Creationists

[Hollie]

The difference is hollie I have training to help me understand what I cut and pasted. I am sure loki will attempt a response but he like you does not understand the problems with mutation fixation. I will be more then happy to discuss it with you guys.

You and the other fundie both claim an understanding of the subject but the fact is, neither of you can offer anything more that cutting and pasting from creationist websites.

You have already stated that creationism is stealth religion. It's quite obvious the "science" that oozes from creationist ministries is nothing more than attacks on scienceintended to further religion.

Where does your information come from? Oh that's right. You never actually provide any!!!!

You have already identified that your "information" comes from sources that are religious based. What information are you going to cut and paste from fundie websites that anyone needs to be bother refuting?

 

[Hollie]

Nope, I am speaking the truth in love. Please do share. What facts above that I wrote about you aren't true? You really can't call someone a liar without substantiating your claim.

A simple yes or no will do:

Did you mislead others on another forum by pretending to be a man posing under the name Rugged Touch?

Are you on disability?

Are you obese?

Were your parents fundamentalist Christians?

Have you ever been to college?

I wouldn't let your lack of education be a barrier to ignorance. Many fundie Christians are able to wander through life with nothing more a bible to thump people with and an abiding will to collect welfare.

Did you mislead others on another forum by pretending to be a man posing under the name Rugged slut? No.

Are you on disability because the gods are punishing? No. I have never received government assistance.

Are you obese because the gods are punishing you? No, I am very fit. At 46 I still do weight training 3 times a week with the addition of 25 to 30 minutes of cardio. I try to eat healthy but typically blow it about once a week when we go out to dinner.


Were your parents fundamentalist Christians as opposed to Harun Yahya groupies? Yes, my parents were Southern Baptists. No, they didn't follow Islam. They were quite legalistic although my dad would give the shirt off his back to help someone in need. My mother volunteered for our church her whole life and led the nursing home ministries for quite a few years before succumbing to Alzheimers.

See Hollie, that wasn't so hard was it?

Oh gee whiz. Did you copy and paste that from a creationist ministry?

 

[Hollie]

Revisionism runs in yours and Hollie's veins. Why would assume anything else other than your total and complete denial of the truth? You are a LIAR and anyone with half a brain that read the threads can see right through your shenanigans.

I said it before but now you have convinced me, arguing with you is akin to arguing with a drunk. There is no logic or reasoning to be found with you and no honor whatsoever.

How strange that you would make reference to logic and reasoning. You and the other fundie had insisted that creation "science" was a viable method to counter evolution, the biological sciences and the physical sciences. You both recently abandoned that strategy altogether and finally admitted that creation science is simply lies, deceit and falsehood as mere attempts to assign credibility to what amounts to fear and superstition.

Your intellectual dishonesty is appalling. Seriously, Hollie, you and Loki think if you repeat something enough times it will be true. I have never claimed Creationism is anything but religion. Please produce a link or cease and desist with your LIES.

Oh you poor dear. You're having second thoughts about admitting the agenda of the creationist ministries you copy and paste from. Your agenda was always to promote "creation science" as a viable alternative to verifiable, peer reviewed science. Of course it is not and for some unknown reason, you expect to have appeals to a supermagical entity taken seriously.

 

[UltimateReality]

The difference is hollie I have training to help me understand what I cut and pasted. I am sure loki will attempt a response but he like you does not understand the problems with mutation fixation. I will be more then happy to discuss it with you guys.

You and the other fundie both claim an understanding of the subject but the fact is, neither of you can offer anything more that cutting and pasting from creationist websites.

You have already stated that creationism is stealth religion. It's quite obvious the "science" that oozes from creationist ministries is nothing more than attacks on science intended to further religion.

Hollie, when are you gonna open the discussion on mutation fixation ?

I think you are giving him way too much credit.

 

[UltimateReality]

What mutation fixation? This is another sill slogan emenating from the creationist ministries.

You didn't realize that your one, small contribution to honesty (your admission that creationism is stealth religion), only further discredits any cutting and pasting you will hope to deluge the thead with. Your comments are pre-defined to press a religious agenda and that agenda involves lies, deceit and falsified data aimed at biology and the sciences.

You are very ignorant to science hollie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_(population_genetics)

Have you considered your comments in relation to your cutting and pasting from wiki.

I do understand that so many of the charlatans representing creationist ministries have long ago been exposed as frauds so I can understand that you must scour wiki for your creationist anti-science agenda.

Hollie, just in case you think we forgot, we still remember how you cut and pasted one of your own posts from 5 years ago. Please, please, please, do us all a favor and come up with some new material. And quit accusing everyone else of what you are more guilty of than anyone else.

 

[UltimateReality]

You and the other fundie both claim an understanding of the subject but the fact is, neither of you can offer anything more that cutting and pasting from creationist websites.

You have already stated that creationism is stealth religion. It's quite obvious the "science" that oozes from creationist ministries is nothing more than attacks on scienceintended to further religion.

Where does your information come from? Oh that's right. You never actually provide any!!!!

You have already identified that your "information" comes from sources that are religious based.

You are just being manipulative or you are a complete moron. My last source was Wiki, the atheist, evolution friendly pseudo-clopedia.

 

[UltimateReality]

You and the other fundie both claim an understanding of the subject but the fact is, neither of you can offer anything more that cutting and pasting from creationist websites.

You have already stated that creationism is stealth religion. It's quite obvious the "science" that oozes from creationist ministries is nothing more than attacks on scienceintended to further religion.

Where does your information come from? Oh that's right. You never actually provide any!!!!

You have already identified that your "information" comes from sources that are religious based.

You are just being manipulative or you are a total moron. My last source was Wiki- the atheist, evolution friendly pseudo-clopedia. Is that religious-based?

 

[UltimateReality]

I wouldn't let your lack of education be a barrier to ignorance. Many fundie Christians are able to wander through life with nothing more a bible to thump people with and an abiding will to collect welfare.

Did you mislead others on another forum by pretending to be a man posing under the name Rugged slut? No.

Are you on disability because the gods are punishing? No. I have never received government assistance.

Are you obese because the gods are punishing you? No, I am very fit. At 46 I still do weight training 3 times a week with the addition of 25 to 30 minutes of cardio. I try to eat healthy but typically blow it about once a week when we go out to dinner.


Were your parents fundamentalist Christians as opposed to Harun Yahya groupies? Yes, my parents were Southern Baptists. No, they didn't follow Islam. They were quite legalistic although my dad would give the shirt off his back to help someone in need. My mother volunteered for our church her whole life and led the nursing home ministries for quite a few years before succumbing to Alzheimers.

See Hollie, that wasn't so hard was it?

Oh gee whiz. Did you copy and paste that from a creationist ministry?

Guess it was too hard. In your absence of denial, we are left to assume that it's all true.

 

[Hollie]

Did you mislead others on another forum by pretending to be a man posing under the name Rugged slut? No.

Are you on disability because the gods are punishing? No. I have never received government assistance.

Are you obese because the gods are punishing you? No, I am very fit. At 46 I still do weight training 3 times a week with the addition of 25 to 30 minutes of cardio. I try to eat healthy but typically blow it about once a week when we go out to dinner.


Were your parents fundamentalist Christians as opposed to Harun Yahya groupies? Yes, my parents were Southern Baptists. No, they didn't follow Islam. They were quite legalistic although my dad would give the shirt off his back to help someone in need. My mother volunteered for our church her whole life and led the nursing home ministries for quite a few years before succumbing to Alzheimers.

See Hollie, that wasn't so hard was it?

Oh gee whiz. Did you copy and paste that from a creationist ministry?

Guess it was too hard. In your absence of denial, we are left to assume that it's all true.

Yes, we are left to believe that you are the social misfit you have admitted to be.

 

[Hollie]

Where does your information come from? Oh that's right. You never actually provide any!!!!

You have already identified that your "information" comes from sources that are religious based.

You are just being manipulative or you are a total moron. My last source was Wiki- the atheist, evolution friendly pseudo-clopedia. Is that religious-based?

You really can't believe that anyone takes your whining seriously.

 

[LOki]

I will await loki to give a rebuttal on mutation fixation and the conditions that were brought out in the article I posted he said they don't exist,now that was funny.

I'll give you the first one only. I'm not going through all 9--they all exhibit the same flavor of disinformation. Then I expect you to stop evading my requests for information.

Byles's first condition is: "Natural selection must be inconsequential at the locus or loci under investigation." This is because natural selection tends to work against fixation of mutations--in other words, it tends to prevent their becoming a permanent part of the gene pool of a population.

This is a deliberately deceptive application of only half of the mechanism. While it is true that "natural selection tends to work against fixation of mutations" that degrade fitness, it is also true that natural selection tends to favor fixation of mutations that enhance fitness.

So I think I understand what you are saying.

I have my doubts, but hope spring eternal, I suppose.

Natural selection tends to favor fixation of mutations that enhance an organisms ability to survive and reproduce.

As explained, this is not the entirety of the theory; aside from that, I have no disagreement with this.

So basically you are saying our evidence for this is the fact that any mutations that survived must have been the ones that contributed to the organisms ability to survive and reproduce or they wouldn't have survived and reproduced. [Emphasis added by LOki]

No. You simply REFUSE to disabuse yourself of your logically fallacious paradigm.

 

[LOki]

Revisionism runs in yours and Hollie's veins.

What revisionism? The revisionism you are making-up? The revisionism you just believe is occuring?

What truth is being denied? The "UltimateTruth" of the "UltimateReality" that you just so happen to know all about?

Yet you fail to demonstrate that I have lied. Why is that, Cupcake?

The wiki quotes demonstrated your strawman claim, like all of your fallacious fallacy accusations, was a lie. Just go back and read it. That is where I demonstrated it. I really can't believe you are this stupid. But I will accept your bait to demonstrate it again.

Remember, in the context of the conversation, we were talking about hominids:



Wiki: "In this theory, speciation and rapid evolution are linked, with natural selection and genetic drift acting most strongly on organisms undergoing speciation in novel habitats or small populations."

"the organisms undergoing speciation and rapid evolution are found in small populations or geographically restricted habitats and therefore rarely being preserved as fossils." [This is consistent with the fossil evidence of Neanderthal and HS.]

"Smaller populations on the other hand, which are isolated from the parental stock, are decoupled from the homogenizing effects of gene flow."

Based on dna evidence, a small band of Neanderthals would have to have separated from the group and then lived in total isolation for 600,000 years.

Wiki: "Evidence from sequencing mitochondrial DNA indicated that no significant gene flow occurred between H. neanderthalensis and H. sapiens, and, therefore, the two were separate species that shared a common ancestor about 660,000 years ago.

Oh and while they were in total isolation for 600,000 years, their environment had to change numerous times to spur UR's strawman version of natural selection on and turn them into homo sapien. Because according to UR's strawman version of Loki, the other Neanderthals environment didn't change in 600,000 years and they stayed the same."

Fixed.

Wiki: "Allopatric speciation suggests that species with large central populations are stabilized by their large volume and the process gene flow. New and even beneficial mutations are diluted by the population's large size and are unable to reach fixation, due to such factors as constantly changing environments."

And thus, rather than admit his lie, Loki chooses not to admit his BLATANT intellectual dishonesty.

Nonsense. Your capacity to C/P wiki entries no matter how valid, is not the same thing as your equivocating use of the vocabulary in those entries to misrepresent what they are describing.

There is simply no intellectual dishonesty for me to admit to. Seriously, you shouldn't quote-mine wikipedia, and then accuse me of "blatant" intellectual dishonesty.

Lest we forget the topic that started this whole discussion: And so it is the case in the "just so" stories of Darwinism, we are asked to believe that none of the claims made for the Hominids were were discussing above, never happened to E'coli, which has remain argely unchanged for 2 billion years.

And now we see how the irony of your bullshit accusation against me plays out. BRAVO!

 

[LOki]

Oh you poor dear. That is not what I said. What is your educational background that you can't seem to comprehend a simple sentence? Here, let me say it reeaaaal slow so you can get it. The existence of God is just as easy to believe in and prove, as the belief in evolution. One more time for the short bus rider: it is just as easy to believe in and prove God exists as it is to believe in and prove evolution is real.

Oh good!

You reference this "God" thing. I have no idea what you're talking about. You've brought up this "God" thing of yours, but have yet to explain what it is.

Now, I have been exposed to literally hundreds of self-contradictory, question-begging, special-pleading appeal-to-ignorance accounts of some "God."

Those clearly don't count, right? Those "God" things are obviously fraudulent. So help me out here, and explain this "God" thing you reference.

Mental midget.

Agreed.

So what's your problem now? Why do you refuse to explain this "God" thing of yours? Is it because I'm a mental midget? Is that it?

So I admit that I have no idea what you're talking about. You've brought up this "God" thing of yours, but have yet to explain what it is.

Now, I have been exposed--presumably by intellects of such small stature that they are dwarfed by mental midgets--to literally hundreds of self-contradictory, question-begging, special-pleading appeal-to-ignorance accounts of some "God."

Even a mental midget can see that those clearly don't count, right? Even a mental midget can see that those "God" things are obviously fraudulent. So help me out here, and explain this "God" thing you reference in terms that even a mental midget can understand.

 

[UltimateReality]

How strange that you would make reference to logic and reasoning. You and the other fundie had insisted that creation "science" was a viable method to counter evolution, the biological sciences and the physical sciences. You both recently abandoned that strategy altogether and finally admitted that creation science is simply lies, deceit and falsehood as mere attempts to assign credibility to what amounts to fear and superstition.

Your intellectual dishonesty is appalling. Seriously, Hollie, you and Loki think if you repeat something enough times it will be true. I have never claimed Creationism is anything but religion. Please produce a link or cease and desist with your LIES.

Oh you poor dear. You're having second thoughts about admitting the agenda of the creationist ministries you copy and paste from. Your agenda was always to promote "creation science" as a viable alternative to verifiable, peer reviewed science. Of course it is not and for some unknown reason, you expect to have appeals to a supermagical entity taken seriously.

So where's the link? Provide it now or I will require you to cease and desist.

 

[UltimateReality]

I'll give you the first one only. I'm not going through all 9--they all exhibit the same flavor of disinformation. Then I expect you to stop evading my requests for information.

This is a deliberately deceptive application of only half of the mechanism. While it is true that "natural selection tends to work against fixation of mutations" that degrade fitness, it is also true that natural selection tends to favor fixation of mutations that enhance fitness.

So I think I understand what you are saying.

I have my doubts, but hope spring eternal, I suppose.

Natural selection tends to favor fixation of mutations that enhance an organisms ability to survive and reproduce.

As explained, this is not the entirety of the theory; aside from that, I have no disagreement with this.

So basically you are saying our evidence for this is the fact that any mutations that survived must have been the ones that contributed to the organisms ability to survive and reproduce or they wouldn't have survived and reproduced. [Emphasis added by LOki]

No. You simply REFUSE to disabuse yourself of your logically fallacious paradigm.

Guess even sarcasm alludes you.

 

[UltimateReality]

What revisionism? The revisionism you are making-up? The revisionism you just believe is occuring?

What truth is being denied? The "UltimateTruth" of the "UltimateReality" that you just so happen to know all about?

Yet you fail to demonstrate that I have lied. Why is that, Cupcake?

The wiki quotes demonstrated your strawman claim, like all of your fallacious fallacy accusations, was a lie. Just go back and read it. That is where I demonstrated it. I really can't believe you are this stupid. But I will accept your bait to demonstrate it again.

Remember, in the context of the conversation, we were talking about hominids:



Wiki: "In this theory, speciation and rapid evolution are linked, with natural selection and genetic drift acting most strongly on organisms undergoing speciation in novel habitats or small populations."

"the organisms undergoing speciation and rapid evolution are found in small populations or geographically restricted habitats and therefore rarely being preserved as fossils." [This is consistent with the fossil evidence of Neanderthal and HS.]

"Smaller populations on the other hand, which are isolated from the parental stock, are decoupled from the homogenizing effects of gene flow."



Wiki: "Evidence from sequencing mitochondrial DNA indicated that no significant gene flow occurred between H. neanderthalensis and H. sapiens, and, therefore, the two were separate species that shared a common ancestor about 660,000 years ago.




Wiki: "Allopatric speciation suggests that species with large central populations are stabilized by their large volume and the process gene flow. New and even beneficial mutations are diluted by the population's large size and are unable to reach fixation, due to such factors as constantly changing environments."

And thus, rather than admit his lie, Loki chooses not to admit his BLATANT intellectual dishonesty.

Nonsense. Your capacity to C/P wiki entries no matter how valid, is not the same thing as your equivocating use of the vocabulary in those entries to misrepresent what they are describing.

There is simply no intellectual dishonesty for me to admit to. Seriously, you shouldn't quote-mine wikipedia, and then accuse me of "blatant" intellectual dishonesty.

Lest we forget the topic that started this whole discussion: And so it is the case in the "just so" stories of Darwinism, we are asked to believe that none of the claims made for the Hominids we were discussing above, never happened to E'coli, which has remain largely unchanged for 2 billion years.

And now we see how the irony of your bullshit accusation against me plays out. BRAVO!

Plays out?? I don't know where you've been but this is what we were discussing all along, Strawboy. And so your lying denial continues.

 

[UltimateReality]

Oh good!

You reference this "God" thing. I have no idea what you're talking about. You've brought up this "God" thing of yours, but have yet to explain what it is.

Now, I have been exposed to literally hundreds of self-contradictory, question-begging, special-pleading appeal-to-ignorance accounts of some "God."

Those clearly don't count, right? Those "God" things are obviously fraudulent. So help me out here, and explain this "God" thing you reference.

Mental midget.

Agreed.

So what's your problem now? Why do you refuse to explain this "God" thing of yours? Is it because I'm a mental midget? Is that it?

So I admit that I have no idea what you're talking about. You've brought up this "God" thing of yours, but have yet to explain what it is.

Now, I have been exposed--presumably by intellects of such small stature that they are dwarfed by mental midgets--to literally hundreds of self-contradictory, question-begging, special-pleading appeal-to-ignorance accounts of some "God."

Even a mental midget can see that those clearly don't count, right? Even a mental midget can see that those "God" things are obviously fraudulent. ...

No, YOU cannot. The man that subscribes to only naturalism, like yourself, is darkened in his understanding. The concept of God is foolishness to you. Unfortunately for you, for now, you don't have the ability to comprehend such things. Perhaps this is why you continue with your intellectual dishonesty above:

1 Corinthians 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 1:20-22(NIV)

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made [Creation], so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools.

 

[Hollie]

Mental midget.

Agreed.

So what's your problem now? Why do you refuse to explain this "God" thing of yours? Is it because I'm a mental midget? Is that it?

So I admit that I have no idea what you're talking about. You've brought up this "God" thing of yours, but have yet to explain what it is.

Now, I have been exposed--presumably by intellects of such small stature that they are dwarfed by mental midgets--to literally hundreds of self-contradictory, question-begging, special-pleading appeal-to-ignorance accounts of some "God."

Even a mental midget can see that those clearly don't count, right? Even a mental midget can see that those "God" things are obviously fraudulent. ...

No, YOU cannot. The man that subscribes to only naturalism, like yourself, is darkened in his understanding. The concept of God is foolishness to you. Unfortunately for you, for now, you don't have the ability to comprehend such things. Perhaps this is why you continue with your intellectual dishonesty above:

1 Corinthians 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 1:20-22(NIV)

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made [Creation], so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools.

I'm afraid that assaulting people by thumping them with your bible is a failed tactic.

The juvenile tactic of posting verses is meaningless when when what you're posting is confused, convoluted, contradictory and incorrect.

ON SEEING GOD
"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18

ON THE POWER OF GOD
"... with God all things are possible." -- Matthew 19:26

"...The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." -- Judges 1:19 Note: not "would not" but could not.

ON MAKING GRAVEN IMAGES
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water". (Lev. 26:1)

"[And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying...] And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them." (Exodus 25:18)

ON PUNISHING CRIME
"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20

"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5

ON TEMPTATION
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- James 1:13

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1

ON FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS
"Honor thy father and thy mother..."-- Exodus 20:12

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " -- Luke 14:26

ON RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
"...he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. " -- Job 7:9

"...the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth...." -- John 5:28-29

OOPS!

 

[Hollie]

Your intellectual dishonesty is appalling. Seriously, Hollie, you and Loki think if you repeat something enough times it will be true. I have never claimed Creationism is anything but religion. Please produce a link or cease and desist with your LIES.

Oh you poor dear. You're having second thoughts about admitting the agenda of the creationist ministries you copy and paste from. Your agenda was always to promote "creation science" as a viable alternative to verifiable, peer reviewed science. Of course it is not and for some unknown reason, you expect to have appeals to a supermagical entity taken seriously.

So where's the link? Provide it now or I will require you to cease and desist.

Lies certainly are a part of the creationist agenda. Isn't it a shame that you aside from your cut and paste arguments failing, you eventually were forced to admit that your entire agenda was a religious one and not a truthful or accurate one.

 

[ima]

If man was made by intelligent design, who made our creator?

Also, if we were made by intelligent design, why?