theory of evolution is widely accepted and supported by extensive scientific evidence, there are certain phenomena that have posed challenges to its complete explanation. Here are a few examples:

1. Origin of life: The theory of evolution explains how life has diversified and changed over time. However, it does not offer a comprehensive explanation for the origin of life itself, including the initial formation of the first living organisms from non-living matter.

2. Consciousness: While evolution provides insights into the development of the brain and cognitive capabilities, it does not fully explain the phenomenon of consciousness. The subjective experience of being aware and having self-awareness is still a profound mystery in terms of its evolutionary origins.

3. Complex adaptive traits: The evolution of certain complex features or behaviors, such as intricately designed structures or intricate social behaviors, can be challenging to explain through gradual modifications. Examples include the origin of the eye, language acquisition, and the evolution of altruistic behavior.

4. Rapid evolutionary changes: While evolution typically occurs through gradual modifications over long periods of time, there are instances where rapid evolutionary changes have been observed, such as the emergence of antibiotic resistance in bacteria. The exact mechanisms behind these rapid adaptive shifts are still under investigation.

5. "Irreducible complexity": Some argue that certain biological systems, such as the flagellum in bacteria or blood clotting mechanisms, are too complex to have evolved step by step, and they propose the concept of irreducible complexity. However, these arguments have been subject to much debate and are not widely accepted within the scientific community.

The ongoing scientific research continually addresses and investigates these questions, seeking to bridge the gaps in our understanding and refine our knowledge.

There are various kinds of books in libraries worldwide for a reason. Science books alone do not dominate the shelves because science is not a magical solution that perfectly addresses all questions in the world. This is why schools or colleges offer a diverse range of subjects.

 

[badger2]

Yes, the more we understand the better. I am particularly concerned about auto how assemblage of RNA from primordial elements with no intelligent interference would take place. That might give us some insight into what life is.

Here is Fry's excerpt along these lines:

'Lipids were also demonstrated to catalyze polymerization of RNA under conditions of wetting and drying cycles. Using a different technique, it was found by Di Mauro and his group that spontaneous ligation of short RNA segments (10-24 monomers) in water at acidic pH and moderate temperatures led to formation of longer RNA sequences.
....
Against the contention that the origin of life was a "highly improbable chance event (see Dawkins 1986, pp. 139-141), it should be indicated that the RNA products of the above mentioned polymerization and elongation procedures under prebiotic conditions are not statistically random and depend, among other factors, on the monomers involved.

In the framework of their studies of the synthesis of RNA on montmorillonite clays, it was found by Ferris and colleagues that both the sequences, for example, purines versus pyrimidines, and the regioselectivity, 3'-5' versus 2'5' phosphodiester bonds, followed certain "rules for RNA elongation on montmorillonite" (Miyakawa and Ferris 2003, p. 8204). Most significantly, loner oligomers can form only under catalysis because "the catalyst limits the number of reaction pathways and there are sufficient monomers to make the longer oligomers."
....
It was reported recently that condensation of activated RNA monomers into short RNA chains was achieved via the catalysis by the dipeptide seryl-histidine (ser-his) in water-ice eutectic phase....the smallest known peptide catalyzing the dissociation of peptide and phosphodiester bonds and as a catalyst of the condensation of amino acids.
....
The group of Michael Yarus, another prominent contributor to the field, has isolated a tiny ribozyme, five nucleotides in length, whose active center consists of three nucleotides that catalyze the aminoacylation-of-tRNA synthetases. This ribozyme also supported peptidyl-RNA synthesis....'
(Fry, op cit)

When coming to this tRNA synthetase, there is now a modern drug that targets it that we can begin to compare with other things. This drug is used against Staphylococcus aureus.

 

[badger2]

Time, temperature and pressure and whatever you want from this list.
Give us the cocktail that writes a concerto

View attachment 849250

Pros and cons of magnesium are implicated. One can search authors mentioned at Pubmed:

'Referring, in one of their first papers, to the catalytic function of montmorillonite clay in polymerizing activated ribonucleotides, the Szostak group reported that montmorillonite also accelerated vesicle assembly and growth when fatty acids were supplied as tiny lipid single-layered micelles to a mixture of fatty acid vesicles (Hanczyc et al 2003). Moreover, it was found that RNA absorbed to montmorillonite particles can be encapsulated within vesicles.

These results pointed to the possibility of an assembly of protocell-like structures. However, a serious problem interfering with a plausible prebiotic fatty-acid vesicle in which RNA could have replicated is the incompatible effect of Mg+2 or other divalent cations on RNA on the one hand and on membranes on the other: RNA replication, both enzymatic and non-enzymatic, requires high concentrations of magnesium ions, which tend to destroy fatty-acid vesicles.

Szostak and coworkers found, however, that while vesicles made of certain fatty acids were unstable in the presence of divalent cations, the addition of the glycerol ester of these acids stabilized the membrane. This combined composition also allowed the rapid diffusion of Mg+2 ions into the vesicle and their equilibration across the membrane.'
(Fry, op cit)

 

[badger2]

While the theory of evolution is widely accepted and supported by extensive scientific evidence, there are certain phenomena that have posed challenges to its complete explanation. Here are a few examples:

1. Origin of life: The theory of evolution explains how life has diversified and changed over time. However, it does not offer a comprehensive explanation for the origin of life itself, including the initial formation of the first living organisms from non-living matter.

2. Consciousness: While evolution provides insights into the development of the brain and cognitive capabilities, it does not fully explain the phenomenon of consciousness. The subjective experience of being aware and having self-awareness is still a profound mystery in terms of its evolutionary origins.

3. Complex adaptive traits: The evolution of certain complex features or behaviors, such as intricately designed structures or intricate social behaviors, can be challenging to explain through gradual modifications. Examples include the origin of the eye, language acquisition, and the evolution of altruistic behavior.

4. Rapid evolutionary changes: While evolution typically occurs through gradual modifications over long periods of time, there are instances where rapid evolutionary changes have been observed, such as the emergence of antibiotic resistance in bacteria. The exact mechanisms behind these rapid adaptive shifts are still under investigation.

5. "Irreducible complexity": Some argue that certain biological systems, such as the flagellum in bacteria or blood clotting mechanisms, are too complex to have evolved step by step, and they propose the concept of irreducible complexity. However, these arguments have been subject to much debate and are not widely accepted within the scientific community.

The ongoing scientific research continually addresses and investigates these questions, seeking to bridge the gaps in our understanding and refine our knowledge.

There are various kinds of books in libraries worldwide for a reason. Science books alone do not dominate the shelves because science is not a magical solution that perfectly addresses all questions in the world. This is why schools or colleges offer a diverse range of subjects.

Antibiotic resistance mentioned in point 4. will link tRNA synthetase used against MRSA (methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus) mentioned in post #50.

 

[Leo123]

Here is Fry's excerpt along these lines:

'Lipids were also demonstrated to catalyze polymerization of RNA under conditions of wetting and drying cycles. Using a different technique, it was found by Di Mauro and his group that spontaneous ligation of short RNA segments (10-24 monomers) in water at acidic pH and moderate temperatures led to formation of longer RNA sequences.
....
Against the contention that the origin of life was a "highly improbable chance event (see Dawkins 1986, pp. 139-141), it should be indicated that the RNA products of the above mentioned polymerization and elongation procedures under prebiotic conditions are not statistically random and depend, among other factors, on the monomers involved.

In the framework of their studies of the synthesis of RNA on montmorillonite clays, it was found by Ferris and colleagues that both the sequences, for example, purines versus pyrimidines, and the regioselectivity, 3'-5' versus 2'5' phosphodiester bonds, followed certain "rules for RNA elongation on montmorillonite" (Miyakawa and Ferris 2003, p. 8204). Most significantly, loner oligomers can form only under catalysis because "the catalyst limits the number of reaction pathways and there are sufficient monomers to make the longer oligomers."
....
It was reported recently that condensation of activated RNA monomers into short RNA chains was achieved via the catalysis by the dipeptide seryl-histidine (ser-his) in water-ice eutectic phase....the smallest known peptide catalyzing the dissociation of peptide and phosphodiester bonds and as a catalyst of the condensation of amino acids.
....
The group of Michael Yarus, another prominent contributor to the field, has isolated a tiny ribozyme, five nucleotides in length, whose active center consists of three nucleotides that catalyze the aminoacylation-of-tRNA synthetases. This ribozyme also supported peptidyl-RNA synthesis....'
(Fry, op cit)

When coming to this tRNA synthetase, there is now a modern drug that targets it that we can begin to compare with other things. This drug is used against Staphylococcus aureus.

Yes they can emulate certain functions using preformed molecules.

 

[Dagosa]

This thread will develop a critique of intelligent design, otherwise known as religious creationism. We choose the Broocks-Hedin assemblage because they will be speaking on 25 Oct 2023 in the very town that called them on their supposed "evidence."
4 Mar 2021 A Creationist Writes In

A creationist writes in: Eric Hedin resurfaces

This morning I got the following email, occasioned, I suppose, by the appearance of a new book by Eric Hedin published by the ID creationist outfit The Discovery Institute. The DI is promoting it heav

whyevolutionistrue.com

It has nothing to do with science.

 

[badger2]

It has nothing to do with science.

You should, then, take it up with Broocks and Hedin. They say it does.

 

[badger2]

Yes they can emulate certain functions using preformed molecules.

Then what's of interest to the OP is the lipid link to hydrogen cyanide (HCN) linking:

'It might be of interest that following the Sutherland line of study on ribose, mentioned earlier, the Sutherland group engaged in experiments aimed to show that precursors of ribonucleotides, amino acids, and lipids can be commonly derived from hydrogen cyanide and hydrogen sulfide under certain prebiotic conditions. They also suggested a geochemical scenario that could have enabled such a common origin (Patel et al 2015; Sutherland 2016).'
(Fry, op cit.)

 

[Dagosa]

You should, then, take it up with Broocks and Hedin. They say it does.

They’re wrong.

 

[Dagosa]

You should, then, take it up with Broocks and Hedin. They say it does.

No. Science isn’t just about creationism regardless what side you are on. It’s about discovery and agreed upon evidence in institutional environments. An Individual article and opinion IS NOT SCIENCE. Now, if you had said the article was published and accepted by the AAAS, we’d have something. You didn’t.

 

[badger2]

No. Science isn’t just about creationism regardless what side you are on. It’s about discovery and agreed upon evidence in institutional environments. An Individual article and opinion IS NOT SCIENCE. Now, if you had said the article was published and accepted by the AAAS, we’d have something. You didn’t.

If you read the OP correctly, the thread is about teaching what is called science in a college class and also saying that this science is evidence of god. OP went to their presentation, you did not.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Pros and cons of magnesium are implicated. One can search authors mentioned at Pubmed:

'Referring, in one of their first papers, to the catalytic function of montmorillonite clay in polymerizing activated ribonucleotides, the Szostak group reported that montmorillonite also accelerated vesicle assembly and growth when fatty acids were supplied as tiny lipid single-layered micelles to a mixture of fatty acid vesicles (Hanczyc et al 2003). Moreover, it was found that RNA absorbed to montmorillonite particles can be encapsulated within vesicles.

These results pointed to the possibility of an assembly of protocell-like structures. However, a serious problem interfering with a plausible prebiotic fatty-acid vesicle in which RNA could have replicated is the incompatible effect of Mg+2 or other divalent cations on RNA on the one hand and on membranes on the other: RNA replication, both enzymatic and non-enzymatic, requires high concentrations of magnesium ions, which tend to destroy fatty-acid vesicles.

Szostak and coworkers found, however, that while vesicles made of certain fatty acids were unstable in the presence of divalent cations, the addition of the glycerol ester of these acids stabilized the membrane. This combined composition also allowed the rapid diffusion of Mg+2 ions into the vesicle and their equilibration across the membrane.'
(Fry, op cit)

I’m fully open to the combination of time, temperature, pressure and your pick of elements that will write a concerto in B flat.