Creationists

[Youwerecreated]

You still never showed me any evidence of the guy who you think made everything. And you don't accept science but you accept probability? Probability doesn't excluded random process, it just says that it might be highly unlikely, which is also bs because the person who made this argument wasn't there either at the beginning.

It's really because you don't like the answer.

So where is your guy? You never said.

Where ever he chooses to be.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Wow... If we thought like you did throughout history, we wouldn't have gotten very far. No offense. It's intellectual laziness on your part. To get to the point, you are not able to show that the chances are too small for a beneficial mutation to occur. In fact, its ridiculous to rule this out, and you are committing a logical fallacy, once again: "proof by assertion." If you have no evidence for something, you don't get to simply assert it as fact. Again, intuition does not count as evidence.


The answer to your question is quite simple. it is more probable that a mutation is either neutral or harmful, simply because what constitutes fitness for any given animal is a narrow set of features. Relative to the possible mutations, only a narrow set of mutations would actually increase the chances for an organism to survive. Therefore, it is statistically improbable that a random change in the alleles will produce anything desirable. Occasionally, we do see people with beneficial mutations, but we might not even notice it. They may simply be the "prodigies" we all admire. By definition, any mutation we see, wouldn't be a huge mutation, because that's not really possible, or highly unlikely. It would be a small mutation, something we might not even notice, like greater intelligence, or a greater proclivity to understand math or music, english, etc... who knows. You seem to be expecting someone with wings or something ridiculous, I am guessing.

I did a post on mutation fixation a while back and the conditions that need to be met for a mutation to become fixated in the population and the problems for this to happen. You have enzymes also working against fixation . I am not gonna search for that post but here read this article and you will see one of your own explaining the conditions that have to be met for fixation to take place plus the enzymes working to correct these copying errors and the chances are impossible no matter how many years you give it.

Mutation Fixation: A Dead End for Macro-evolution

by E. Calvin Beisner, M.A.

Oh no. Not this same silly Beisner cut and paste again.

Yet more silliness from the ICR.

E. Calvin Beisner

E. Calvin Beisner, Ph.D., is spokesman for the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation and is also an author and speaker on the application of the Biblical world view to economics, government, and environmental policy. He has published over ten books and hundreds of articles, contributed to, or edited, many other books, and been a guest on television and radio programs. A ruling elder in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, he has spoken to churches, seminars, and other groups around the country for nearly twenty years.

Like Isaid it would not be long for another useless post attacking the messenger not the message. Care to point out where he is wrong. He used one of your guys conditions for fixation to take place then you cry foul.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Care to explain who programmed the programmer?

No one,who programmed you ?

So you believe your gawds program faulty work and also program corrective actions
for the purpose of killing sinners?

Yes he did the programming but if he didn't have protective measures we would go extinct.

 

[mjollnir]

I did a post on mutation fixation a while back and the conditions that need to be met for a mutation to become fixated in the population and the problems for this to happen. You have enzymes also working against fixation . I am not gonna search for that post but here read this article and you will see one of your own explaining the conditions that have to be met for fixation to take place plus the enzymes working to correct these copying errors and the chances are impossible no matter how many years you give it.

Mutation Fixation: A Dead End for Macro-evolution

by E. Calvin Beisner, M.A.

Oh no. Not this same silly Beisner cut and paste again.

Yet more silliness from the ICR.

E. Calvin Beisner

E. Calvin Beisner, Ph.D., is spokesman for the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation and is also an author and speaker on the application of the Biblical world view to economics, government, and environmental policy. He has published over ten books and hundreds of articles, contributed to, or edited, many other books, and been a guest on television and radio programs. A ruling elder in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, he has spoken to churches, seminars, and other groups around the country for nearly twenty years.

Like Isaid it would not be long for another useless post attacking the messenger not the message. Care to point out where he is wrong. He used one your guys conditions for fixation to take place then you cry foul.

LOL! The ironic thing is you don't understand what you're posting and, like a good little trained monkey, simply throw it out there and expect it to be accepted like Holy Writ.

Your scientific illiteracy duly noted, trained monkey.

 

[Youwerecreated]

I did a post on mutation fixation a while back and the conditions that need to be met for a mutation to become fixated in the population and the problems for this to happen. You have enzymes also working against fixation . I am not gonna search for that post but here read this article and you will see one of your own explaining the conditions that have to be met for fixation to take place plus the enzymes working to correct these copying errors and the chances are impossible no matter how many years you give it.

Mutation Fixation: A Dead End for Macro-evolution

by E. Calvin Beisner, M.A.

Oh no. Not this same silly Beisner cut and paste again.

Yet more silliness from the ICR.

E. Calvin Beisner

E. Calvin Beisner, Ph.D., is spokesman for the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation and is also an author and speaker on the application of the Biblical world view to economics, government, and environmental policy. He has published over ten books and hundreds of articles, contributed to, or edited, many other books, and been a guest on television and radio programs. A ruling elder in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, he has spoken to churches, seminars, and other groups around the country for nearly twenty years.

FYI, E. Calvin is also running a special promotion this week on his own branded pint bottles of E. Cal's magic elixir and stain removed. Guaranteed to fix what ails you.

Hollie focus on the message. Byles is correct about the conditions that have to be met that is one of your guys. The problem is Byles did not understand the problem for these conditions to be met.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Care to explain who programmed the programmer?

No one,who programmed you ?

Where did the program come from?

These natural systems were put into to motion by someone they did not just happen.

 

[Youwerecreated]

I assume neither.

So you are in the category of naturalism,it just happened by chance.

Can you cite a single event, structure or mechanism that is "unnatural"?

I am not aware of a single, verifiable event, structure or mechanism that exists currently or has existed in the past (other than thunder and lightning being the result of the gawds bowling).

Can you cite for us something we can test ad being supernatural?

Already have,you really don't understand how these enzymes are programmed to spot errors and fix them can you give a rational rebuttal to this.

Its like parts of your computer they are programmed to perform duties but they were programmed that is what you are not grasping.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Wow... If we thought like you did throughout history, we wouldn't have gotten very far. No offense. It's intellectual laziness on your part. To get to the point, you are not able to show that the chances are too small for a beneficial mutation to occur. In fact, its ridiculous to rule this out, and you are committing a logical fallacy, once again: "proof by assertion." If you have no evidence for something, you don't get to simply assert it as fact. Again, intuition does not count as evidence. It may be unlikely, but given how much time has passed since the earths beginning, and how many times animals have mated or divided, it becomes more and more likely.

The answer to your question is quite simple. it is more probable that a mutation is either neutral or harmful, simply because what constitutes fitness for any given animal is a narrow set of features. Relative to the possible mutations, only a narrow set of mutations would actually increase the chances for an organism to survive. Therefore, it is more statistically improbable that a random change in the alleles will produce anything desirable, than something undesirable. Occasionally, we do see people with beneficial mutations, but we might not even notice it. They may simply be the "prodigies" we all admire. By definition, any mutation we see, wouldn't be a huge mutation, because that's not really possible, or highly unlikely. It would be a small mutation, something we might not even notice, like greater intelligence, or a greater proclivity to understand math or music, english, etc... who knows. You seem to be expecting someone with wings or something ridiculous, I am guessing. Of course we are going to notice the harmful mutations, while any beneficial mutations might not be noteworthy. They may simply be a very successful person who don't even realize they have a beneficial mutation. So, you have no way of tracking how many beneficial mutations there are, because of confirmation bias with respect to the evidence.

By the way who is we do you have a mouse in your pocket ? Do you hold a degree in science ? and have you done research work ?

I don't understand the question. No, and no.

Are going to discredit my response because I am not a PhD in biology? How about you just respond to what I said as opposed to worry about my background. I sense an ad hominem debate fallacy in the making, real soon.

Phd's while may be impressive to some but it is merely an honorary title. The guys with the masters or several masters are the ones doing all the work the Phd is for teaching and writing books off of someone elses work.

Yes how many times must I state it ?11 years of mutation and cell research.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Oh no. Not this same silly Beisner cut and paste again.

Yet more silliness from the ICR.

E. Calvin Beisner

E. Calvin Beisner, Ph.D., is spokesman for the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation and is also an author and speaker on the application of the Biblical world view to economics, government, and environmental policy. He has published over ten books and hundreds of articles, contributed to, or edited, many other books, and been a guest on television and radio programs. A ruling elder in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, he has spoken to churches, seminars, and other groups around the country for nearly twenty years.

Like Isaid it would not be long for another useless post attacking the messenger not the message. Care to point out where he is wrong. He used one your guys conditions for fixation to take place then you cry foul.

LOL! The ironic thing is you don't understand what you're posting and, like a good little trained monkey, simply throw it out there and expect it to be accepted like Holy Writ.

Your scientific illiteracy duly noted, trained monkey.

Do you care to debate it then and see ? I like how dummies rush in before they know how deep the water is.

 

[newpolitics]

I made my definitions very clear and if you don't understand a term look it up.

No, you didn't. You said "decide for yourself" when I asked what does "too rare" mean. You have demonstrated yourself that your methodology for determining such objective things is your incredibly subjective intuition, which is inadequate as far as making scientific claims, in as much as no one would accept this, and neither do I. You can not objectively show that beneficial mutations are too rare, therefore, you have nothing on this claims, so stop saying it until you have evidence.

I gave you an example of how rare they are and how hard it is for mutations to become fixated in the population. Come on if you are gonna have this discussion you have to use a little reasoning.

What example? That farce of an article you posted? That person that wrote that wouldn't know science if it smacked him in the face.

 

[Hollie]

So you are in the category of naturalism,it just happened by chance.

Can you cite a single event, structure or mechanism that is "unnatural"?

I am not aware of a single, verifiable event, structure or mechanism that exists currently or has existed in the past (other than thunder and lightning being the result of the gawds bowling).

Can you cite for us something we can test ad being supernatural?

Already have,you really don't understand how these enzymes are programmed to spot ers and fix them can you give a rational rebuttal to this.

Its like parts of your computer they are programmed to perform duties but they were programmed that is what you are not grasping.

That's more of your assignment of attributes to enzymes. Can you detail for us how you know enzymes are " programmed".

 

[newpolitics]

By the way who is we do you have a mouse in your pocket ? Do you hold a degree in science ? and have you done research work ?

I don't understand the question. No, and no.

Are going to discredit my response because I am not a PhD in biology? How about you just respond to what I said as opposed to worry about my background. I sense an ad hominem debate fallacy in the making, real soon.

Phd's while may be impressive to some but it is merely an honorary title. The guys with the masters or several masters are the ones doing all the work the Phd is for teaching and writing books off of someone elses work.

Yes how many times must I state it ?11 years of mutation and cell research.

Why should this be important to me? I disagree with your conclusions, not your having become qualified (although I might).

 

[newpolitics]

So you are in the category of naturalism,it just happened by chance.

Can you cite a single event, structure or mechanism that is "unnatural"?

I am not aware of a single, verifiable event, structure or mechanism that exists currently or has existed in the past (other than thunder and lightning being the result of the gawds bowling).

Can you cite for us something we can test ad being supernatural?

Already have,you really don't understand how these enzymes are programmed to spot errors and fix them can you give a rational rebuttal to this.

Its like parts of your computer they are programmed to perform duties but they were programmed that is what you are not grasping.

this is an argument from ignorance, again. You can't imagine how something like this system would arise, so... god or aliens did it. Breathtaking... really, it is.

 

[Youwerecreated]

No, you didn't. You said "decide for yourself" when I asked what does "too rare" mean. You have demonstrated yourself that your methodology for determining such objective things is your incredibly subjective intuition, which is inadequate as far as making scientific claims, in as much as no one would accept this, and neither do I. You can not objectively show that beneficial mutations are too rare, therefore, you have nothing on this claims, so stop saying it until you have evidence.

I gave you an example of how rare they are and how hard it is for mutations to become fixated in the population. Come on if you are gonna have this discussion you have to use a little reasoning.

What example? That farce of an article you posted? That person that wrote that wouldn't know science if it smacked him in the face.

No I gave you how many genetic disorders exist in the population vs how many beneficial mutations you can point out.

 

[mjollnir]

Like Isaid it would not be long for another useless post attacking the messenger not the message. Care to point out where he is wrong. He used one your guys conditions for fixation to take place then you cry foul.

LOL! The ironic thing is you don't understand what you're posting and, like a good little trained monkey, simply throw it out there and expect it to be accepted like Holy Writ.

Your scientific illiteracy duly noted, trained monkey.

Do you care to debate it then and see ? I like how dummies rush in before they know how deep the water is.

So I'm to debate something with a proven scientific illiterate who is devoid of logic?

Really? No, really?

 

[newpolitics]

I gave you an example of how rare they are and how hard it is for mutations to become fixated in the population. Come on if you are gonna have this discussion you have to use a little reasoning.

What example? That farce of an article you posted? That person that wrote that wouldn't know science if it smacked him in the face.

No I gave you how many genetic disorders exist in the population vs how many beneficial mutations you can point out.

I already responded to this.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Can you cite a single event, structure or mechanism that is "unnatural"?

I am not aware of a single, verifiable event, structure or mechanism that exists currently or has existed in the past (other than thunder and lightning being the result of the gawds bowling).

Can you cite for us something we can test ad being supernatural?

Already have,you really don't understand how these enzymes are programmed to spot ers and fix them can you give a rational rebuttal to this.

Its like parts of your computer they are programmed to perform duties but they were programmed that is what you are not grasping.

That's more of your assignment of attributes to enzymes. Can you detail for us how you know enzymes are " programmed".

Hollie,can you explain how these enzymes can spot and correct errors during DNA replication if they were not programmed ?

 

[Hollie]

I did a post on mutation fixation a while back and the conditions that need to be met for a mutation to become fixated in the population and the problems for this to happen. You have enzymes also working against fixation . I am not gonna search for that post but here read this article and you will see one of your own explaining the conditions that have to be met for fixation to take place plus the enzymes working to correct these copying errors and the chances are impossible no matter how many years you give it.

Mutation Fixation: A Dead End for Macro-evolution

by E. Calvin Beisner, M.A.

Oh no. Not this same silly Beisner cut and paste again.

Yet more silliness from the ICR.

E. Calvin Beisner

E. Calvin Beisner, Ph.D., is spokesman for the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation and is also an author and speaker on the application of the Biblical world view to economics, government, and environmental policy. He has published over ten books and hundreds of articles, contributed to, or edited, many other books, and been a guest on television and radio programs. A ruling elder in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, he has spoken to churches, seminars, and other groups around the country for nearly twenty years.

Like Isaid it would not be long for another useless post attacking the messenger not the message. Care to point out where he is wrong. He used one of your guys conditions for fixation to take place then you cry foul.

You are confused about the lack of credentials held by Beisner. What is useless is your cutting and pasting of the same articles when they have been refuted / discredited previously.

Don't start whining about useless posts when Beisner's agenda as an apologist and shill for the ICR exposes him as a fraud.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Can you cite a single event, structure or mechanism that is "unnatural"?

I am not aware of a single, verifiable event, structure or mechanism that exists currently or has existed in the past (other than thunder and lightning being the result of the gawds bowling).

Can you cite for us something we can test ad being supernatural?

Already have,you really don't understand how these enzymes are programmed to spot errors and fix them can you give a rational rebuttal to this.

Its like parts of your computer they are programmed to perform duties but they were programmed that is what you are not grasping.

this is an argument from ignorance, again. You can't imagine how something like this system would arise, so... god or aliens did it. Breathtaking... really, it is.

No,there is no explanation for this phenomenon,any rational person can conclude your computer did not program itself nor did our brains.

 

[Youwerecreated]

LOL! The ironic thing is you don't understand what you're posting and, like a good little trained monkey, simply throw it out there and expect it to be accepted like Holy Writ.

Your scientific illiteracy duly noted, trained monkey.

Do you care to debate it then and see ? I like how dummies rush in before they know how deep the water is.

So I'm to debate something with a proven scientific illiterate who is devoid of logic?

Really? No, really?

Then I take my challenge as a no ,you just sit back and learn.