Criticism of Israel

[Sherlock Holmes]

Most people are aware that being critical of the Zionist regime and Israeli society is regarded as effrontery by Zionists. One will be accused of antisemitism as a first step and then attacked more if one persists. This thread is dedicated to example of where criticism of the state has led to serious problems for people.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Germany is a good place to be Jewish. Unless, like me, you’re a Jew who criticises Israel​

When I observed how Palestinians, and Muslims in general, in Germany were being held collectively liable for the Hamas attacks, I signed an open letter along with more than 100 Jewish academics, writers, artists and thinkers, in which we asked German politicians not to remove the last remaining safe spaces for people to express their grief and despair. There was immediate backlash from the official German Jewish community. On 1 November, just as I was about to appear on a TV talkshow with the vice-chancellor, Robert Habeck, I was sent a screenshot of a post in which the same German Jewish journalist who attacked my book publicly discussed fantasies about me being held hostage in Gaza. It stopped my heart cold.

Suddenly, everything was clear to me. The same people who had been demanding that every Muslim in Germany condemn the Hamas attacks in order to receive permission to say anything else at all were fine with civilian deaths as long as the victims were people with opposing views. The German government’s unconditional support for Israel doesn’t only prevent it from condemning the deaths of civilians in Gaza – it also allows it to ignore the way dissenting Jews in Germany are being thrown under the same bus as they are in Israel.

 

[Votto]

Most people are aware that being critical of the Zionist regime and Israeli society is regarded as effrontery by Zionists. One will be accused of antisemitism as a first step and then attacked more if one persists. This thread is dedicated to example of where criticism of the state has led to serious problems for people.

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I have mixed feeling about this

For example, they called Trump Hillter for over 10 years it seems, and then sat back and waited for someone to murder him, which eventually was bound to happen. And when I say they called him Hilter, I mean the main stream media and politicians that people mistakenly respect. It only takes a few loons to do their dirty work for them once they convince them to do their bidding via such vile propaganda.

And just like Trump, college students are allowed to sing "Gas the Jews" with impunity as they hide Jewish students in attics at these universities, and nothing happens.

The Left is raising a generation of Brown Shirts that are being conditioned to think of the GOP and Israel as evil objects worthy of assassination. In fact, democrats in Congress could not even condemn the 10/7 slaughter of women and children. They think they deserved it just like many democrats think Trump deserved to be murdered.

 

[TNHarley]

There is nothing wrong with criticizing Israel. However, a lot that is going on right now isnt anti-zionism, it is anti-semitism.
Like "stop the genocide!" Ok, so what were they supposed to do? Just let HAMAS get away with that attack? What if Mexico attacked us and raped our owmen like they did israel?
On twitter, it is blowing up with israel attacking syria and lebanon. When they got attacked first.
Jews are getting attacked on the streets all over the planet.
Saying "you cant attack the govt of israel with out being accused of anti-semitism" is gaslighting.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I have mixed feeling about this

For example, they called Trump Hillter for over 10 years it seems, and then sat back and waited for someone to murder him, which eventually was bound to happen. And when I say they called him Hilter, I mean the main stream media and politicians that people mistakenly respect. It only takes a few loons to do their dirty work for them once they convince them to do their bidding via such vile propaganda.

And just like Trump, college students are allowed to sing "Gas the Jews" with impunity as they hide Jewish students in attics at these universities, and nothing happens.

The Left is raising a generation of Brown Shirts that are being conditioned to think of the GOP and Israel as evil objects worthy of assassination. In fact, democrats in Congress could not even condemn the 10/7 slaughter of women and children. They think they deserved it just like many democrats think Trump deserved to be murdered.

I think there's some conflation going on in your post.

I don't see a problem in listing similarities between Trump and Hitler given what an elected Hitler unleased in Europe. Might that motivate someone to try and assassinate Trump? well yes, it might, there's always a might. Someone could compare Hitler to a rapist and that might lead some other person to attempt to assassinate Trump, it all depends upon the person.

I am not aware of anyone "allowing" college students to sing "Gas the Jews" but we both know there were lots of people singing "Hang Mike Pence" and Trump's own family publicly gloating over the violent hammer attack on Pelosi's husband. Trump seems (anecdotally at least) to have prompted more violent threats against his foes than Biden ever did.

I also do not accept the artificial framing of US public opinion as being "left" and "right" or "far left" or "radical left" and the other scare words that Trump garnishes his speeches with.

Public opinion varies with a fine granularity and to pretend there are just two ideological positions here is to play into the hands of the MAGA propagandists, who insist on telling Republican what to think, insist on telling us what's "really going on" adults of voting age should not need to adopt Trump's many insecurities, they have a duty to educate themselves and be vigilant and critical of power, not obediently submissive to it.

As for Israel there is a very real problem here, something akin to Orwell's 1984, fear to speak out, fear to even THINK.

 

[MarcATL]

The trance that the far rightwing government of Israel has had many in the world in, has broken.

People are snapping out of their stupor and seeing them for the violent racists they are.

The genocide has to stop.

 

[Votto]

I think there's some conflation going on in your post.

I don't see a problem in listing similarities between Trump and Hitler given what an elected Hitler unleased in Europe. Might that motivate someone to try and assassinate Trump? well yes, it might, there's always a might. Someone could compare Hitler to a rapist and that might lead some other person to attempt to assassinate Trump, it all depends upon the person.

I am not aware of anyone "allowing" college students to sing "Gas the Jews" but we both know there were lots of people singing "Hang Mike Pence" and Trump's own family publicly gloating over the violent hammer attack on Pelosi's husband. Trump seems (anecdotally at least) to have prompted more violent threats against his foes than Biden ever did.

I also do not accept the artificial framing of US public opinion as being "left" and "right" or "far left" or "radical left" and the other scare words that Trump garnishes his speeches with.

Public opinion varies with a fine granularity and to pretend there are just two ideological positions here is to play into the hands of the MAGA propagandists, who insist on telling Republican what to think, insist on telling us what's "really going on" adults of voting age should not need to adopt Trump's many insecurities, they have a duty to educate themselves and be vigilant and critical of power, not obediently submissive to it.

As for Israel there is a very real problem here, something akin to Orwell's 1984, fear to speak out, fear to even THINK.

There is ample news stories about Jewish students being targeted at these universities, with threats and hate being thrown their way. It was so bad, the Presidents of these universities were called before Congress, or did you happen to miss all of that. It was so bad, some students were hidden in attics

And what did the university do about it? Who was expelled? Anyone?

Conversely, if you utter anything that offends the LGTB crowd or a black person, you can get expelled immediately.

The reason this antisemitism is so bad at these universities, is that the Left is targeting the future leaders in the US to direct their underlings to do the same.

 

[MarcATL]

I think there's some conflation going on in your post.

I don't see a problem in listing similarities between Trump and Hitler given what an elected Hitler unleased in Europe. Might that motivate someone to try and assassinate Trump? well yes, it might, there's always a might. Someone could compare Hitler to a rapist and that might lead some other person to attempt to assassinate Trump, it all depends upon the person.

I am not aware of anyone "allowing" college students to sing "Gas the Jews" but we both know there were lots of people singing "Hang Mike Pence" and Trump's own family publicly gloating over the violent hammer attack on Pelosi's husband. Trump seems (anecdotally at least) to have prompted more violent threats against his foes than Biden ever did.

I also do not accept the artificial framing of US public opinion as being "left" and "right" or "far left" or "radical left" and the other scare words that Trump garnishes his speeches with.

Public opinion varies with a fine granularity and to pretend there are just two ideological positions here is to play into the hands of the MAGA propagandists, who insist on telling Republican what to think, insist on telling us what's "really going on" adults of voting age should not need to adopt Trump's many insecurities, they have a duty to educate themselves and be vigilant and critical of power, not obediently submissive to it.

As for Israel there is a very real problem here, something akin to Orwell's 1984, fear to speak out, fear to even THINK.

Perfectlly said! BRAVO!!!!!

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

There is nothing wrong with criticizing Israel. However, a lot that is going on right now isnt anti-zionism, it is anti-semitism.
Like "stop the genocide!" Ok, so what were they supposed to do? Just let HAMAS get away with that attack? What if Mexico attacked us and raped our owmen like they did israel?

I think they were supposed to run the state in such a way that there is no desire to launch terrorist attacks. That's what the Israeli government could have been doing since 1948 but it has not pursued such a path.

On twitter, it is blowing up with israel attacking syria and lebanon. When they got attacked first.

I don't think its very productive to try and establish a "first" one can do that but it's ultimately unprovable, we can't prove X led to Y and then Y led to Z, different people interpret things differently. A plausible timeline can be created but its never complete, never free from assumptions.

I think its easier to understand the situation by first getting some basic facts laid out, what are the current issues that bother the Israeli government, Israeli population, Jews and Palestinians. It's easy to get some pretty uncontroversial facts identified and then ask "how can this current setup be improved?".

If you do that, itemize important issues from Palestinian and Israeli perspectives, then it soon becomes clear that Israel is far better placed to change things, it has far more control over people, policies and practices than the Palestinians do.

Israel has more power to improve the situation but it does not, it avoids the obvious and instead continually acts to increase tension, increase violence, increase risks.

Jews are getting attacked on the streets all over the planet.

I don't think that's a credible claim.

Saying "you cant attack the govt of israel with out being accused of anti-semitism" is gaslighting.

Very well, so attack the government of Israel right here, do so, find the most serious issue and problem you see in Israeli culture and government and attack that - you'll soon find that the "antisemite" accusation comes your way, it has to me many times on this forum.

 

[Lisa558]

There is nothing wrong with criticizing Israel. However, a lot that is going on right now isnt anti-zionism, it is anti-semitism.
Like "stop the genocide!" Ok, so what were they supposed to do? Just let HAMAS get away with that attack? What if Mexico attacked us and raped our owmen like they did israel?
On twitter, it is blowing up with israel attacking syria and lebanon. When they got attacked first.
Jews are getting attacked on the streets all over the planet.
Saying "you cant attack the govt of israel with out being accused of anti-semitism" is gaslighting.

Agree. There is no “genocide” nor is there such a thing as a “Zionist Regime”. People who use this word and this phrase are antisemites trying to drive more hatred of Jews.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

There is ample news stories about Jewish students being targeted at these universities, with threats and hate being thrown their way. It was so bad, the Presidents of these universities were called before Congress, or did you happen to miss all of that. It was so bad, some students were hidden in attics

Then I suggest you go and dig down, research those stories, check the sources, question the anecdotal claims. Of course if you simply accept the news as its presented and have no doubt to its truth then you are a perfect candidate for being deceived.

And what did the university do about it? Who was expelled? Anyone?

What laws were broken here? give us names, dates etc.

Conversely, if you utter anything that offends the LGTB crowd or a black person, you can get expelled immediately.

Well attacking a person for their membership of some group is very different to attacking the characteristics of the group.

The reason this antisemitism is so bad at these universities, is that the Left is targeting the future leaders in the US to direct their underlings to do the same.

Ant-Zionist Jews have a more reasonable claim to being victims of antisemitism than do pro-Zionist Jews though.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Agree. There is no “genocide” nor is there such a thing as a “Zionist Regime”. People who use this word and this phrase are antisemites trying to drive more hatred of Jews.

There we go, I am being called an antisemite for using the term "Zionist Regime" but how can I be antisemitic for making such a statement?

These are the words of the late Hajo Meyer, a Jew who grew up in Nazi Germany and later sent to Auschwitz, he survived to tell his story.

If your logic for deciding a person is an antisemite means that Jews are antisemitic then I'd adjust that logic, that's the true test, if there are Jews saying the same things as an antisemite says, then that person isn't actually an antisemite.

 

[Votto]

Agree. There is no “genocide” nor is there such a thing as a “Zionist Regime”. People who use this word and this phrase are antisemites trying to drive more hatred of Jews.

They try to convince people that the 7 million Jews that live in Israel are viable targets, all of them.

Hitler only murdered 6 million from what I hear.

 

[Votto]

Then I suggest you go and dig down, research those stories, check the sources, question the anecdotal claims. Of course if you simply accept the news as its presented and have no doubt to its truth then you are a perfect candidate for being deceived.

What laws were broken here? give us names, dates etc.

Well attacking a person for their membership of some group is very different to attacking the characteristics of the group.

Ant-Zionist Jews have a more reasonable claim to being victims of antisemitism than do pro-Zionist Jews though.

Universities have codes of conduct that disallow threatening behavior towards fellow students and hate speech.

And if you bothered watching any of these stories, you would see that these university Presidents at a Congressional hearing would either say, "It depends on the context of what the threatening verbiage", or they would glibly say those events were under investigation, when we all know better. Other forms of hate speech were dealt with instantly.

It is compatible to Trump having Presidential records he is condemned for having but not others like Biden and Pence, etc.

 

[Lisa558]

There we go, I am being called an antisemite for using the term "Zionist Regime" but how can I be antisemitic for making such a statement?

These are the words of the late Hajo Meyer, a Jew who grew up in Nazi Germany and later sent to Auschwitz, he survived to tell his story.

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If your logic for deciding a person is an antisemite means that Jews are antisemitic then I'd adjust that logic.

So someone agrees with you - and that’s proof?

Yes…you have lied and used a term like genocide and zionist regime, and you are an antisemite. You don’t get to make up vicious lies about what Jews are doing, and then say you’re not antisemitic.

 

[Lisa558]

Universities have codes of conduct that disallow threatening behavior towards fellow students and hate speech.

And if you bothered watching any of these stories, you would see that these university Presidents would either say, "It depends on the context of what was said", or they would glibly say those events were under investigation, when we all know better. Other forms of hate speech were dealt with instantly.

It is compatible to Trump having Presidential records he is condemned for having but not others like Biden and Pence, etc.

Yes. The leftists have so cast Jews as the enemy that the head leftist of Harvard wasn’t even willing to say that calling for the genocide of Jews is unacceptable.

 

[Votto]

So someone agrees with you - and that’s proof?

Yes…you have lied and used a term like genocide and zionist regime, and you are an antisemite. You don’t get to make up vicious lies about what Jews are doing, and then say you’re not antisemitic.

Agreed. He has used the same hate speech he demands I prove students used all over the US and the world at various universities

That tells me he has no interest in the truth.

 

[Lisa558]

Agreed. He has used the same hate speech he demands I prove students used all over the US and the world at various universities

That tells me he has no interest in the truth.

We have antisemites spewing obviously antisemitic words and phrases, and then they want us to believe they’re not antisemites.

 

[Votto]

We have antisemites spewing obviously antisemitic words and phrases, and then they want us to believe they’re not antisemites.

Such hate speech as "genocidal" and "terrorists" will only encourage the mentally ill, which is in every society, to act on it.

And when they do, what does the Left care? They don't care for the mentally ill or the Jews they hate.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

So someone agrees with you - and that’s proof?

Yes, it is, it's proof that your are so confused your actually willing to call a Jew, an Auschwitz survivor he's an antisemite, that has to be one of the most antisemitic statements I've ever heard.

Yes…you have lied and used a term like genocide and zionist regime, and you are an antisemite.

So are you.

You don’t get to make up vicious lies about what Jews are doing, and then say you’re not antisemitic.

Neither do you.