CDZ Could using Islam as a political philosophy make trumps ban constitutional?

[JakeStarkey]

The intent of Christianity is to replace the State when the Lord returns.

 

[Syriusly]

Sigh- specifically what ban are you speaking of? I like specifics rather than vagaries when dealing with Constitutional issues.

Stopping muslim immigration. What other ban for islam did he mention?

Okay- now I know for certain what you are talking about- Trump's call to ban immigration of people based upon their religion- Islam.

What does the Constitution say about religion?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

So the Constitution is clear that Congress cannot pass a law against Muslims within the United States based upon their religion- and the Koran is the basis of their religion as much as the Bible is the basis of Christianity

However would that apply to immigrants and visitors? I don't know for certain.

But- pretending calling Islam something other than a religion when it is a religion is not going to survive any Constitutional challenges.

It is KNOWN to everyone that Islam is also a political system/philosophy.

It is KNOWN to everyone that Islam is a religion.

And what is expressly protected in the U.S. Constitution?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

The topic at hand is handling islam as a political system. NOT a religion.

I realize the topic you want to discuss is how to do an end run around the Constitution and Freedom of Religion.

You can call Islam a political system as much as you want- regardless it is a religion and therefore the following applies:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof[

 

[Pogo]

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Correct, and we've done this to death before. FGM has been found all over the world and dates to waaaaay before Islam (or Christianism, or Judaism) ever existed. It's an artifact of ancient social structure. So is "honor killing", which is forbidden by all those religions yet still too common in places like India and Pakistan -- among Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and the irreligious.

Sometimes some of us have to get over the Association Fallacy of attributing literally everything some person does, to their religion. Lots of times actions are taken in spite of, not because of, the religion.

 

[Syriusly]

I find it humorous that the only people that claim Islam isn't a political system is non-muslims
Maybe they should read what you guys read LOL

Who is claiming Islam is not a political system?

Islam is many things- but the only thing that is undisputable is that it is a religion- and therefore as protected as Christianity or Judaism under the Constitution.

 

[Syriusly]

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.
Their goal is an Islamic state. The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene. That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

How much of the Koran have you personally read Harley?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The right question is "Have you read the Constitution, the 1st Amendment, and any commentaries that apply to your concern about religion in America?"

 

[ogibillm]

Are you saying that Puritan England under Cromwell was not a religious dictatorship? Or Puritan New England that hanged Quakers and witches? Or Mormons that ruled Utah? The Puritans executed a boy for buggering a sheep using the OT as the law to follow.

No. I am saying The OT isn't a political system. If it is, I am asking you to explain how.

It is a political system in exactly the same way as islam

SHOW ME

why? you haven't shown that islam is a political system. tell me how islam is, and i'll tell you how judaism is.

Political System
This principle of the unity of Allah totally negates the concept of the legal and political independence of human beings, individually or collectively. No individual, family, class or race can set themselves above Allah. Allah alone is the Ruler and His commandments are the Law.
Read the Salat
Read the Hadith
Read the Quran

I really want you to explain how that's not exactly the same belief that other monotheists hold.

 

[TNHarley]

​

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.

acts 5:29

Their goal is an Islamic state.

according to whom?

The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene.

so does judaism and christianity

That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

 

[TNHarley]

Stopping muslim immigration. What other ban for islam did he mention?

Okay- now I know for certain what you are talking about- Trump's call to ban immigration of people based upon their religion- Islam.

What does the Constitution say about religion?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

So the Constitution is clear that Congress cannot pass a law against Muslims within the United States based upon their religion- and the Koran is the basis of their religion as much as the Bible is the basis of Christianity

However would that apply to immigrants and visitors? I don't know for certain.

But- pretending calling Islam something other than a religion when it is a religion is not going to survive any Constitutional challenges.

It is KNOWN to everyone that Islam is also a political system/philosophy.

It is KNOWN to everyone that Islam is a religion.

And what is expressly protected in the U.S. Constitution?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

The topic at hand is handling islam as a political system. NOT a religion.

I realize the topic you want to discuss is how to do an end run around the Constitution and Freedom of Religion.

You can call Islam a political system as much as you want- regardless it is a religion and therefore the following applies:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof[

At least I am getting decent rebuttals from other people...

 

[TNHarley]

No. I am saying The OT isn't a political system. If it is, I am asking you to explain how.

It is a political system in exactly the same way as islam

SHOW ME

why? you haven't shown that islam is a political system. tell me how islam is, and i'll tell you how judaism is.

Political System
This principle of the unity of Allah totally negates the concept of the legal and political independence of human beings, individually or collectively. No individual, family, class or race can set themselves above Allah. Allah alone is the Ruler and His commandments are the Law.
Read the Salat
Read the Hadith
Read the Quran

I really want you to explain how that's not exactly the same belief that other monotheists hold.

They have sections of their faith specifically for political reasons. That is why it is a political system.

 

[ogibillm]

​

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.

acts 5:29

Their goal is an Islamic state.

according to whom?

The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene.

so does judaism and christianity

That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
n the Hadith Mohammed urges Muslims to practice Jihad. Mohammed once was asked: what is the best deed for the Muslim next to believing in Allah and His Apostle? His answer was: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

and you really think that we can't find the exact same sort of passages in the bible?

islam does have rules for various aspects of life. so does judaism and christianity. how can you deny that?

 

[ogibillm]

It is a political system in exactly the same way as islam

SHOW ME

why? you haven't shown that islam is a political system. tell me how islam is, and i'll tell you how judaism is.

Political System
This principle of the unity of Allah totally negates the concept of the legal and political independence of human beings, individually or collectively. No individual, family, class or race can set themselves above Allah. Allah alone is the Ruler and His commandments are the Law.
Read the Salat
Read the Hadith
Read the Quran

I really want you to explain how that's not exactly the same belief that other monotheists hold.

They have sections of their faith specifically for political reasons. That is why it is a political system.

again, so does judaism.

 

[TNHarley]

​

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.

acts 5:29

Their goal is an Islamic state.

according to whom?

The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene.

so does judaism and christianity

That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
n the Hadith Mohammed urges Muslims to practice Jihad. Mohammed once was asked: what is the best deed for the Muslim next to believing in Allah and His Apostle? His answer was: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

and you really think that we can't find the exact same sort of passages in the bible?

islam does have rules for various aspects of life. so does judaism and christianity. how can you deny that?

You asked me who said islams goal was an Islamic state. I showed you that. You think islamic domination is in the bible? LOL
Every aspect of life lol. Will you show me where they force control fo the economy and property?
I am really asking. I don't know everything..

 

[TNHarley]

TN, you follow the Constitution.

I do try. That's why I started this thread.

 

[TNHarley]

SHOW ME

why? you haven't shown that islam is a political system. tell me how islam is, and i'll tell you how judaism is.

Political System
This principle of the unity of Allah totally negates the concept of the legal and political independence of human beings, individually or collectively. No individual, family, class or race can set themselves above Allah. Allah alone is the Ruler and His commandments are the Law.
Read the Salat
Read the Hadith
Read the Quran

I really want you to explain how that's not exactly the same belief that other monotheists hold.

They have sections of their faith specifically for political reasons. That is why it is a political system.

again, so does judaism.

Then SHOW ME how it is a political system

 

[JakeStarkey]

TN, you follow the Constitution.

I do try. That's why I started this thread.

TN, you follow the Constitution is your answer. You can't prescribe on religious grounds.

 

[TNHarley]

political system - a coordinated set of principles, laws, ideas, and procedures relating to a particular form of government, or the form of government itself:
That is Islam lol.

 

[TNHarley]

TN, you follow the Constitution.

I do try. That's why I started this thread.

TN, you follow the Constitution is your answer.

I don't get it..

 

[JakeStarkey]

TN, you follow the Constitution.

I do try. That's why I started this thread.

TN, you follow the Constitution is your answer.

I don't get it..

I know.

 

[TNHarley]

TN, you follow the Constitution.

I do try. That's why I started this thread.

TN, you follow the Constitution is your answer.

I don't get it..

I know.

my answer to what, silly?
are you saying this isn't constitutional?