Civil War II - The Sequel

[AVG-JOE]

How long will we continue to argue over the minor issues that will NEVER be settled by a majority consensus? The longer them that has the cash flowing in their direction keep the rest of us squabbling over race, abortion, sex etc., the longer they'll keep us right where they want us - either lining their pockets directly or paying the lions share for the infrastructure that they use too.

If we are not going to start tolerating each other on race and tolerating each others opinions on lifestyle and choices, is not "Civil War II, The Sequel; Reds -vs- Blues" going to be the inevitable result? Have we seen any 50 / 50 votes lately?

I'm sure some semblance of 'America' would survive, but the loss of infrastructure would kind of bite.

What is YOUR idea for fixing illegal immigration?

What is YOUR idea for fixing the bureaucracy that is sucking the economic life from the inhabitants this country?

 

[midcan5]

'Yes, essential to control, we also maintain welfare is bad and supports those bad people in the inner city so they can drive Cadillacs and have 8 kids, and all our taxes are going to support these lazy people. Add to this the breakdown in marriage caused by gays and their lifestyle, we push for prayer in school to distract the average working stiffs, then send their jobs overseas blaming welfare and taxes and government spending, then we'll be able to continue to wage war for profits, pad the pockets of corporate supporters, reduce regulation so we can steal pensions and dismiss unions, pollute the environment and basically rob and pillage as we have done since Reagan. We figure this can go on for 30 to 50 years before the entire society collapses, we will move or be dead by then so who cares anyway.'

 

[M14 Shooter]

'Yes, essential to control, we also maintain welfare is bad and supports those bad people in the inner city so they can drive Cadillacs and have 8 kids, and all our taxes are going to support these lazy people. Add to this the breakdown in marriage caused by gays and their lifestyle, we push for prayer in school to distract the average working stiffs, then send their jobs overseas blaming welfare and taxes and government spending, then we'll be able to continue to wage war for profits, pad the pockets of corporate supporters, reduce regulation so we can steal pensions and dismiss unions, pollute the environment and basically rob and pillage as we have done since Reagan. We figure this can go on for 30 to 50 years before the entire society collapses, we will move or be dead by then so who cares anyway.'

As usual, you didn't address a thing he said.

 

[midcan5]

As usual, you didn't address a thing he said.

Neither did you.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Neither did you.

No, I addessed what YOU said, and how it had nothing to do with the OP.

If you're not going to even TRY to address the post you're responding to, why waste everyone's time?

 

[midcan5]

No, I addessed what YOU said, and how it had nothing to do with the OP.

Well then you didn't address the issue. Why is it you have such a hard time with simple conversation.

Cynic's cap off. Immigration is extremely tough and the following link provides a good picture why. If we seriously wanted to stop immigration we would go after those who hire them but that is big business and no one wants to do that.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20602

The economic question is less clear not sure who is sucking whom. But K street under the republicans is a large suckee and has done no good for American workers, American pocketbooks, or democracy. So changes there are a start. Chait's "Big Con" covers this area as well as "What's the Matter with Kansas" by Franks.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Immigration can be solved in a few steps.

1 Secure the border. We, The People need to know who is coming and how long they plan to stay.

2. Open the border. Let them come in. America Welcomes All! Provided they either have enough cash to get by or they plan to work.

3. Provide a reason to be a citizen, like "Only American Citizens can own property in the USA."

That puts corporations, especially foreign corporations in a bit of a pickle, but frankly my dear Scarlett, I don't give a damn.

See, simple!

 

[rayboyusmc]

[If you're not going to even TRY to address the post you're responding to, why waste everyone's time?/QUOTE]

LIke no on else does this?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Hey,

I thought the topic was Immigration and what to do about the people who are invested in our economy but not citizens, be they legally here or not. I've proposed a solution. A fairly simple one to debate too, only 3 points. Tell me why my idea won't work, assuming all 3 points are employed as one solution, or give me one of your own.

-Joe

 

[Gunny]

How long will we continue to argue over the minor issues that will NEVER be settled by a majority consensus? The longer them that has the cash flowing in their direction keep the rest of us squabbling over race, abortion, sex etc., the longer they'll keep us right where they want us - either lining their pockets directly or paying the lions share for the infrastructure that they use too.

If we are not going to start tolerating each other on race and tolerating each others opinions on lifestyle and choices, is not "Civil War II, The Sequel; Reds -vs- Blues" going to be the inevitable result? Have we seen any 50 / 50 votes lately?

I'm sure some semblance of 'America' would survive, but the loss of infrastructure would kind of bite.

What is YOUR idea for fixing illegal immigration?

What is YOUR idea for fixing the bureaucracy that is sucking the economic life from the inhabitants this country?

Nah. Civil War II will be between those who are finally beyond fed up with a government that represents itself rather than the ideals embodied in the US Constitution, and the chickenshit sheep who can't imagine surviving without Big Brother to mollycoddle them cradle to grave.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The first step in a bloodless American Revolution will be for a state to secede. I'm going to call my bookie and bet on Alaska. They have the geography and resources.

-Joe

 

[Gunny]

Hey,

I thought the topic was Immigration and what to do about the people who are invested in our economy but not citizens, be they legally here or not. I've proposed a solution. A fairly simple one to debate too, only 3 points. Tell me why my idea won't work, assuming all 3 points are employed as one solution, or give me one of your own.

-Joe

1. Secure the border.

2. Deport illegals as they are caught. No major effort to make one, big major roundup and deport all of them at once.

3. Hammer anyone caught transporting or hiring illegals without mercy, and hammer them hard enough that it hurts. Make it so that it is in the best interest of unscrupulous employers to hire legal US citizens if for no other reason than their financial benefit.

4. Get these bums collecting unemployment and welfare off their asses and require them to do the jobs "nobody else will do" for their handouts.

5. refuse to vote for ANYONE, regardless of party, that is for blanket amnesty.

 

[AVG-JOE]

That is what I wanted to see!

1. We agree that a secure border is the first step!

2. I'm not sure I would agree with a round up and deportation... doesn't exactly go with the concept of "Freedom", but if We, The People want to take that tack I'll go along.

3. Once again, I think that Free borders will be much easier and cheaper to maintain in the long run. Eventually the world needs to be brought to a condition where Mexicans and others would rather stay home. Free borders will be inevitable in 100 years, whether our children live like the Jetsons because we build on to our infrastructure or like our great grandparents because we destroy part of it. However, if We, The People want to take baby steps to get there I'm all for it. As long as we get our asses in gear here soon.

4. Cash hand-outs with no work involved for able-bodied people have puzzled me since I arrived... I'm with you there... LOTS of streets need the litter picked up for starters. But, isn't that kind of a different issue?

5. A kind of Amnesty is unfortunately required. Non-citizens are dug into the economy to deeply to not cause a certain amount of economic pain to simply remove them... Not to mention the ethical dilemma of non-citizen parents and spouses of citizens. That is why I suggested We allow them to stay, and then offer the bonus of the right to own American Property for being an American.

-Joe

 

[jreeves]

That is what I wanted to see!

1. We agree that a secure border is the first step!

2. I'm not sure I would agree with a round up and deportation... doesn't exactly go with the concept of "Freedom", but if We, The People want to take that tack I'll go along.

3. Once again, I think that Free borders will be much easier and cheaper to maintain in the long run. Eventually the world needs to be brought to a condition where Mexicans and others would rather stay home. Free borders will be inevitable in 100 years, whether our children live like the Jetsons because we build on to our infrastructure or like our great grandparents because we destroy part of it. However, if We, The People want to take baby steps to get there I'm all for it. As long as we get our asses in gear here soon.

4. Cash hand-outs with no work involved for able-bodied people have puzzled me since I arrived... I'm with you there... LOTS of streets need the litter picked up for starters. But, isn't that kind of a different issue?

5. A kind of Amnesty is unfortunately required. Non-citizens are dug into the economy to deeply to not cause a certain amount of economic pain to simply remove them... Not to mention the ethical dilemma of non-citizen parents and spouses of citizens. That is why I suggested We allow them to stay, and then offer the bonus of the right to own American Property for being an American.

-Joe

1. Secure the border

2. If they break the law by illegally entering the country. Then allow them to serve their country in some capacity, in order to gain their citizenship. Either through; the military or public service. Part of the program will include classes designed to enable them to pass a citizenship test.

3. A full background check should be done, to ensure that the illegal doesn't have a criminal background or terrorist roots. Any criminal background gives you a deportation ticket.

4. Under no circumstances, in the program, is the illegal to receive any governmental assistance.

5. If the illegal refuses public service and/or fails a citizenship test, they are to be deported immediately.

 

[Gunny]

That is what I wanted to see!

1. We agree that a secure border is the first step!

2. I'm not sure I would agree with a round up and deportation... doesn't exactly go with the concept of "Freedom", but if We, The People want to take that tack I'll go along.

"Freedom" for the purposes of this discussion would be defined by the US Constitution, correct? Those freedoms are extended to and are the privileges of US citizens. Any and all are denied to criminals.

Illegal immigrants are criminals by the very act of presence on US soil. I do not see that the freedoms in the US Constitution should apply to them.

3. Once again, I think that Free borders will be much easier and cheaper to maintain in the long run. Eventually the world needs to be brought to a condition where Mexicans and others would rather stay home. Free borders will be inevitable in 100 years, whether our children live like the Jetsons because we build on to our infrastructure or like our great grandparents because we destroy part of it. However, if We, The People want to take baby steps to get there I'm all for it. As long as we get our asses in gear here soon.

Free borders are a bad idea for several reasons. One, security. We need to control as best we can who comes and goes in and out of this nation; especially, with the threat of terrorism no longer restricted mainly to the Middle East.

Two, social infrastructure. We already have what amounts to "free borders" and it's destroying our social infraastructure here in the Southwest and West. Illegals are taking from us, and contributing nothing. US taxpaying citzens are footing the bills.

4. Cash hand-outs with no work involved for able-bodied people have puzzled me since I arrived... I'm with you there... LOTS of streets need the litter picked up for starters. But, isn't that kind of a different issue?

I don't see it as a separate issue when one of the excuses for amnesty is that US citizens won't do "those jobs." I'm merly pointing out an available source of manpower to do those jobs.

5. A kind of Amnesty is unfortunately required. Non-citizens are dug into the economy to deeply to not cause a certain amount of economic pain to simply remove them... Not to mention the ethical dilemma of non-citizen parents and spouses of citizens. That is why I suggested We allow them to stay, and then offer the bonus of the right to own American Property for being an American.

-Joe

Consider the economic impact with amensty. Illegals are suddenly legal. They have to be paid minimum wage, and they are required to pay FICA, Social Security and Medicaire.

They have lost thier benefit to the employer. He can ALWAYS hire at minimum wage. He hires illegals so he can pay less. So he lays off the new US citizens and just hires the next crop of illegals to come across, and they WILL keep coming. We did this amnesty thing before and it didn't solve a thing.

In the meantime, the laid off former illegals now US citizens just become another level of bottom of the rung on the economic ladder collecting welfare and/or unemployment.

In effect, amnesty will result in another welfare class.

How is THAT beneficial to this Nation?

 

[AVG-JOE]

So what about the BONUS of only Americans owning American property?

Any incentive there to learn the American language? (which closely resembles but is NOT English!)

-Joe

 

[jreeves]

So what about the BONUS of only Americans owning American property?

Any incentive there to learn the American language? (which closely resembles but is NOT English!)

-Joe

There public service along with passing a citizenship test(which would include fluency in English), would be the only qualifiers for citizenship. Along with of course the clean background.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Well then you didn't address the issue.

As the desert said to the grain of sand.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Immigration can be solved in a few steps.
1 Secure the border. We, The People need to know who is coming and how long they plan to stay.

We, as a country, have the absolute right to decide who can come in, who can be citizens, and what rights non-citizens have.

These areas must be tightened up, especially in regard to the rights of non-citizens.